Hunter-gatherers vs Westerners

freerange

Sure, right. And how many hours do I have to waste trying to prove a negative. Forget it. If you can't prove you know what you are talking about, I will simply form a logical opinion about what you believe.

you are free to do that. Again I already posted them you said you would ignore them, so why would I go thru the trouble of posting them again. Your mind is already made up, and it's based on your bias toward the unhealthy lifestyle you are living.

Your posts were not by reputable scientists, in fact not even scientists. They were by people blogging and giving their own opinion. You said you had reputable scientists who had "debunked the China Study." Name one or simply admit that you don't know what you are talking about.

LOL and your link to an opinion piece in the NYtimes or whatever rag it was in, was? Reputable, how?

freerange

Sure, right. And how many hours do I have to waste trying to prove a negative. Forget it. If you can't prove you know what you are talking about, I will simply form a logical opinion about what you believe.

You come on here, to a thread that had NOTHING to do with the paleo diet and start with your veggie propaganda, and your strawmen. I understand you veggies like to think you're superior to us meat eaters, but please keep it on your little veggie sites and leave the rest of us that live in the real world alone. I like to eat prey animals, I even like to go out and kill them myself. So while you're out there killing a poor defenseless cabbage, I'm killing a big fat juicy deer, big deal.

Wow! What a man! Do you also torture cats and dogs. I bet you even say you love animals. Creepy.

And you are the man for killing cabbage that has no chance of running away? Now that is creepy.

freerange

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Wow! Knowing what you would and wouldn't do means you actually thought about it. Okay, so tell me how would you survive. No wait -don't tell me. We're back to eating worms and bugs aren't we?
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Dang you ever get tired of being wrong, didn't your mommy ever tell you about making assumptions? I wouldn't take a rifle because I hunt with a bow, gee it's really just that simple, I don't live in the mountains with cantina wire surrounding my fort, and a stock pile of weapons and freeze dried food.

So you would bring a manufactured bow and industrial arrows. Wow! That is sure going native.

1st I never said I was going native, what was that term again, strawman?
2nd you really should stop while you have some semblance of self respect left, I make my own equipment, thank you very much.

freerange

I don't eat meat for ethical reasons.

BINGO, and this is why anyone wanting a real opinion about a diet that has meat in it should take what this guy says with less than a grain of salt.

Ethical reasons? HA, so I assume (I know, but in this case it's a real educated guess) your ethical reasons involve not killing animals?

freerange

What is the "China Diet?" I have never heard of that.

The China Study, on the other had has yet to be seriously debunked. It has some problems, and Campbell the author of the study stated that given hindsight he might have done some things differently, but by no means did he ever state that his study had been "debunked." As far as I know, no one else with any scientific credentials has ever said that either.

Yes I meant China study, and really a person that did a study saying his study hasn't been debunked, now there's a shock.

http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/ (debunk)

http://www.foodrenegade.com/the-china-study-discredited/ (debunk)

http://freetheanimal.com/2010/07/t-colin-campbells-the-china-study-finally-exhaustively-discredited.html (debunk)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x5TKlTJLpE (and for those that can't read here is a you tube debunk)

Some of these overlap, please look at the links to actual studies, don't come back with these are just bloggers or whatever.

Right?! The China Study/ Campbell has been discredited for quite a while now.

Really? Here we go again. Kindly give me one source A CREDIBLE REPUTABLE SCIENTIFIC SOURCE where that study has been discredited. I am not talking about some gal's blog where she wants to show off her statistics 102.

Please stop asking for information you are only going to ignore. LOL

freerange

http://jonnybowdenblog.com/why-i-am-not-a-vegetarian/

“China Study” by Campbell represents, as mentioned, his conclusions about this data – conclusions which have been fiercely debated, by the way. He uses hand selected, cherry picked data from the study to support his rabid pro-vegan position and leaves out everything that contradicts it.

(Campbell is associated with Physicians for Responsible Medicine, a vegan animal rights group masquerading as a responsible medical organization.)

At one point, defending his “anti-animal protein” position, Campbell quoted a study done at Harvard University which, he said, had reached the exact same conclusion that he, Campbell, had reached. Even Harvard researchers agreed with him, was the implication.
A man sitting at the other end of the dais got up and introduced himself. “Excuse me, Dr. Campbell”, said the man.”I happened to be the lead researcher on that study you mentioned. And we made no such conclusions” It was David Ludwig, MD, of Harvard University.

What I find interesting about the “China Study” is that it also compltely contradicts everything that my Chinese friends tell me about what they eat “back home”. Fish, eggs, chickens, and pork, PORK! They love all of these things, they’d love more beef too when they can afford it. China is one of the least vegetarian countries on Earth.

Yippidippidoo. Nice stories, even if some of them are made up. Again, I ask you for a link to a REPUTABLE SCIENTIFIC SOURCE that "DEBUNKS" The China Study. I don't want somebody's opinion, I want a reasoned analysis.

Yes that's right Dr. Ludwig isn't a real Dr.,,,,,,,, because he eats meat? You really are making your self look bad.

freerange

Freerange are we getting vegetarianism confused with vegan-ism? A lot of vegetarians will eat fish and eggs.

A little. But to be technical if they eat animal products they are not vegetarian, vegans carry it to another level, they "try" to avoid all contact with anything that comes from, or caused the death of an animal. As in the cloths they wear, the makeup they use, etc, etc.

To be clear I have no problem with veggies (I lump them all in the same boat) as long as they leave me alone and don't try to force me to live my life as they see fit. My problem is with the militant, my way or the highway, killing bambi is bad, eating tofu is holy, crowd that I despise.

Just as I dislike the crowd that enjoys killing and torturing animals and calling that a sport.

Bytheway, no vegetarian eats fish.

Torturing? Again you are showing your militant vegan nature. Because most people do not lie to themselves about what a human really is (omnivore) and eats meat does not make them torturers. I don't call hunting, sport, I call it substance. What do you call the killing of millions of little bunnies, deer, mice, and scores of other adorable animals by destroying their habitat so you can have your tofu burger?

freerange

http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2012/01/dont-eat-like-a-caveman/

Also, I agree that the USNews is sort of a pop study, not rigorous, but it does involve expert opinion, and most interestingly from my point of view, it allows visitors to the site to self report their satisfaction level with the diet. I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but something like 6 to 1 of vegetarians said the diet had helped them, while, if I recall about three to one of people who had tried Paleo said it had NOT helped them.

Just what qualifies in your mind as expert? Someone that agrees with your militant views, someone that has a PHD? Or just an editor of a newspaper?

freerange

Everything I have ever read about Paleo from a non-Paleo source, including US News, says the diet is awful.

As for what I said about the genome, that is standard genetics and epigenetics. It is in any textbook.

Please, of scientific one, please provide the exact quote of any "expert" saying the paleo diet is "awful"

islandmonkey

This actually makes sense. That tribe probably only reproduce, so to speak, with their own tribe. That may not ALWAYS be the case, but I would bet they keep within their tribe.

Very, very unlikely that the group reproduces only within.

In fact, most hunter-gatherer or nomadic groups have fairly elaborate rituals around marriage and movement within and across groups; often mating outside the group is preferred.

Not if they live on an island in the middle of the Pacific, or on the frozen tundra of the Artic.

Sorry, but you're wrong still - having lived in the North of Canada I can confirm that there is still a lot of trading and intermingling of groups (and has been for a very long time). Same with pacific islanders - they've had boats for a very long time, you know.

(I majored in Anthropology with a focus on genetics - and I think you're just making guesses?)

wackyfunster

3) Complete lack of focus on intermittent fasting, which was almost certainly the normal dietary pattern in hunter-gatherer societies, and HAS been shown to provide a large number of health benefits. I suspect that many of the health problems we are seeing now are more a symptom of meal frequency (resulting in constantly elevated insulin levels) than of specific macro intakes.

Eh? IF is very popular in the Paleo and Primal communities. It's a common topic of discussion and many avid Paleo-dieters IF.

I know a TON of paleo folks (crossfit community). Only a handful have even heard of IF. I would be happy to be wrong about the community in general.

freerange

3) Complete lack of focus on intermittent fasting, which was almost certainly the normal dietary pattern in hunter-gatherer societies, and HAS been shown to provide a large number of health benefits. I suspect that many of the health problems we are seeing now are more a symptom of meal frequency (resulting in constantly elevated insulin levels) than of specific macro intakes.

Eh? IF is very popular in the Paleo and Primal communities. It's a common topic of discussion and many avid Paleo-dieters IF.

I know a TON of paleo folks (crossfit community). Only a handful have even heard of IF. I would be happy to be wrong about the community in general.

Of course not all use IF, and like anything else it depends on who you hang out with. It's talked about a lot on Marksdailyapple forum. But that doesn't mean that a majority do it. Like any forum, only a small handful actually post most just watch.

Need2bfit918

most of the podcasts, and websites dedicated to paleo, and primal eating talk regularly about fasting.

tidmutt

3) Complete lack of focus on intermittent fasting, which was almost certainly the normal dietary pattern in hunter-gatherer societies, and HAS been shown to provide a large number of health benefits. I suspect that many of the health problems we are seeing now are more a symptom of meal frequency (resulting in constantly elevated insulin levels) than of specific macro intakes.

Eh? IF is very popular in the Paleo and Primal communities. It's a common topic of discussion and many avid Paleo-dieters IF.

I know a TON of paleo folks (crossfit community). Only a handful have even heard of IF. I would be happy to be wrong about the community in general.

Here is one of the many IF posts on Mark's Daily Apple:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/fasting-weight-loss/#axzz22X7s6iCQ

Search the site, there are loads of others. Robb Wolf talks about it on his blog and pod casts as well.

Believe me, it's extremely common in the Paleo/Primal/Ancestral health community. Those Paleo people you know are evidently not up to date, in fact, it's been talked about for years. It makes sense since IF was probably common for our Paleo buddies.

I think you've been a bit hard of the whole concept, it's a great community as well.

VegesaurusRex

My first reaction was that the hunters and gatherers have become more efficient at burning calories because I have to work so much harder now to burn the same amount of calories as I did when I first started losing weight.

The issue highlighted in the study is that they are thinner and lighter than you, so they burn less calories on account of that - even accounting for greater activity levels.

Doubly labelled water and respiratory gas analysis was used to determine energy consumption and expenditure, they also had GPS devices fitted and were measured for energy walking on a test track. It's all in the paper.

The "paleo diet" is mentioned by Dr John Briffa's blog http://www.drbriffa.com/2012/07/27/hunter-gatherers-most-likely-to-be-leaner-than-us-due-to-differences-in-diet-not-activity/ where he points to papers that find the "Paleo diet" to be more satiating resulting in lower ad lib energy intake of ~1400 vs 1800 cals/day compared to a "Mediterranean" style diet.

"Paleo diet" - http://www.springerlink.com/content/h7628r66r0552222/fulltext.pdf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3009971 includes macro & micro nutrient profiles.

I use "Paleo diet" in quotes to indicate what is currently eaten by those following such a diet, without any reference to ancient history ;-) There's a lot less carbs in the Paleo vs Mediterranean diet comparison.

Why do you defend a diet that has never been shown to have anything going for it?

You still haven't posted those links...

What links? Surely you are not asking me to repost links to the China Study, the German Study, the Framingham Study or any of the dozens of others that we have argued about in the past? If you are asking me to do that, why?

In case you are intersted, however, I will give you this link:

http://health.usnews.com/best-diet/slideshows/top-rated-diets-overall

I am not at all defending this "study," or its conclusions, or for that matter anything else it says. The US News College Report is about as accurate and scientific as this, but I did find it interesting that of all the diets mentioned (of which I am unaware of most) the Vegetarian diet, the Vegan diet, the Ornish diet , and virtually all of the veggie diets finished on top in just about every category, while the Paleo diet finished last. Any comments?

LOL, Usnews, yeah, they know what they are talking about. I've read that review. It was completely off base. The Paleo diet, by Cordain, calls for leans meats and is not a high saturated fat diet. They didn't cover all the nuances and I'm not on board with the lipid hypothesis anyway, so I don't buy the sat fat bogey man. Also, they mention dairy, or the lack thereof, fine do Primal. I often wonder what all those lactose intolerant people are going to do, they're all going to have horrible bone density when they hit 50 I suppose. In fact, that argument can be used against vegan diets as well since you eschew dairy. Fact is, Paleo is a vegan diet with a bit of meat thrown in, as I've said before.

I was asking you to cite the evidence of the Paleo diet being so bad since you were stating that.

It was more expert opinions than studies, Mutt. Paleo hasn't been around long enough to be studied.

Here is an example:

http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2012/01/dont-eat-like-a-caveman/

Also, I agree that the USNews is sort of a pop study, not rigorous, but it does involve expert opinion, and most interestingly from my point of view, it allows visitors to the site to self report their satisfaction level with the diet. I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but something like 6 to 1 of vegetarians said the diet had helped them, while, if I recall about three to one of people who had tried Paleo said it had NOT helped them.

That was a really bad article written by a psychologist. The comments on that page completely destroy a very poorly written opinion piece. Haven't checked out the satisfaction level stuff on the usnews site but that's still pretty weak.

Mutt, is it a bad article because it disagrees with you? Frankly everything it says is logical and correct, It's the Paleos that live in Lala Land.

VegesaurusRex

but I am sure these people have significant differences in genome from the wider population.

You are sure? Well scientific man, where is you scientific study to back that up? LOL

This actually makes sense. That tribe probably only reproduce, so to speak, with their own tribe. That may not ALWAYS be the case, but I would bet they keep within their tribe.

Actually, I would like to see evidence of this. If anything it illustrates how adaptable we are as humans in that we can survive on just about any mix of macros. It's interesting veggiusmaximus that you are making the assumption that a stick of butter is unhealthy, definite bias there, a preconception that groups like these call into question. Of course, if their genome is adapted, then that's different. I've yet to see a really good explanation for how Saturated Fat causes heart disease, no convincing mechanism has been uncovered from what I've read.

I do want to reiterate what I've said in other threads and what others have said here. There are variations on the "Paleo" diet, but overall it encourages the consumption of more vegetables, nuts, some support dairy consumption, and they include animal protein. If it's typical factory farmed meat then the suggestion is to eat lean meat. How on earth is that an unhealthy diet even in from the mainstream point of view? It restricts grain consumption, WHO CARES? Processed grains are devoid of much in the way of nutrients unless they are fortified.

Personally I think much of the arguing about Paleo diets is much ado about nothing. It's light years ahead of the Standard American Diet.

Yes, it probably targets men, is there something wrong with that? Weight Watchers targets women, believe me, I've been to a lot of weight watchers meetings. Interestingly though, I've seen LOADS of women posting on Marks Daily Apple. Perhaps they are all lesbians? lol

Yes, Mutt, and as I have been saying to you for what six months? A year? What solid evidence do you have that Paleo is any good? I have been asking you over and over, and have yet to get a solid reply. No, I am not interested in reading opinion pieces in the New York Times.

Everything I have ever read about Paleo from a non-Paleo source, including US News, says the diet is awful.

As for what I said about the genome, that is standard genetics and epigenetics. It is in any textbook.

As I've said before, Paleo has not been studied much yet. Would love to see a good study compare it to ornish, low fat SAD etc.

I've seen nothing in what you've posted that convinces me that loads of experts think it's awful. You'll find plenty of dietitians who don't like vegan diets too btw.

Just because we know about Epigenetics doesn't mean that those groups are uniquely adapted to fat and animal protein consumption.

So if you have no basis to believe it, and it is all urban myths, why the hell do you follow it?

VegesaurusRex

Maybe I'll just go an eat a stick of butter, followed by about 10 candy bars. Yum! I'll have a handful of nuts for my protein.

What the heck are you babbling about now? LOL

In terms of breakdown by category, this is the diet you are recommending. This is the same breakdown as your Trobriand Islanders.

This just shows your ignorance we don't eat a stick of butter, and sure as heck don't eat candy bars. If you bothered to do any research at all you would know that source matters more than macro to us.

I don't research fairy tales. There is nothing about Paleo that is Paleolithic, and even if there were, as I said a million time, you couldn't figure out what the diet was anyway. And even if you could, why would you? Are you all afraid you will die before 40? If so I guess Paleo is a great diet for you.

VegesaurusRex

Sure, right. And how many hours do I have to waste trying to prove a negative. Forget it. If you can't prove you know what you are talking about, I will simply form a logical opinion about what you believe.

you are free to do that. Again I already posted them you said you would ignore them, so why would I go thru the trouble of posting them again. Your mind is already made up, and it's based on your bias toward the unhealthy lifestyle you are living.

Your posts were not by reputable scientists, in fact not even scientists. They were by people blogging and giving their own opinion. You said you had reputable scientists who had "debunked the China Study." Name one or simply admit that you don't know what you are talking about.

And this shows your lack of comprehension or reading ability one of the two. I said you have to go to the internal links to find what you are looking for. Because you refuse to do so tells a lot. And again the last link I posted was from a Dr. again, since you put so much faith if letters behind someones name.

Every link you have posted refers to this dipsy chick who thinks she knows something about statistics and probably doesn't even have a Bachelors degree. I don't think anybody with any credentials would ever defend your silly notions of diet. Paleo is pop culture. Period. End of story. Stop trying to pretend it is scientific, because it is not.

VegesaurusRex

Sure, right. And how many hours do I have to waste trying to prove a negative. Forget it. If you can't prove you know what you are talking about, I will simply form a logical opinion about what you believe.

you are free to do that. Again I already posted them you said you would ignore them, so why would I go thru the trouble of posting them again. Your mind is already made up, and it's based on your bias toward the unhealthy lifestyle you are living.

Your posts were not by reputable scientists, in fact not even scientists. They were by people blogging and giving their own opinion. You said you had reputable scientists who had "debunked the China Study." Name one or simply admit that you don't know what you are talking about.

LOL and your link to an opinion piece in the NYtimes or whatever rag it was in, was? Reputable, how?

I am sorry, but it is you who is putting your faith in the hands of some idiot named Taub who is a freelance writer for the NY Times has no credentials and has his head up his Kazooba. Why am I not surprised that a hunter would pick someone like him to follow?

VegesaurusRex

What is the "China Diet?" I have never heard of that.

The China Study, on the other had has yet to be seriously debunked. It has some problems, and Campbell the author of the study stated that given hindsight he might have done some things differently, but by no means did he ever state that his study had been "debunked." As far as I know, no one else with any scientific credentials has ever said that either.

Yes I meant China study, and really a person that did a study saying his study hasn't been debunked, now there's a shock.

http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/ (debunk)

http://www.foodrenegade.com/the-china-study-discredited/ (debunk)

http://freetheanimal.com/2010/07/t-colin-campbells-the-china-study-finally-exhaustively-discredited.html (debunk)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x5TKlTJLpE (and for those that can't read here is a you tube debunk)

Some of these overlap, please look at the links to actual studies, don't come back with these are just bloggers or whatever.

Right?! The China Study/ Campbell has been discredited for quite a while now.

Really? Here we go again. Kindly give me one source A CREDIBLE REPUTABLE SCIENTIFIC SOURCE where that study has been discredited. I am not talking about some gal's blog where she wants to show off her statistics 102.

Please stop asking for information you are only going to ignore. LOL

You are the one who claimed you had a "reputable scientist who debunked the China Study." What you presented was some airhead chick who apparently impresses the hell out of you but probably still needs to get her bachelor's degree.