can't build muscle on a calorie deficit?

Jersey_Devil

Great thread

AsellusReborn

This confuses me can someone clear this up. I hear that you cannot build muscle on a calorie deficit, but I have been doing bootcamp which has circuits and a lot of strength training and while I have lost inches I have gained weight telling me that I have gained muscle I can also see more muscular definition and I am on a calorie deficit. So is that statement really not true or are they talking about something else?

Not trying to be rude, but who cares? What you are doing is working and working well! So keep at it and don't get sucked into this debate. IMO much too much time gets spent on topics like this on MFP. For 90% of the people here it doesn't matter. Lift heavy, cut your calories, do cardio if you want. Do that, and your body will improve every time. What difference does it make as long as you look awesome?

I like this response a lot. As a newbie it really cuts through the junk that floats around. Thank you

mustgetmuscles1

This confuses me can someone clear this up. I hear that you cannot build muscle on a calorie deficit, but I have been doing bootcamp which has circuits and a lot of strength training and while I have lost inches I have gained weight telling me that I have gained muscle I can also see more muscular definition and I am on a calorie deficit. So is that statement really not true or are they talking about something else?

Not trying to be rude, but who cares? What you are doing is working and working well! So keep at it and don't get sucked into this debate. IMO much too much time gets spent on topics like this on MFP. For 90% of the people here it doesn't matter. Lift heavy, cut your calories, do cardio if you want. Do that, and your body will improve every time. What difference does it make as long as you look awesome?

I like this response a lot. As a newbie it really cuts through the junk that floats around. Thank you

I think it may be helpful for some people. Like me I believed it was possible because a few people or products claimed you can "convert" fat to muscle. When it does not happen for 99% of us we feel we must be doing something wrong. We didnt work hard enough or we did the wrong program or whatever. Luckily there are people willing to "politely" let you in on the truth and get your goals back on a realistic level.

MoreBean13

The problem that arises with question is that people think they want more muscle mass when it's often unnecessary- weight lifting will make you look more muscular whether you're building actual muscle mass or not. There's a few reasons:

1) Neuromuscular adaptation is when your nervous system learns to use the muscle you already have- you're able to "fire" muscle fibers that you haven't been using, which makes your muscle feel firm and makes you feel stronger. Most people interpret the muscle firmness and added strength as new muscle- its not, but does it really matter? Muscle firmness and strength are probably the results you were looking for to begin with.

2) When you lose fat, your muscle becomes more visible. You look more muscular just by being less fat, and weightlifting is excellent for promoting the hormonal response that helps you lose fat. So, even without any new muscle tissue, and even if #1 weren't true (which it is) you would look more muscular just by lifting weights. So to the person that asked what's the point when you still have fat to lose, this is the point.

3) As has been mentioned numerous times, there is a beginner period where you can gain muscle on a deficit, but it's short lived and minor. You're not going to get bulky or ripped with newbie gains.

Now, like MustGetMuscle said, there comes a point where some people want to add muscle- at this point you will have to eat at a surplus and work REALLY hard. The average woman has approx. 1/16 the testosterone of a man, and testosterone drives muscle gains- so you can draw your own conclusions about that. For many women, this time may never come, because you get many of the benefits of muscle without new muscle tissue- strength, firmness, fat loss.

To the OP's question, you're probably experiencing some muscular water retention from the new program- It will go away eventually. Often times people don't realize they have water retention going on because you won't feel bloated like if you had too much sodium or TOM, its localized to the muscle. It's what is described as "swole" and can make the muscles look bigger- further perpetuating the myth that you can gain noticeable muscle on a deficit.

Sarauk2sf

The problem that arises with question is that people think they want more muscle mass when it's often unnecessary- weight lifting will make you look more muscular whether you're building actual muscle mass or not. There's a few reasons:

1) Neuromuscular adaptation is when your nervous system learns to use the muscle you already have- you're able to "fire" muscle fibers that you haven't been using, which makes your muscle feel firm and makes you feel stronger. Most people interpret the muscle firmness and added strength as new muscle- its not, but does it really matter? Muscle firmness and strength are probably the results you were looking for to begin with.

2) When you lose fat, your muscle becomes more visible. You look more muscular just by being less fat, and weightlifting is excellent for promoting the hormonal response that helps you lose fat. So, even without any new muscle tissue, and even if #1 weren't true (which it is) you would look more muscular just by lifting weights. So to the person that asked what's the point when you still have fat to lose, this is the point.

3) As has been mentioned numerous times, there is a beginner period where you can gain muscle on a deficit, but it's short lived and minor. You're not going to get bulky or ripped with newbie gains.

Now, like MustGetMuscle said, there comes a point where some people want to add muscle- at this point you will have to eat at a surplus and work REALLY hard. The average woman has approx. 1/16 the testosterone of a man, and testosterone drives muscle gains- so you can draw your own conclusions about that. For many women, this time may never come, because you get many of the benefits of muscle without new muscle tissue- strength, firmness, fat loss.

To the OP's question, you're probably experiencing some muscular water retention from the new program- It will go away eventually. Often times people don't realize they have water retention going on because you won't feel bloated like if you had too much sodium or TOM, its localized to the muscle. It's what is described as "swole" and can make the muscles look bigger- further perpetuating the myth that you can gain noticeable muscle on a deficit.

You know I you don't you?

Fantabulous explanation.

sicchi

I'm on a 1,000 calories per day deficit and can definitely feel muscles growing larger now from my workouts.

no

while i was interested in learning about this topic, thankyou for making my lunchbreak extra special, hahahaha!

MoreBean13

You know I you don't you?

Fantabulous explanation.

Thanks Girrrrrl! you too!

Cliffslosinit

Bump
Thanks to all who were kind enough to explain!
Much Respect......

DavPul

I wish it was possible. I have been putting in a lot of hard work for almost a year while losing my weight. I had the same experience as all new lifters where I actually thought I was gaining mass. Sadly it was not actual mass as everyone has stated above.

I have had a lot of people tell me I am getting bigger but it is just an illusion. I can also get a huge pump from working out and get all swollen which again makes you look bigger but is not real mass. The body I have now would fit inside the overweight body I started with.



About the most you can hope for is maintaining the lean mass you have.


.

^^^^^^^^^^This guy is a perfect illustration of the point I was trying to get across. Thru tons of dedication, sacrifice and hard work, MGM has transformed his body to the nth degree. I dont care what he weighs. I don't care about his BF%. He looks terrific and has achieved the type of results a lot of people are hoping for. I bet his vitals have improved too. I'm both happy for him and jealous as hell.

When his friends say he gained muscle, what they mean is that he got more *muscular*. When I drop weight I lose upwards of an inch off my arms, but the muscle finally showing instead of the fat makes people think my arms got a lot bigger. There's a technical difference, but who cares? I look better and I'm healthier.

The thing that bothers me is people getting too wrapped up in the technicals and get demotivated. "I cant gain muscle on a deficit so why bother strength training ". Nooooooooooooooo. Just do it. You'll get stronger. You'll look better. Just do it.

mustgetmuscles1

When his friends say he gained muscle, what they mean is that he got more *muscular*. When I drop weight I lose upwards of an inch off my arms, but the muscle finally showing instead of the fat makes people think my arms got a lot bigger. There's a technical difference, but who cares? I look better and I'm healthier.

The thing that bothers me is people getting too wrapped up in the technicals and get demotivated. "I cant gain muscle on a deficit so why bother strength training ". Nooooooooooooooo. Just do it. You'll get stronger. You'll look better. Just do it.

Thanks. You are absolutely right. There are soo many benefits to weightlifting even on a deficit. Maintaining muscle is number one and helps continue the weight loss. Muscle is very expensive calorie wise. Having more muscle burns more calories just being there. Since muscle burns calories all day everyday it will actually burn more than going to the gym. Not only that but posture, confidence, stamina, strength, and other health benefits have all improved from lifting heavy.

Sarauk2sf

When his friends say he gained muscle, what they mean is that he got more *muscular*. When I drop weight I lose upwards of an inch off my arms, but the muscle finally showing instead of the fat makes people think my arms got a lot bigger. There's a technical difference, but who cares? I look better and I'm healthier.

The thing that bothers me is people getting too wrapped up in the technicals and get demotivated. "I cant gain muscle on a deficit so why bother strength training ". Nooooooooooooooo. Just do it. You'll get stronger. You'll look better. Just do it.

Thanks. You are absolutely right. There are soo many benefits to weightlifting even on a deficit. Maintaining muscle is number one and helps continue the weight loss. Muscle is very expensive calorie wise. Having more muscle burns more calories just being there. Since muscle burns calories all day everyday it will actually burn more than going to the gym. Not only that but posture, confidence, stamina, strength, and other health benefits have all improved from lifting heavy.

To add to the list of benefits already noted and to expand on the 'other health benefits', weight training is very beneficial to improving bone density, which is particularly important for women as they have a much higher propensity for osteoperosis.

Wonderob

I'm on a 1,000 calories per day deficit and can definitely feel muscles growing larger now from my workouts.

Firstly congratulations on your weight loss so far. I would like to share some maths that might make you change your mind.

You say that you have 100lbs to lose, so I reckon 250lbs will be a good example to use as a starting weight

A realistic body fat percentage for 250 lbs and average height would be 35% - so you would have had over 160 lbs of lean body mass (The amount of weight you carry on your body that isn't fat)

You say that you have have gained big muscles and muscle weighs more than fat per density so let's say you have gained 30 lbs of pure lean muscle - enough for you to notice there. That's your Lean body mass up to 190lbs!

That puts you at 280 lbs

Now your scales tell you that you are 33lbs lighter than you started so you weigh 217 lbs
Therefore:

You was 250 lbs at 35% body fat with 160 lbs of lean body mass

You have lost fat and gained muscle so you are now
217 lbs with 190 lbs of lean body mass

So if you had gained 30lbs of muscle and lost all your weight in fat you would now have a body fat percentage of 12%!


Even if you had retained all you original muscle you would be

217 lbs with 160 lbs of lean muscle mass
26% body fat - which is pretty good, and if your figures are anything like that example then you have done damn well and should be proud

Kara_xxx

You can't gain muscle mass in much quantities as to be any form of noticeable.

Well I must be some strange human anomaly then... :huh:

I am lifting heavy, eat a high protein / high fat / low carb diet and I've been building muscle quite nicely thank you.

amy1612

I'm on a 1,000 calories per day deficit and can definitely feel muscles growing larger now from my workouts.

no

Its a good job no-one is in my office to see me laughing right now.

Wonderob

You can't gain muscle mass in much quantities as to be any form of noticeable.

Well I must be some strange human anomaly then... :huh:

I am lifting heavy, eat a high protein / high fat / low carb diet and I've been building muscle quite nicely thank you.

Hi Kara, would you consider sharing your stats as that would indicate how much you have actually gained in muscle mass

i.e. Start weight and body fat percetage
Current weight and body fat percentage
Calorie consumption v TDEE

I'd be intested to see how it works out

dad106

You can't gain muscle mass in much quantities as to be any form of noticeable.

Well I must be some strange human anomaly then... :huh:

I am lifting heavy, eat a high protein / high fat / low carb diet and I've been building muscle quite nicely thank you.

Did you even read the post or did you just focus on that and decide to jump in?

If your picture is a recent one, that doesn't look like you have gained much muscle to me.

To OP:
You got excellent advice already.. and I have nothing more to add.

mandylooo

The problem that arises with question is that people think they want more muscle mass when it's often unnecessary- weight lifting will make you look more muscular whether you're building actual muscle mass or not. There's a few reasons:

1) Neuromuscular adaptation is when your nervous system learns to use the muscle you already have- you're able to "fire" muscle fibers that you haven't been using, which makes your muscle feel firm and makes you feel stronger. Most people interpret the muscle firmness and added strength as new muscle- its not, but does it really matter? Muscle firmness and strength are probably the results you were looking for to begin with.

Is this neuromuscular adaptation accompanied by an increase in muscle size which is not just due to water?

Matt_Wild

You can't gain muscle mass in much quantities as to be any form of noticeable.

Well I must be some strange human anomaly then... :huh:

I am lifting heavy, eat a high protein / high fat / low carb diet and I've been building muscle quite nicely thank you.

You are no doubt revealing what you had before you dieted.

I'd love for you to tell me how you build muscle (calorie excess) in a diet (a calorie deficit).

What most people completely miss is MUSCLE is mainly redundant in survival. Which is what they body and its hormonal systems are designed for. It doesn't make any genetic sense for the body to waste crucial life giving energy when it is in a state of decline in terms of calories.

dinosnopro

You can't gain muscle mass in much quantities as to be any form of noticeable.

Well I must be some strange human anomaly then... :huh:

I am lifting heavy, eat a high protein / high fat / low carb diet and I've been building muscle quite nicely thank you.

Hey, look a special snowflake.

MoreBean13

The problem that arises with question is that people think they want more muscle mass when it's often unnecessary- weight lifting will make you look more muscular whether you're building actual muscle mass or not. There's a few reasons:

1) Neuromuscular adaptation is when your nervous system learns to use the muscle you already have- you're able to "fire" muscle fibers that you haven't been using, which makes your muscle feel firm and makes you feel stronger. Most people interpret the muscle firmness and added strength as new muscle- its not, but does it really matter? Muscle firmness and strength are probably the results you were looking for to begin with.

Is this neuromuscular adaptation accompanied by an increase in muscle size which is not just due to water?

I don't really know how to answer this question :ohwell:
In the beginning of strength training, when the possibility for newbie gains exists, I suppose it's possible- but its unlikely you will see a continuing size increase.

Here is a graph taken from my Exercise Physiology text that might help illustrate what happens:

but I realize this doesn't directly answer your question. I will look more in to it and see if I can find a better answer for you, but my inclination is to say that it's possible for a short time to get some hypertrophy with strength training on a deficit.

ETA: Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will come along and answer this since I really don't know.

mustgetmuscles1

no

Sorry I had to come back just for this. LOL

mmapags

You can't gain muscle mass in much quantities as to be any form of noticeable.

Well I must be some strange human anomaly then... :huh:

I am lifting heavy, eat a high protein / high fat / low carb diet and I've been building muscle quite nicely thank you.

Hey, look a special snowflake.

ROFL!!

Great explanation MoreBean!

PercivalHackworth

Everything has been pretty much said around.
If you guys still think you can really build muscles in deficit, do you really think a weakened body (a deficit is a pretty self-explanatory word) will achieve muscle synthesis ? Nothing comes out from thin air. And the process is a very costly one, immune system prevention, or any other function amongst the thousands the body does are the priority when there is a deficit, building new - rather than preserving almost never occur.

Sarauk2sf

The problem that arises with question is that people think they want more muscle mass when it's often unnecessary- weight lifting will make you look more muscular whether you're building actual muscle mass or not. There's a few reasons:

1) Neuromuscular adaptation is when your nervous system learns to use the muscle you already have- you're able to "fire" muscle fibers that you haven't been using, which makes your muscle feel firm and makes you feel stronger. Most people interpret the muscle firmness and added strength as new muscle- its not, but does it really matter? Muscle firmness and strength are probably the results you were looking for to begin with.

Is this neuromuscular adaptation accompanied by an increase in muscle size which is not just due to water?

I don't really know how to answer this question :ohwell:
In the beginning of strength training, when the possibility for newbie gains exists, I suppose it's possible- but its unlikely you will see a continuing size increase.

Here is a graph taken from my Exercise Physiology text that might help illustrate what happens:

but I realize this doesn't directly answer your question. I will look more in to it and see if I can find a better answer for you, but my inclination is to say that it's possible for a short time to get some hypertrophy with strength training on a deficit.

ETA: Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will come along and answer this since I really don't know.

This is also my understanding. Muscle mass increases by increasing the size of your existing muscle cells. You generally can only do this at a surlpus. You can get strength gains on a deficit because you are using the muscle mass you have more effectively. An increase in size however requires hypertrophy which only happens on a surplus or for 'newbie' gains or for relatively signifcantly overweight individuals. The size gains for a newbie is sort of like using your muscle to its full potential without extra fuel, is relatively small and has a 'shelf life' as that potential will be met at some point without additional fuel (surplus). For non-newbies, that potential has basically been met.

mcarter99

Does anyone know how limited this 'newbie gains' thing usually is? I was reading McDonald's Rapid Fat Loss Handbook the other day and I thought he said something like someone new to lifting could grow muscle at a deficit for a couple MONTHS or something. It seems like you could do some not-insignificant changing to a smallish female body within months.

mustgetmuscles1

Does anyone know how limited this 'newbie gains' thing usually is? I was reading McDonald's Rapid Fat Loss Handbook the other day and I thought he said something like someone new to lifting could grow muscle at a deficit for a couple MONTHS or something. It seems like you could do some not-insignificant changing to a smallish female body within months.

A couple weeks, up to a couple months but it still wont be much. Maybe like a pound or two spread out over the whole body probably wont even be noticeable.

lizziebeth1028

I'm on a 1,000 calories per day deficit and can definitely feel muscles growing larger now from my workouts.

no

Agree totally and found this the funniest post I've seen in ages!

1000 calories a day = starvation, fatigue, muscle loss, hair loss

Sarauk2sf

Does anyone know how limited this 'newbie gains' thing usually is? I was reading McDonald's Rapid Fat Loss Handbook the other day and I thought he said something like someone new to lifting could grow muscle at a deficit for a couple MONTHS or something. It seems like you could do some not-insignificant changing to a smallish female body within months.

My understanding is that it pretty much is exhausted within 6 months (rough estimate). From a size perspective, we are only talking about 1 -2 lb max in general (excluding water retention). It is all subjective obviously, but a combination of the definition you get from the small size gains combined with the drop in body fat can make a pretty impressive visual impact within a few months in my opinion.

ETA: the law of diminishing returns applies to the 'window'.

wgn4166

I'm on a 1,000 calories per day deficit and can definitely feel muscles growing larger now from my workouts.

no

Well this just cracked me up!!!! HAHAHA

33neenaj

I'm on a 1,000 calories per day deficit and can definitely feel muscles growing larger now from my workouts.

no

lol