Car-bo-hy-drate.

Dave198lbs

With all due respect, your info on burning fat instead of carbs for glycogen replacement is just plain wrong. Fat is not a substitute for glycogen for endurance or other higher intensity activities.

so when glycogen stores are depleted does the marathon runner just sit down? or does he have enough stored glycogen to run the entire 26 miles?

Hitting the wall forces you to slow down. The easy way around it is to ingest carbs before and during the run to increase blood glucose and reduce reliance on glycogen stores.

maximum glcogen storage is what? 2 hours for a trained athelete? so are you saying every marathon runner is ingesting carbs during the race? the runner never uses stored fat for energy?

MaraDiaz

The problem with fast carbs / sugars is that they are very habit forming and the more you have the more you want of them. People find it very hard to be 'moderate' with fast carb foods.

Like someone said on another thread... the difference between carbs and protein... "when have you last heard someone going on a protein binge...?!"

This is why I'm low carb. I plan to start running and working out heavily this Winter. I'll gladly chow down on some pasta before my workouts if I think I need it.

One thing about that protein binge, I thought I was in danger of doing that based on the fact that I used to be able to eat 2 double quarter pounders with cheese at one sitting in a binge mood, with or without fries and drink. I could also eat a one pound Fuddruckers burger in a sitting. Funny, now that I eat my hamburgers without a bun, I have zero urge to stuff myself like that. So what was I really craving? Was it the bread? Was all that greasy meat and cheese just filler?

sjweld

A good article on Web MD (what I consider a good scientific source rather than a bunch of ideas and thoughts tossed out with no scientific backing as you asked for)

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/features/carbohydrates

Even in the science world, I'm sure you'll find conflicting data. When looking at scientific studies, it is important to find how many people were included in studies, if you can find this information. Also, were they controlled groups or uncontrolled groups?

For me, I look at the % of carbs/fat/protein. This shows up on the MFP app and also on the Fitbit site (and I'm sure there are some other places, but these are the two I use). I wish MFP would show the ratios from your diet on the website too. I don't know why you can get that data on the app but not on the website. The pie chart on MFP app also shows the recommended % for each and I try hard to stay with in that. I also try to eat whole grains and veggies, though I do like my ice cream in the evening.

MaraDiaz

Also, most of us here are burning our fat stores, hence, losing weight. So aren't we all to some extent using a mix of fuel and putting our bodies to some extent in ketosis?

I've been wondering about that, actually. Is that right?

CommandaPanda

Actually, endurance exercise is not hurt in the slightest by being low carb as long as you have sufficient fat reserves/intake to fuel your body through the exercise. I've actually run across some interesting results showing that being in a state of nutritional ketosis is actually better for endurance exercise than in a carb fed state because your body is already out of glycogen when you start exercising so it has no choice but to run on fat stores. Most endurance athletes deplete their muscle glycogen stores within about 2 hours of work (hitting the wall), but if you start without those reserves you can go much longer before you run out of fuel since your body stores much much more energy in fat than it does in glycogen. Ketosis does hurt your maximum power output, so it's not ideal for sprinters or powerlifters for example, but it seems to be either neutral or a small net positive for endurance sports.

Here's an interview with Peter Attia (his blog is migrating to a new server so it's inaccessible right now, but I'll link to it anyway for future reference): http://asweetlife.org/a-sweet-life-staff/featured/the-ketogenic-diet-and-peter-attias-war-on-insulin/24184/

Dr. Attia's Blog post on the interplay of ketosis and exercise:
http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/the-interplay-of-exercise-and-ketosis-part-i

I 100% agree with you.

I've been doing the Cyclical Ketogenic Diet for a few weeks now and have broken every plateau I've hit as well as made significant progress. I'm taking in <30g of carbs/day and allow myself a 30 hour period on the weekend to replenish my glycogen stores. I'm also heavy into power lifting as well as sprinting and I can say that the keto diet, as effective as it is for fat loss, takes a toll on your energy in the gym or out on the track (for us sprinters).

Very well stated, my friend.

yarwell

The fitter you are and/or the slower you run the less carbs you need to do a marathon :

mmapags

With all due respect, your info on burning fat instead of carbs for glycogen replacement is just plain wrong. Fat is not a substitute for glycogen for endurance or other higher intensity activities.

so when glycogen stores are depleted does the marathon runner just sit down? or does he have enough stored glycogen to run the entire 26 miles?

Hitting the wall forces you to slow down. The easy way around it is to ingest carbs before and during the run to increase blood glucose and reduce reliance on glycogen stores.

Not only does it force you to slow down but, according to all accounts, they call it hitting the wall because that's what it feels like. For the body to adapt to the change over is very stressful and cortisol producing. Even low carb advocate Mark Sisson advocates upping carbs for endurance sports but hey, if you want to work out on nothing but fat as fuel and feel like crap and have trouble with recovery, go right ahead.

LoraF83

well if youre mainly eating veggies and protein youll lose faster, not to mention its wayyy healthier. that being said when i was in college i got to my lowest weight and i ate a big piece of cake every single day. along with pizza, cereal and other carb filled college foods lol. i was just so busy that i didnt eat but one slice of pizza where now i can have 3 or 4..huge diff. you can still enjoy food you just have to think what got you unhappy with your weight in the first place..probably not carbs but simply eating too many. i def love carbs tho! goodluck be gentle with yourself too, do whats good for you.

You won't lose faster just because there are fewer carbs in your diet. You lose because you are eating fewer calories. Your explanation of your weight in college pretty much sums it up - you didn't eat as much, so you lost weight.

Some people like low carb. Some people are successful on it. But carbs are not the magic key to weight loss (unless you have a medical condition that would make carb intake a problem).

Carbs are fuel. You want to train to run a 10k? Carbs can help you do that. A lot of runners eat carbs before long runs so they have energy. There are whole articles devoted to it in running magazines.

I personally eat carbs - pizza, rice, bread, bagels, fruit, veggies, etc. I'm still losing weight - simply because I have a calorie deficit.

There's another piece to your analysis. There are people who are insulin sensitive. White carbs especially really throw that off. Not all are as several sensitive to be diabetic or hypoglycemic however, reducing carb intake makes a huge difference in the way the calories are expended AND how hungry you are.

Protein is fuel too, carbs especially white carbs are quick fuel and for us insulin sensitive folks that's the issue. Since I'm not a runner I can't speak to that, but I get all the fuel I need with my protein intake.

Note that I said "unless you have a medical condition that would make carb intake a problem" - insulin resistance would fall into that category right?

I also said that "carb can help you" train for long distance running. I am a runner, training for a half marathon, and I find carbs to be very helpful in my training. Protein is too, of course, but carbs have an important place.

cartrat

yay! first post ever!

being on a low-carb diet for about 2 weeks makes me wonder why i never thought to do it before. the weight falls off much easier and i never feel starved ever. seriously, i'm not looking back. i plan to go paleo once i get down to my goal weight. yes, i am doing it for vanity reasons (i'm getting married soon) but also for medical reasons too. after having problems and reading and talking with my doctor, yeast and sugar wreak havoc on a woman's reproductive system. not the good sugar that's in fruit--in fact, i hear pure cranberry juice and grapefruit juice are super good for us ladies--but the bad that's in cokes and whatnot. some women are more sensitive than others, of course, but ever since i've completely cut out wheat, whole grains and sugar, my life in the weight aspect as well in the personal aspect has changed for the better. i shop smarter, feel healthier, eat better and will now look better. of course it's not for everyone because we're all wonderful unique snowflakes, but in my personal experience, i'm plan to make more of a lifestyle than diet.

kaervaak

With all due respect, your info on burning fat instead of carbs for glycogen replacement is just plain wrong. Fat is not a substitute for glycogen for endurance or other higher intensity activities. Anyone who thinks it is should try it and see how you feel after the first mile or so. Also, see how well you recover. Also, Attia is a just plain quack!

Here's a link to a study showing exactly what I stated: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0026049583901063

Pedal ergometer testing of maximal oxygen uptake (V̇O2max) was unchanged between the control week (EBD-1) and week 3 of the ketogenic diet (EKD-3). The mean ergometer endurance time for continuous exercise to exhaustion (ENDUR) at 62%–64% of V̇O2max was 147 minutes at EBD-1 and 151 minutes at EKD-4. The ENDUR steady-state RQ dropped from 0.83 to 0.72 (P < 0.01) from EBD-1 to EKD-4. In agreement with this were a three-fold drop in glucose oxidation (from 15.1 to 5.1 mg/kg/min, P < 0.05) and a four-fold reduction in muscle glycogen use (0.61 to 0.13 mmol/kg/min, P < 0.01). Neither clinical nor biochemical evidence of hypoglycemia was observed during ENDUR at EKD-4. These results indicate that aerobic endurance exercise by well-trained cyclists was not compromised by four weeks of ketosis. This was accomplished by a dramatic physiologic adaptation that conserved limited carbohydrate stores (both glucose and muscle glycogen) and made fat the predominant muscle substrate at this submaximal power level.

mmapags

With all due respect, your info on burning fat instead of carbs for glycogen replacement is just plain wrong. Fat is not a substitute for glycogen for endurance or other higher intensity activities. Anyone who thinks it is should try it and see how you feel after the first mile or so. Also, see how well you recover. Also, Attia is a just plain quack!

Here's a link to a study showing exactly what I stated: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0026049583901063

Pedal ergometer testing of maximal oxygen uptake (V̇O2max) was unchanged between the control week (EBD-1) and week 3 of the ketogenic diet (EKD-3). The mean ergometer endurance time for continuous exercise to exhaustion (ENDUR) at 62%–64% of V̇O2max was 147 minutes at EBD-1 and 151 minutes at EKD-4. The ENDUR steady-state RQ dropped from 0.83 to 0.72 (P < 0.01) from EBD-1 to EKD-4. In agreement with this were a three-fold drop in glucose oxidation (from 15.1 to 5.1 mg/kg/min, P < 0.05) and a four-fold reduction in muscle glycogen use (0.61 to 0.13 mmol/kg/min, P < 0.01). Neither clinical nor biochemical evidence of hypoglycemia was observed during ENDUR at EKD-4. These results indicate that aerobic endurance exercise by well-trained cyclists was not compromised by four weeks of ketosis. This was accomplished by a dramatic physiologic adaptation that conserved limited carbohydrate stores (both glucose and muscle glycogen) and made fat the predominant muscle substrate at this submaximal power level.

Well that's conclusive based on a whopping total sample of 5 cyclists and no high carb control group. Seriously?

kaervaak

Well that's conclusive based on a whopping total sample of 5 cyclists and no high carb control group. Seriously?

OK, sure. Criticism noted.
Here's some more:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/k4l6436785p5v354/
Again, only a sample size of 5 trained cyclists, but they did have a high carb control.

These results would suggest that 2 weeks of adaptation to a high- fat diet would result in an enhanced resistance to fatigue and significant sparing of endogenous carbohydrate during low to moderate intensity exercise in a relatively glycogen-depleted sate and unimpaired performance during high intensity exercise.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC371554/
6 subjects this time, 5 female, 1 male, all overweight and untrained.

The low RQ and the fact that blood glucose and muscle glycogen were maintained during exhausting exercise after 6 wk of a PSF suggest that prolonged ketosis results in an adaptation, after which lipid becomes the major metabolic fuel, and net carbohydrate utilization is markedly reduced during moderate but ultimately exhausting exercise.

I could find more I'm sure, but 3 peer reviewed studies that come to the same conclusion are enough for me.

TheVimFuego

I do it because it works for me and it's backed by science.

mmapags

Well that's conclusive based on a whopping total sample of 5 cyclists and no high carb control group. Seriously?

OK, sure. Criticism noted.
Here's some more:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/k4l6436785p5v354/
Again, only a sample size of 5 trained cyclists, but they did have a high carb control.

These results would suggest that 2 weeks of adaptation to a high- fat diet would result in an enhanced resistance to fatigue and significant sparing of endogenous carbohydrate during low to moderate intensity exercise in a relatively glycogen-depleted sate and unimpaired performance during high intensity exercise.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC371554/
6 subjects this time, 5 female, 1 male, all overweight and untrained.

The low RQ and the fact that blood glucose and muscle glycogen were maintained during exhausting exercise after 6 wk of a PSF suggest that prolonged ketosis results in an adaptation, after which lipid becomes the major metabolic fuel, and net carbohydrate utilization is markedly reduced during moderate but ultimately exhausting exercise.

I could find more I'm sure, but 3 peer reviewed studies that come to the same conclusion are enough for me.

These would be better how? Sample size is just as small. One has a control group, one does not. 2nd study is with obese and untrained subjects. They would show improvement just by going from an untrained to a trained state.You are going to chose to believe whatever supports your already formed conclusion and find whatever questionable study you can to support that. That is your perogative.

To those weighing both sides of this issue, I'd ask what do thousands of proffesional atheletes whose pay depends on their performace do? Low carb or maintain glycogen stores for max exercise performance and max maintainence of lean muscle tissue?

Jules2Be

Are there carbs in Scooby Snacks?

LorinaLynn

I don't limit my carbs - I had pizza last night, and I'm having mac & cheese and a baked potato tonight - but I make sure I'm close to my 50% carbs, 25% each fat & protein, ratios.

Someone who has adverse reactions to carbs, whether it's intensified cravings, diabetes, or a gluten intolerance, would be wise to limit them. Everyone else? Enjoy!

kaervaak

These would be better how? Sample size is just as small. One has a control group, one does not. 2nd study is with obese and untrained subjects. They would show improvement just by going from an untrained to a trained state.You are going to chose to believe whatever supports your already formed conclusion and find whatever questionable study you can to support that. That is your perogative.

To those weighing both sides of this issue, I'd ask what do thousands of proffesional atheletes whose pay depends on their performace do? Low carb or maintain glycogen stores for max exercise performance and max maintainence of lean muscle tissue?

This debate has never been about professional athletes. You made the claim that my information on the way that fat stores can be used as a replacement for glycogen in keto-adapted people was wrong. I was simply attempting to rebut that argument by presenting you with at the very least, anecdotal evidence from a number of different sources that supported my claim.

70davis

Bump

davidsgirl145

I'm pretty sick of worrying about it. No offense at all to anyone who does. I've just worried myself to death aboout it. I just want to eat as healthy as i can and lose weight. Honestly, there was a time when I didn't know what a carb was. I was active and I ate when I was hungry..end of story. Somewhere along the way, I stopped doing that and became obsessed with all the ratios. (and got fat). I don't have a medical condition (except, maybe over obsessing, lol), so I'm going to eat what I want in whatever ratio it turns out to be. (as long as I'm making the best choices I can for that day... And BE ACTIVE! there, I said my peace. lol

davidsgirl145

Oh, and I can not state ANYthing on professional athletes/runners. I ran the whole way around a track once and just about threw a party. lol

onedayillbeamilf

Aww. I thought this was going to be a thread breaking all the macros into syllables.

Pro-tein

myfitnessval

I limit carbs because foods with carbs generally have a lot of calories too, and they don't really fill me up. But I'm not a super low carb person or anything. 40% of my intake is carbs.

this pretty much. i have a carb addiction so even limiting my intake to 40 is pretty tough but i basically cut out the stuff thats not good for me and replace it with higher fiber things.

splucy

I don't know about everybody else but I crash sooooo badly if I don't get a good source of carbs for breakfast/lunch.

At night time, I avoid carbs and this is because I have heard that carbs = energy and sleeping converts that unused energy in to fat. Hey, I could be wrong! but I also find that I sleep better this way.

splucy

in saying that, I really do depend on energy around 6pm as that is when I go to the gym.

If I do not intend on going to the gym or anything, then I tend to have a lower carb lunch like a salad.

jppd47

I have heard that carbs = energy and sleeping converts that unused energy in to fat. Hey, I could be wrong! but I also find that I sleep better this way.

Well if thats the case, fat and protein also= energy so you should avoid them at night too.

nothing to worry about there, if you eat a surplus your body will store, if not it will uses wheat it needs to fuel you