Hunter-gatherers vs Westerners

_VoV

I just read an interesting study on how hunter-gatherers burn about the same number of calories as Westerners do. You would think all that physically-demanding food gathering over the course of the day would burn tons of calories, but it apparently doesn't. What do you think? Are the laws of thermodynamics more complicated than we think?


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/07/120725200304.htm

Bentley2718

I don't know much about thermodynamics, but I do know the body is a very complex thing, so the idea that we don't full understand energy expenditures doesn't phase me a bit--in fact, even without this new study, I would find it a stretch if someone tried to argue that we fully understand how the human body makes use of energy resources.

That said, I'd be interested to see if the result change much if they had matched samples on weight, height, body fat, sex, and age instead of using regression based controls for these factors--they might have had enough westerners to do this. I suspect the take-home message would be the same, but I'm curious about these things.

penrbrown

I do think we, as a society, eat WAY too much. Way more then we need to.

I've read so many articles about portion sizes and what we actually need and it seems to me we were raised being given plates that would have fed three to four people!

Anyway, even if our increased weight is due only to increased food intake... I think increased physical activity is vital for good health.

Interesting article!

_VoV

In my experience, calorie restriction has always been the key thing to losing weight. Now, maintaining it? That I believe might be another matter and exercise might be a more vital ingredient in keeping the pounds from coming back.

mfanyafujo

I'm living in Tanzania right now, and what amazed me at first is how my neighbors stay fit given their diets. Lots of carbs, lots of fried foods... granted, many are farmers and do get a lot of exercise, but their portion sizes are huge!!! I'm always getting comments about how little I eat, and yet, I've gained weight on a Tanzanian diet, despite exercise. It's hard to account for the difference, unless we consider my previous eating habits (what my body is used to) and ancestry/genetics.

_VoV

I'm living in Tanzania right now, and what amazed me at first is how my neighbors stay fit given their diets. Lots of carbs, lots of fried foods... granted, many are farmers and do get a lot of exercise, but their portion sizes are huge!!! I'm always getting comments about how little I eat, and yet, I've gained weight on a Tanzanian diet, despite exercise. It's hard to account for the difference, unless we consider my previous eating habits (what my body is used to) and ancestry/genetics.

That's really interesting! So, maybe the hunter-gatherers were underreporting their food intake. Another sad study comes to mind though, and that's the one from earlier this year that said that people who lose weight burn fewer calories than people who are the same weight, but have always been that weight.

VegesaurusRex

Are you exercising as much as they do?

I do believe exercise can control weight, and I am somewhat suspicious about this study because the results are counter intuitive (doesn't make them wrong, of course.)

I do not give any credence at all to the "Paleo" diet, but it stands to reason that a farmer who works all day in the field burns more calories than a typical sedentary American.

weathergirl320

I was about to post this as well. Love this! There is way more to it than eat less move more.

Bentley2718

I'm living in Tanzania right now, and what amazed me at first is how my neighbors stay fit given their diets. Lots of carbs, lots of fried foods... granted, many are farmers and do get a lot of exercise, but their portion sizes are huge!!! I'm always getting comments about how little I eat, and yet, I've gained weight on a Tanzanian diet, despite exercise. It's hard to account for the difference, unless we consider my previous eating habits (what my body is used to) and ancestry/genetics.

That's really interesting! So, maybe the hunter-gatherers were underreporting their food intake. Another sad study comes to mind though, and that's the one from earlier this year that said that people who lose weight burn fewer calories than people who are the same weight, but have always been that weight.

It doesn't sound like the people mfanyafujo is living around are hunter-gatherers.

Also, intake was *not* measured as part of this study, because it was not the subject of this study. Instead, this study estimated energy *expenditures*.

_VoV

I'm living in Tanzania right now, and what amazed me at first is how my neighbors stay fit given their diets. Lots of carbs, lots of fried foods... granted, many are farmers and do get a lot of exercise, but their portion sizes are huge!!! I'm always getting comments about how little I eat, and yet, I've gained weight on a Tanzanian diet, despite exercise. It's hard to account for the difference, unless we consider my previous eating habits (what my body is used to) and ancestry/genetics.

That's really interesting! So, maybe the hunter-gatherers were underreporting their food intake. Another sad study comes to mind though, and that's the one from earlier this year that said that people who lose weight burn fewer calories than people who are the same weight, but have always been that weight.

It doesn't sound like the people mfanyafujo is living around are hunter-gatherers.

Yes, I think the region matters less than the lifestyle does. Farming in Africa is likely to be different than hunting and gathering in Africa.

Bentley2718

Are you exercising as much as they do?

I do believe exercise can control weight, and I am somewhat suspicious about this study because the results are counter intuitive (doesn't make them wrong, of course.)

I do not give any credence at all to the "Paleo" diet, but it stands to reason that a farmer who works all day in the field burns more calories than a typical sedentary American.

The main message of the study is that even though the hunter-gathers were more active than their western counter-parts, they did not burn any more energy. The results section of the actual paper (which is here, for free: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0040503 ) suggests that a lower percentage of calories on their base metabolic rate (BMR) than westerners did.

islandmonkey

These studies tend to involve anthropologists actually weighing and measuring the food intake (vs. self-reporting). Doesn't really apply here as this study doesn't appear to have looked at food intake (just expenditure).

It's rare to find true hunter-gatherers anymore though. (and I need to point out that farmers vs. hunter-gatheres is a very different thing). Even true hunter-gatheres don't spend nearly as much time obtaining food as you would think.


Finally, I find it difficult to believe there could be a specific, accurate measurement of calories/energy burned. And without also looking at intake, and also doing this study over multiple seasonal cycles, I think there is just nothing here that's comparable.

That's really interesting! So, maybe the hunter-gatherers were underreporting their food intake. Another sad study comes to mind though, and that's the one from earlier this year that said that people who lose weight burn fewer calories than people who are the same weight, but have always been that weight.

mfanyafujo

I'm living in Tanzania right now, and what amazed me at first is how my neighbors stay fit given their diets. Lots of carbs, lots of fried foods... granted, many are farmers and do get a lot of exercise, but their portion sizes are huge!!! I'm always getting comments about how little I eat, and yet, I've gained weight on a Tanzanian diet, despite exercise. It's hard to account for the difference, unless we consider my previous eating habits (what my body is used to) and ancestry/genetics.

That's really interesting! So, maybe the hunter-gatherers were underreporting their food intake. Another sad study comes to mind though, and that's the one from earlier this year that said that people who lose weight burn fewer calories than people who are the same weight, but have always been that weight.

It doesn't sound like the people mfanyafujo is living around are hunter-gatherers.

Yes, I think the region matters less than the lifestyle does. Farming in Africa is likely to be different than hunting and gathering in Africa.

Actually, based on what I've seen, I think sometimes the farming lifestyle is harder than hunting and gathering. Even for simple sustenance farming, the required amount of land and crop output is pretty large. Now imagine that you have to plow up a several acres of a dry, hard, rocky field every year (by hand). For some of the crops, like the root crops, the harvesting process is even more difficult. What kills me is seeing five year olds walking several miles every morning at dawn with tools in hand, headed for the family farm.

Farming is difficult. Gathering - not so much. Hunting - depends on what they are after. The people I live around do a little of everything.

islandmonkey

From the article:
"In fact, the Hadza spend a greater percentage of their daily energy budget on physical activity than Westerners do"

Huh? What exactly are the Westerners spending their energy on, then...? (if they are apparently expending the same energy)


Is this straight up energy consumption? Is this consumption per lb of body weight? Per lb of body fat? This summary of the actual research is fairly meaningless without more detail.

Coco_UK

Sorry guys, but why would you need food to record someone's metabolic rate? Isn't that the process where they stick a tube on your mouth and make you breath through your mouth for ages... at least that is how they used to do it. I think hospitals have more advanced (and less gag inducing) methods now?

jnhu72

As a hunter, I can tell you that a lot of it is sitting and waiting for the animal. Sure, there is walking from stand to stand, or trailing a deer but for the most part it's a waiting game-at least for my dad and me it is.

Bentley2718

These studies tend to involve anthropologists actually weighing and measuring the food intake (vs. self-reporting). Doesn't really apply here as this study doesn't appear to have looked at food intake (just expenditure).

It's rare to find true hunter-gatherers anymore though. (and I need to point out that farmers vs. hunter-gatheres is a very different thing). Even true hunter-gatheres don't spend nearly as much time obtaining food as you would think.


Finally, I find it difficult to believe there could be a specific, accurate measurement of calories/energy burned. And without also looking at intake, and also doing this study over multiple seasonal cycles, I think there is just nothing here that's comparable.

Caloric expenditure was measured via o2 intake and co2 output, as well as though something to do with water metabolism (I don't understand that particularly well). Although this is certainly not my area, it is my understanding is that monitoring breathing is a fairly accurate way to measure caloric expenditure.

As far as comparability, they compared energy expenditures over a period of time in hunter-gathers to energy expenditures of westerners over a similar period--while there may be issues, I don't think this is a case of apples and oranges.

Bentley2718

From the article:
"In fact, the Hadza spend a greater percentage of their daily energy budget on physical activity than Westerners do"

Huh? What exactly are the Westerners spending their energy on, then...? (if they are apparently expending the same energy)


Is this straight up energy consumption? Is this consumption per lb of body weight? Per lb of body fat? This summary of the actual research is fairly meaningless without more detail.

All of these questions could be answered by reading the actual empirical article, which is linked to at the bottom of the popular article. I'll even post it (again) here: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0040503

LastSixtySix

A few foward (or backward, as the case may be!) doctors have been using this and similar science for a few years now to encourage health in their patients - that our bodies and brains are perfect for their natural purposes, but none of them was designed for modern Western life - fast food, TV or. . .for that matter, retirement! Just because we have only ever lived in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries, it has been our mistake to assume that we humans were "made" for this sedentary life.

Bodies in fact seemed to have been designed for life in nature, where only the fittest survived. To think that in the last couple hundred years we could undo millions and billions of years of evolution is crazy. Our body accepts no language except that of digestion or no digestion, movement or non-movement. If we eat too much, our bodies think that we are stocking up for a long period of famine and it will hoard the excess calories to keep us alive longer. I did this for decades working in business and my body never learned that it had more than enough food! Compounded is the stress factor of our too busy lives. Our bodies read the additional and constant anxiety as death is imminent and it takes the only appropriate measures it knows to try and keep us alive. If we eat too little, our bodies think that all the food is gone and will hord the calories to keep us alive longer. We need to keep our bodies believing that there is enough but not too much. It's a tightrope.

Dr. Henry S. Lodge has been working this angle of health for a few years, since before 2004. For laymen's terms for this process, read "Younger Next Year for Women". It's based on similar empirical evidence as this study.

-Debra

weathergirl320

So interesting

laus_8882

As a hunter, I can tell you that a lot of it is sitting and waiting for the animal. Sure, there is walking from stand to stand, or trailing a deer but for the most part it's a waiting game-at least for my dad and me it is.

That sounds reasonable. I can't imagine a hunter being effective while running around in the scrub all day screaming 'animals, animals, come to my tummy!!!!!'