"Starvation mode", exercise calories, dillema?

SkimFlatWhite68

Thank you Banks, great read.

sheshappynow

ok so I take my BMR and multiply times 1.25 and that is how many calories I should try and eat a day? Dang this is so confusing.... I was eating 1200 a day and have since increased it to 1400 a day... I really want to understand this. Helppppppppp LOL

helcart01

bump to read later. Thanks

Ploogy

So in anywhere from 10 days to six weeks, if someone drops from eating their usual 3500 calories to 2100, they are hitting starvation mode? Right.

Mock_Turtle

You talk a lot about myths, science, evidence, etc. Which is great, but then you just handwaive away the important math of it all:

Just find your approximate BMR (there's a ton of sites out there that do this, go to webMD and put metabolism calculator in, you'll find their tool for TDEE) and multiply by 1.25 (in this example) and you'll get close to your TDEE

I call that a TDEE dartboard.

How can you be so certain of starvation mode hitting or not hitting when it's one wild *kitten* guess as to what your TDEE is?

There are multiple correlations for BMR they vary by up to 20%
The scale factor for activity is LOL ranging from 1.2 - 2.0

But we take all those random *kitten* assumptions and then say if you eat below XXXX you hit starvation mode? What about some other empirical evidence to help guide you - effect on weight loss, sleep quality, etc?

It's important people tighten up their "calories expended" range. Either by tracking all of their data in a spreadsheet to see if they're losing as much weight as they expected, or else going and doing things that make their estimates more accurate - getting BMR tested, buying an HRM, etc.

SHBoss1673

You talk a lot about myths, science, evidence, etc. Which is great, but then you just handwaive away the important math of it all:

Just find your approximate BMR (there's a ton of sites out there that do this, go to webMD and put metabolism calculator in, you'll find their tool for TDEE) and multiply by 1.25 (in this example) and you'll get close to your TDEE

I call that a TDEE dartboard.

How can you be so certain of starvation mode hitting or not hitting when it's one wild *kitten* guess as to what your TDEE is?

There are multiple correlations for BMR they vary by up to 20%
The scale factor for activity is LOL ranging from 1.2 - 2.0

But we take all those random *kitten* assumptions and then say if you eat below XXXX you hit starvation mode? What about some other empirical evidence to help guide you - effect on weight loss, sleep quality, etc?

It's important people tighten up their "calories expended" range. Either by tracking all of their data in a spreadsheet to see if they're losing as much weight as they expected, or else going and doing things that make their estimates more accurate - getting BMR tested, buying an HRM, etc.

You are exactly right, and I say all the time, if you can't figure out your TDEE, or if you're having problems finding it, you should be tested in a metabolic lab. The reason why I don't give a more precise method for at home testing, is because there is no more precise method. You get as close as you can, try, and tweak as you go. If you don't want to use that, then I'm all for getting your metabolism tested. And they're not wild *kitten* guesses, they're as close as you can get on your own.

You're making generalizations about the TDEE. It's not a dart board, it's a best case estimate based on as many factors as we can nail down. Some things you can't, and that needs to be understood. I don't think anywhere in any of my writing have I said that what I do will be 100% accurate every time, there's no such thing, even Dietitians will tell you that, it's a lot of trial and error.

And I don't base starvation mode on someone's estimate of TDEE, I base it on the hormone levels of the body. When you're body passes certain thresholds, the flow of hormones changes, and this triggers the body's natural famine responses. That's just human physiology.

sniperzzzz

Good Post

whitney_elyse

This post is seriously my life dilemma for the past 6-8 months. Historically, I've always been a yo-yo dieter. I think it comes with the territory of the early 20's...I take responsibility, of course...but just stating my case here. I've done the super-low calorie thing, the South Beach (no carb/no sugar) thing, etc. etc.
6 months ago, I started working out regularly and eating around 1400 calories per day. After not losing a single pound for 3 months, I got on board with the "eat more to weigh less"/"Road Map" thing and started eating an intial 2100 calories per day, for two weeks...and then dropped to 1700 calories per day (eating back exercise calories...or most of them). This calorie deficit should reflect my reported TDEE minus 20%.
Fastforward to 3 months later, and I am 4 lbs heavier. Granted, I am now doing a weight lifting program (60 min strength training, 30 min cardio) and my clothes aren't tighter so I could be convinced that the 4 lbs are muscle. But, undeniably, I haven't lost an ounce of fat.
I'm 5'10, 165 lbs....I got my BMR measured by some body composition specialist at my gym and it came out to 1400 calories.

Any thoughts on where I went wrong? I feel like I've followed everything to a T and I am definitely not disputing your post...just wondering why it seems to work for everyone but me?

IronGirlShae

That is such good info! I may email it to my mom. She's been chronically under-eating due to some unknown illness, I have seen her eat 400 cal in a day. She looks skeletal now and has lots of health issues, but she has NO APPETITE and will not make herself eat, even to save her own life. I think she might find it interesting that her own brain is fooling her into thinking she isn't hungry.

christocentrist

Comment is so I can reference this later.

I have a friend who averages between 500-700 calories/day because her body has been in starvation mode for years due to anorexia/bulemia. She is terrified of eating more than that because of the immediate weight gain that is bound to happen. We have talked about it a lot, because I am convinced that a jump to 1400+ calories/day plus strength training will of course cause initial gain but will result in immediate and long-term benefits as well. This post was very informative and I would love more information from reputable sources!

SHBoss1673

This post is seriously my life dilemma for the past 6-8 months. Historically, I've always been a yo-yo dieter. I think it comes with the territory of the early 20's...I take responsibility, of course...but just stating my case here. I've done the super-low calorie thing, the South Beach (no carb/no sugar) thing, etc. etc.
6 months ago, I started working out regularly and eating around 1400 calories per day. After not losing a single pound for 3 months, I got on board with the "eat more to weigh less"/"Road Map" thing and started eating an intial 2100 calories per day, for two weeks...and then dropped to 1700 calories per day (eating back exercise calories...or most of them). This calorie deficit should reflect my reported TDEE minus 20%.
Fastforward to 3 months later, and I am 4 lbs heavier. Granted, I am now doing a weight lifting program (60 min strength training, 30 min cardio) and my clothes aren't tighter so I could be convinced that the 4 lbs are muscle. But, undeniably, I haven't lost an ounce of fat.
I'm 5'10, 165 lbs....I got my BMR measured by some body composition specialist at my gym and it came out to 1400 calories.

Any thoughts on where I went wrong? I feel like I've followed everything to a T and I am definitely not disputing your post...just wondering why it seems to work for everyone but me?

As much as I'd love to say I have a definite answer for you, I don't. There's always a certain amount of trial and error that needs to be part of a weight loss plan, especially when you are close to maintenance. Everyone is a little different. Without having any kind of intimate knowledge of your situation, I wouldn't be able to give you any more detailed information.

kcallas88

jerber160

You talk a lot about myths, science, evidence, etc. Which is great, but then you just handwaive away the important math of it all:

Just find your approximate BMR (there's a ton of sites out there that do this, go to webMD and put metabolism calculator in, you'll find their tool for TDEE) and multiply by 1.25 (in this example) and you'll get close to your TDEE

I call that a TDEE dartboard.

How can you be so certain of starvation mode hitting or not hitting when it's one wild *kitten* guess as to what your TDEE is?

There are multiple correlations for BMR they vary by up to 20%
The scale factor for activity is LOL ranging from 1.2 - 2.0

But we take all those random *kitten* assumptions and then say if you eat below XXXX you hit starvation mode? What about some other empirical evidence to help guide you - effect on weight loss, sleep quality, etc?

It's important people tighten up their "calories expended" range. Either by tracking all of their data in a spreadsheet to see if they're losing as much weight as they expected, or else going and doing things that make their estimates more accurate - getting BMR tested, buying an HRM, etc.

You are exactly right, and I say all the time, if you can't figure out your TDEE, or if you're having problems finding it, you should be tested in a metabolic lab. The reason why I don't give a more precise method for at home testing, is because there is no more precise method. You get as close as you can, try, and tweak as you go. If you don't want to use that, then I'm all for getting your metabolism tested. And they're not wild *kitten* guesses, they're as close as you can get on your own.

You're making generalizations about the TDEE. It's not a dart board, it's a best case estimate based on as many factors as we can nail down. Some things you can't, and that needs to be understood. I don't think anywhere in any of my writing have I said that what I do will be 100% accurate every time, there's no such thing, even Dietitians will tell you that, it's a lot of trial and error.

And I don't base starvation mode on someone's estimate of TDEE, I base it on the hormone levels of the body. When you're body passes certain thresholds, the flow of hormones changes, and this triggers the body's natural famine responses. That's just human physiology.

HOW AND WHERE CAN YOU GET YOUR 'METABOLISM TESTED?' THANKS

SHBoss1673

You talk a lot about myths, science, evidence, etc. Which is great, but then you just handwaive away the important math of it all:

Just find your approximate BMR (there's a ton of sites out there that do this, go to webMD and put metabolism calculator in, you'll find their tool for TDEE) and multiply by 1.25 (in this example) and you'll get close to your TDEE

I call that a TDEE dartboard.

How can you be so certain of starvation mode hitting or not hitting when it's one wild *kitten* guess as to what your TDEE is?

There are multiple correlations for BMR they vary by up to 20%
The scale factor for activity is LOL ranging from 1.2 - 2.0

But we take all those random *kitten* assumptions and then say if you eat below XXXX you hit starvation mode? What about some other empirical evidence to help guide you - effect on weight loss, sleep quality, etc?

It's important people tighten up their "calories expended" range. Either by tracking all of their data in a spreadsheet to see if they're losing as much weight as they expected, or else going and doing things that make their estimates more accurate - getting BMR tested, buying an HRM, etc.

You are exactly right, and I say all the time, if you can't figure out your TDEE, or if you're having problems finding it, you should be tested in a metabolic lab. The reason why I don't give a more precise method for at home testing, is because there is no more precise method. You get as close as you can, try, and tweak as you go. If you don't want to use that, then I'm all for getting your metabolism tested. And they're not wild *kitten* guesses, they're as close as you can get on your own.

You're making generalizations about the TDEE. It's not a dart board, it's a best case estimate based on as many factors as we can nail down. Some things you can't, and that needs to be understood. I don't think anywhere in any of my writing have I said that what I do will be 100% accurate every time, there's no such thing, even Dietitians will tell you that, it's a lot of trial and error.

And I don't base starvation mode on someone's estimate of TDEE, I base it on the hormone levels of the body. When you're body passes certain thresholds, the flow of hormones changes, and this triggers the body's natural famine responses. That's just human physiology.

HOW AND WHERE CAN YOU GET YOUR 'METABOLISM TESTED?' THANKS

Your doctor should be able to tell you the closest place. Or possibly your gym. If you have a local practicing registered dietitian, I'm positive they would be able to help. Just about any reputable weight loss facility should be able to help you find one.

geebusuk

Guessing you're in the US, but I've recently got a newleaf machine which can test BMR - but I'm Yorkshire in the UK.

gigi808

Bump

wllwsmmr

bump!

Linkman81

SHBoss1673, thank you for such a comprehensive post at the beginning of this thread. I began weight loss about 4 weeks ago and have since began trying to separate fact from myth in the world of diet and exercise, and as I'm sure you know there certainly is a lot of myth out there. I feel the best source of fact, or at least the best we can hope for, is from research journals. Can you please point to me the research article/journal which shows the body entering an absorptive mode following fasted state. Meaning that your body holds onto food while eating in a starved state and prefers storage to feeding the body. I've heard this many times, but just as you, I'm trying to separate fact from myth. I am a 5'10 male weighing 350 and have been on an 800 calorie low carb high protein diet consisting of lean protein and vegetables for 4 weeks. This resulted in 20lbs of weight loss. During this time, I've poured over research papers and studies that have to do with BMR decrease and metabolic changes associated with starvation (less that 50% bmr intake of food). What I've arrived at is that "starvation mode" and the resultant decrease in BMR are largely controlled by decreasing thermogenesis. This will decrease your BMR by a small degree and make you feel cold all the time. But the more obese the person, the lesser suppression in thermogenesis for the same degree of fat depletion in a normal weighted person. ("Adaptive reduction in basal metabolic rate in response to food depreivation in humans: a role for feedback signals from fat stores" Abdul G Dulloo and Jean Jacquet, American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 1998). So in obese people the effects of this "starvation mode" are largely decreased. I've read the book Eat Stop Eat, and then read all of the sources sited in the back as well. Many of these claims for the use of a 24 hour fast or 1 meal a day to increase fat loss do hold up. What I can't find however is studies that specifically demonstrate the greater loss of lean tissue over fat during starvation or semi-starvation. Also, I'd like to find whether nutrition influences the bodies tendency to oxidize fat over lean tissue during a semi-starved state. Meaning, can eating high protein and low carb influence what my body decides to cannibalize. I respect your opinion and admire your passion, but if you would, help me along the path to separate all these myths by stating some sources for your claims.

So, in review. If you know of any of the following, please let me know. They'd allow me to accept the information in your post a lot easier and put to rest some questions I've had for a long time now. My personal research does conflict with yours a bit, and love to read more if you have on hand the below information.

- Source for body favoring an absorptive state after fasting

- Source for body favoring lipogenesis when eating during a fasted state

- Source for body favoring lean tissue catabolism over lipolysis in the obese during starvation.

- And if you have ran across any study that talks about how nutrition effects the balance of lean tissue catabolism and liplysis.

LisaGCone

I started a ketogenic diet last week and according it MyFitnessPal, was eating 16 to 20% carbs. Was doing and feeling fine until day 4, after walking on my treadmill for appr 1hr. Then I became very depressed and cried a lot. It could have been triggered by something I saw on FB, but more than I would have expected. Could something about the diet have caused this? It lasted till the next day. My husband went and bought me a lava cake and ice cream for my birthday and I actually felt better afterwards. Any connection? Also, I have lost 45 lbs at this point with 13 lbs to go to get to my ideal goal of 110 lbs, I am 5'1" and 51 years old.

SHBoss1673

I started a ketogenic diet last week and according it MyFitnessPal, was eating 16 to 20% carbs. Was doing and feeling fine until day 4, after walking on my treadmill for appr 1hr. Then I became very depressed and cried a lot. It could have been triggered by something I saw on FB, but more than I would have expected. Could something about the diet have caused this? It lasted till the next day. My husband went and bought me a lava cake and ice cream for my birthday and I actually felt better afterwards. Any connection? Also, I have lost 45 lbs at this point with 13 lbs to go to get to my ideal goal of 110 lbs, I am 5'1" and 51 years old.

the short answer is yes. You are messing with your chemical balance, and side effects could absolutely include mood fluctuations, among other things. Ketogenic diets are by far the hardest of all IMHO, if you choose that route, be sure to study up on the pitfalls and dangers as well as the benefits. I personally don't suggest them to many people unless there is a specific reasoning (allergies or epilepsy...etc.), but to each their own, just do your research and be cautious in the application.
FYI, 20% carbs probably isn't actually ketogenic, depends on your body chemistry, but generally people go ketogenic somewhere around 10% carbs. For me, to become ketogenic is around 50 grams (about 12%) of carbs but that's because my maintenance is around 2800 calories, for someone who's maintenance is at 2000 or below, it's as low as 30 to 20 grams.

CaitlinW19

Thanks for writing this. I have a MFP friend that I hope reads this. I don't want to be too pushy, but I know she's not giving her body enough fuel. Luckily, I know she will be seeing an MD soon and is looking for answers. I'm a nobody, but hopefully a professional's opinion will make it click.

SHBoss1673

SHBoss1673, thank you for such a comprehensive post at the beginning of this thread. I began weight loss about 4 weeks ago and have since began trying to separate fact from myth in the world of diet and exercise, and as I'm sure you know there certainly is a lot of myth out there. I feel the best source of fact, or at least the best we can hope for, is from research journals. Can you please point to me the research article/journal which shows the body entering an absorptive mode following fasted state. Meaning that your body holds onto food while eating in a starved state and prefers storage to feeding the body. I've heard this many times, but just as you, I'm trying to separate fact from myth. I am a 5'10 male weighing 350 and have been on an 800 calorie low carb high protein diet consisting of lean protein and vegetables for 4 weeks. This resulted in 20lbs of weight loss. During this time, I've poured over research papers and studies that have to do with BMR decrease and metabolic changes associated with starvation (less that 50% bmr intake of food). What I've arrived at is that "starvation mode" and the resultant decrease in BMR are largely controlled by decreasing thermogenesis. This will decrease your BMR by a small degree and make you feel cold all the time. But the more obese the person, the lesser suppression in thermogenesis for the same degree of fat depletion in a normal weighted person. ("Adaptive reduction in basal metabolic rate in response to food depreivation in humans: a role for feedback signals from fat stores" Abdul G Dulloo and Jean Jacquet, American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 1998). So in obese people the effects of this "starvation mode" are largely decreased. I've read the book Eat Stop Eat, and then read all of the sources sited in the back as well. Many of these claims for the use of a 24 hour fast or 1 meal a day to increase fat loss do hold up. What I can't find however is studies that specifically demonstrate the greater loss of lean tissue over fat during starvation or semi-starvation. Also, I'd like to find whether nutrition influences the bodies tendency to oxidize fat over lean tissue during a semi-starved state. Meaning, can eating high protein and low carb influence what my body decides to cannibalize. I respect your opinion and admire your passion, but if you would, help me along the path to separate all these myths by stating some sources for your claims.

So, in review. If you know of any of the following, please let me know. They'd allow me to accept the information in your post a lot easier and put to rest some questions I've had for a long time now. My personal research does conflict with yours a bit, and love to read more if you have on hand the below information.

- Source for body favoring an absorptive state after fasting

- Source for body favoring lipogenesis when eating during a fasted state

- Source for body favoring lean tissue catabolism over lipolysis in the obese during starvation.

- And if you have ran across any study that talks about how nutrition effects the balance of lean tissue catabolism and liplysis.

first, let me apologize for taking so long to respond. Busy time for me. I'll have to look over my notes on where to go to find the statistics you're looking for, but please note, because most of these studies would fly in the face of traditional "diet" businesses, you won't find many privately funded studies that will support these conclusions. Many of them come by way of tangent analysis, I.E. taking the byproduct results from other studies and comprising summary reports based off them.

There are a lot of sports based studies and studies on gastroenterology that focus on how the body prioritizes fuel sources that can be deduced. Some of these involve "normal" body types as opposed to athletes or people who have disorders related to the intestinal tract, which gives you a better cross section to deduce from.

I'll see what I can dig up from my studies and forward them along.

regards,

-Steve

SHBoss1673

I've created a public download on dropbox that has a bunch of studies that I've read related to this topic along with a quick summary. this list is a little old, so some of these may no longer work, but give it a shot.

it's in MS word format, so download the reader if you don't have word installed (the reader is free).

here's the link to the download.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hcg38vy1jsqfa5l/txp-faKXzf

SHBoss1673

Thanks for writing this. I have a MFP friend that I hope reads this. I don't want to be too pushy, but I know she's not giving her body enough fuel. Luckily, I know she will be seeing an MD soon and is looking for answers. I'm a nobody, but hopefully a professional's opinion will make it click.

unfortunately, not all (or even very many) MD's are qualified to talk nutrition. It's kind of a dirty little secret in the medical community that doctors receive almost zero nutritional training, only 1 course in pre-med for GP doctors usually. Unfortunately many doctors won't admit this and give out erroneous advice when they really shouldn't. A far more helpful resource would be a registered dietitian. They are required to go very deep into nutrition and are well educated. Even then it's a matter of finding one that works well with your personality.

lynnweil1985

Thank you for posting that, me and my co-workers where just trying to understand this.. THANKS again!!!