Help me understand something

californiagirl2012

Help me understand something that confuses me because I fail at science…

Let’s just use random numbers. Say Sally eats 1200 calories a day for 6 months, mostly healthy low calorie foods. She loses the weight she wanted to lose and then she slowly ups her intake to 1600 a day (or whatever # maintenance is for her new weight) and stays there with the hopes of maintaining her new weight.

(these are made up numbers & I don’t actually know anyone named Sally)

People always says that if Sally does this, she is going to gain back all the weight and then some because she lost the weight by eating a low calorie amount.

Someone explain to me why that would happen?

I did something more drastic than that (under a doctors care). But I am SHORT. I consistently lost weight, and have maintained for over a year now. My full story here --> http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/740340-i-lost-60-lbs-at-age-51-anyone-can-any-workout

Exciting stuff happening for me now --> http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/752246-i-m-afraid-to-try-an-new-weight-lifting-program-now

My success story will publish sometime in the future in Oxygen magazine, I will be giving fitness talks, so far not getting paid for anything but someday when I get picked up in a paid position I won't be on MFP giving away free advice anymore.

My various "muscle experiments"

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/745151-i-got-a-compliment-from-rusty-moore-from-fitness-black-book

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/742284-lets-see-some-muscle-chicks-real-ones

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/746754-how-to-get-abs-with-pics

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/734011-desserts-always-make-me-wake-up-ripped-with-pics

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/734137-the-new-me-pictures-not-posing


Haters will hate, you can't stop it. The more you pull ahead the more arrows they will try to stick in your back.

rubyautumn4

Sally the camel has five humps...Sally the camel has four humps...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3X5mWR80qA

LadyIvysMom

I wouldn't say that "Sally" would gain that weight back. I have sort of been in a similar situation; I lost 30 pounds dropping down to 1600 calories along with a moderatly active lifestyle. The higher the weight the more calories your body burns, even if you do nothing but lay in bed all day. What I found that even though I am still eatting 1600 calories I was no longer losing weight, just maintaining because as I lost weight the base amount of calories my body burned also lowered. So, at my current weight I can either maintain at 1600 or if I want to lose I aim for 1200 to 1400. Focus on what your BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate) is and you can find under Tools. Does this help with your question?

Yes! Thank you.

And if you are already eating at the 1200 minimum, you can't go any lower to get those last 10 or however many pounds off when you get there.

Plugging random numbers into that calculator to see what weight someone my height would have to be to MAINTAIN at 1200 calories a day and the number was around 70 lbs. Yikes. So in theory no one should be trying to "maintain" at 1200 lbs anyway.

DebbieLyn63

seriously tho, if Sally were to keep her calorie level at maintenance level, she would not gain back the weight. What usually happens is someone drops their calories long enough to lose the weight, then goes back to overeating and therefore gains it all back and whines that diets don't work.

"people" who claim that no one can lose weight at 1200 cals and keep it off long term, are making generalized statements without taking into consideration the individual's caloric needs.

That said, if Sally doesn't eat enough protein while she is losing weight and therefore loses a lot of muscle, then her base metabolism will be lowered and she will have to eat fewer calories on maintenance to not gain back her weight than if she had lost it more slowly, making sure she ate enough protein.

BUT lower calories doesn't necessarily mean low protein. Depending on her age, height, and starting weight. Sally could most likely keep her protein level high enough while cutting out the chips, sodas, and donuts she was eating before, and still eat around 1200 calories to lose the weight.

LadyIvysMom

Help me understand something that confuses me because I fail at science…

Let’s just use random numbers. Say Sally eats 1200 calories a day for 6 months, mostly healthy low calorie foods. She loses the weight she wanted to lose and then she slowly ups her intake to 1600 a day (or whatever # maintenance is for her new weight) and stays there with the hopes of maintaining her new weight.

(these are made up numbers & I don’t actually know anyone named Sally)

People always says that if Sally does this, she is going to gain back all the weight and then some because she lost the weight by eating a low calorie amount.

Someone explain to me why that would happen?

I did something more drastic than that (under a doctors care). But I am SHORT. I consistently lost weight, and have maintained for over a year now. My full story here --> http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/740340-i-lost-60-lbs-at-age-51-anyone-can-any-workout

Exciting stuff happening for me now --> http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/752246-i-m-afraid-to-try-an-new-weight-lifting-program-now

My success story will publish sometime in the future in Oxygen magazine, I will be giving fitness talks, so far not getting paid for anything but someday when I get picked up in a paid position I won't be on MFP giving away free advice anymore.

My various "muscle experiments"

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/745151-i-got-a-compliment-from-rusty-moore-from-fitness-black-book

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/742284-lets-see-some-muscle-chicks-real-ones

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/746754-how-to-get-abs-with-pics

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/734011-desserts-always-make-me-wake-up-ripped-with-pics

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/734137-the-new-me-pictures-not-posing


Haters will hate, you can't stop it. The more you pull ahead the more arrows they will try to stick in your back.

Good for you! Congrats on your success!

cecilesutton

Who are these 'people' and why would Sally want to eat so little anyway?

These are just random numbers.

In theory, Sally could be eating 2000 calories and then up it to 2500 to maintain if that's what she wanted.

I'm asking because I have heard a lot of people say that people who do low calorie diets always end up putting the weight back on and then some when they reach their goal and start eating for maintainence instead of weight loss and that doesn't make sense to me.

Here, we can use me as an example. I'll run my actual numbers:

According to this: http://www.freedieting.com/tools/calorie_calculator.htm

I require 1255 calories right now for fat loss (MFP recommended 1200 so same general ballpark).

However, according to this same calculator, if I reach my goal weight, I will need 1471 to maintain that goal weight.

So if I ate to lose for a few months and then reached my goal and slowly upped my calories to maintain, why would people tell me I'd just gain all the weight back?

There are more variables to this problem, i.e. what kind of calories are you consuming, are you exercising, etc.

But here are my two cents. By no mean am I an expert but here I go.

3,500 calories = 1 lb, Take 200 calories off your intake and burn 300 calories when working out 7 times a week and you get 1 lb loss! You could cut all the calories from food and not workout too, whatever floats your boat.

That being said, If you eat less calories than your body needs, it will go into starvation mode. Your body will keep more of the calories because it think it needs to save the calories.

I would just adjust your caloric intake based on your body weight and workout schedule.

kimg68

Is Sally nice, because if she is a bully then we don't care if she gains her weight back.

Funniest thing I have read all day :flowerforyou:

psuLemon

I think what you are trying to get at is this... When you do low calorie diets (WW, SouthBeach, etc..) the reason why people gain back very easily is two fold; first, as sidesteal suggested, they go back to the way they normally ate. The other is the fact that LCD increase the chances of muscle loss. So previously, you could have had maintenance calories of 1900 but after 6 months of a LCD, you now have maintenance calories of 1600. It just means after a long period of LCD and you return to maintenance, you can only add a few calories as opposed to a larger amount. This is why LCD's are so ineffective long term because it creates a situation where you maintenance calories is severely suppressed due to your suppressing your metabolism and killing your lean body mass. I have seen some VLCD that end up causing your body to lose 50% of it's weight from lbm. This is why many of us suggest a moderate deficit (20% less than tdee to include exercise [hopefully that exercise includes heavy weight training]) in order to reduce muscle loss and maintain your metabolic rate.


At 1200 calories yourself, if you are any kind of active, you are not in a situation for just fat loss, but rather probably high in muscle loss too. If you don't believe me, I would suggest tracking your body fat and read the below links.


http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/729141-exercise-calories-to-eat-or-not-to-eat-results

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/395948-caloric-intake-results?hl=caloric+intake+results&page=1#posts-5425208

psuLemon

Who are these 'people' and why would Sally want to eat so little anyway?

These are just random numbers.

In theory, Sally could be eating 2000 calories and then up it to 2500 to maintain if that's what she wanted.

I'm asking because I have heard a lot of people say that people who do low calorie diets always end up putting the weight back on and then some when they reach their goal and start eating for maintainence instead of weight loss and that doesn't make sense to me.

Here, we can use me as an example. I'll run my actual numbers:

According to this: http://www.freedieting.com/tools/calorie_calculator.htm

I require 1255 calories right now for fat loss (MFP recommended 1200 so same general ballpark).

However, according to this same calculator, if I reach my goal weight, I will need 1471 to maintain that goal weight.

So if I ate to lose for a few months and then reached my goal and slowly upped my calories to maintain, why would people tell me I'd just gain all the weight back?

Keep in mind that MPF is only as smart as the person inputting the data. MFP doesn't know how much you have to lose until you get into a healthy range. MFP doesn't know how much lean body mass you have (nor do most people). And if you have very little to lose and you want to lose 2 lbs a week, then MFP will probably arbitrarily cut you to 1200 calories as that's the least acceptable amount. Where as, you should be following the below guidelines.

If you have 75+ lbs to lose 2 lbs/week is ideal,
If you have 40-75 lbs to lose 1.5 lbs/week is ideal,
If you have 25-40 lbs to lose 1 lbs/week is ideal,
If you have 15 -25 lbs to lose 0.5 to 1.0 lbs/week is ideal, and
If you have less than 15 lbs to lose 0.5 lbs/week is ideal.

HypersonicFitNess

Help me understand something that confuses me because I fail at science…

Let’s just use random numbers. Say Sally eats 1200 calories a day for 6 months, mostly healthy low calorie foods. She loses the weight she wanted to lose and then she slowly ups her intake to 1600 a day (or whatever # maintenance is for her new weight) and stays there with the hopes of maintaining her new weight.

(these are made up numbers & I don’t actually know anyone named Sally)

People always says that if Sally does this, she is going to gain back all the weight and then some because she lost the weight by eating a low calorie amount.

Someone explain to me why that would happen?

Not true b/c I am Sally (not my name) - I ate healthy 1200-1300 calories (I'm sure there were days I had a few more) for 6 months; I lost 35 lbs. I exercised about 30 minutes per day 4 days of cardio and 3 days of weights

I changed to maintenance calories of 1500-1600 calories (maybe more on some days) - I never gained an ounce in over 4 years.

I DID gain some weight last year but I was eating over 2000 calories and it had to do with being stuck in a hotel for a few months with no home and my cat dying and I was eating cake.....not good calories.

Edited - when I said I was eating cake I don't mean A piece of cake, I mean a piece of cake for lunch, a piece of cake for dinner and the same the next day.....I was in a bad place; I don't plan to go there again.

LorinaLynn

I don't know Sally, but I know Lorina.

Lorina lost weight in the past eating less than 1200, but wasn't happy with her body when she reached her goal weight, and decided, "F this!" because it just wasn't worth it. Since she was no longer watching what she ate, the weight came back on. No surprise there.

But this time around, Lorina lost weight eating 1350-1600 plus exercise calories, so often a total of 1800-2000 calories, and felt great while losing. She enjoyed exercise, not only because it allowed her to eat normally, but because it made her feel energized and happier, and her body looked pretty damn good. Since she never trained her body to survive on minimal calories, and didn't lose a ton of lean muscle while losing weight, maintaining her weight is a snap. She's able to eat well over 2000 calories a day.

californiagirl2012

I don't know Sally, but I know Lorina.

Lorina lost weight in the past eating less than 1200, but wasn't happy with her body when she reached her goal weight, and decided, "F this!" because it just wasn't worth it. Since she was no longer watching what she ate, the weight came back on. No surprise there.

But this time around, Lorina lost weight eating 1350-1600 plus exercise calories, so often a total of 1800-2000 calories, and felt great while losing. She enjoyed exercise, not only because it allowed her to eat normally, but because it made her feel energized and happier, and her body looked pretty damn good. Since she never trained her body to survive on minimal calories, and didn't lose a ton of lean muscle while losing weight, maintaining her weight is a snap. She's able to eat well over 2000 calories a day.

It's nice to be taller isn't it? I'm short and will never be able to eat 2000 calories a day because my RMR is only 1380. It's much harder for the shorter girls.. go easy on them please.

Sarauk2sf

I don't know Sally, but I know Lorina.

Lorina lost weight in the past eating less than 1200, but wasn't happy with her body when she reached her goal weight, and decided, "F this!" because it just wasn't worth it. Since she was no longer watching what she ate, the weight came back on. No surprise there.

But this time around, Lorina lost weight eating 1350-1600 plus exercise calories, so often a total of 1800-2000 calories, and felt great while losing. She enjoyed exercise, not only because it allowed her to eat normally, but because it made her feel energized and happier, and her body looked pretty damn good. Since she never trained her body to survive on minimal calories, and didn't lose a ton of lean muscle while losing weight, maintaining her weight is a snap. She's able to eat well over 2000 calories a day.

It's nice to be taller isn't it? I'm short and will never be able to eat 2000 calories a day because my RMR is only 1380. It's much harder for the shorter girls.. go easy on them please.

One of my friends on here is less than 5 foot and 100lb - she eats over 2,000 to maintain. There are many like her. And with all due respect, age is a factor (no dig as I am not that far behind you)

Edited to fix typo and to add clarifyer.

marthadztx

Poor poor Sally!

tragicpixie

I am like... so over confused reading answers to this question BUT... if Sally's maintenance calories based on her body type, height, and desired weight are 1600 and she eats 1600 after eating 1200 for X amount of months to lose weight she will maintain weight.
UNLESS:
1. Sally was eating much less than 1200 calories to lose weight.... like say eating 600 calories to lose weight. This is too little food and has put her body into starvation mode: meaning the weight lost was some fat, but more likely muscle mass and in response when she begins re-feeding her body will be more likely to hold onto weight

2. Sally does not stick to any new exercise habits: that level of activity could be figuring into the 1600 maintenance calories. Say she lost weight cutting calories AND going to the gym doing 45 minutes of cardio five days a week. The combination of quitting the cardio and an increase in calories *could* cause her to gain weight. That all really depends on body type etc. but easily could happen. The exercise is likely calculated into the maintenance calories.

3. Sally lost weight following say... Atkins diet where she cut out certain food groups like carbs (which often have more calories). For her maintenance, Sally does not follow an Atkins maintenance plan and goes back to old eating habits. Even if she stays in the calorie amount, the body may react different to junk food. This is especially true if low-sodium was a part of weight loss since it causes your body to hold onto more water weight or for people who cut out soda to lose weight, then begin drinking it again.

4. Similar to number 3 but Sally lost weight using Slimfast or any other food replacement program: without that food replacement program Sally hasn't learned to make healthy food choices. Thus, unintentionally, Sally makes bad food choices and actually ends up eating more than her 1600 maintenance calories and so gains weight.*

All of these scenarios are probably what "people" are talking about. Sometimes these things happen and especially with crash diets; people don't learn to make a lifestyle change they just think of the "diet" as for X amount of item to lose X amount of pounds then go back to the way they were before. MFP is designed to avoided this because it tries to help "teach" you about healthy food choices and get into a more active lifestyle.

*While there's nothing wrong per-say with Slimfast or other food replacement programs, this often does lead to yo-yoing with weight because once the person accomplishes the weight loss goal they begin to re-introduce foods that weren't the best choices in the first place into their diet.

ArroganceInStep

I gave up drinking for lent once during my party years. It is probably the most substantial sacrifice for lent I've ever successfully made..

The night lent wrapped up I want on a 3 day bender and drank my face off.

This is an extreme example of the claim 'you'll just gain it all back'

If you do something extreme to lose weight and then eat at maintenance, you will by definition maintain.

The problem is that an extreme diet is often used when the person going on the diet is impatient and wants the quick fix solution. If they go back to their old habits after dieting...they'll go back to their old weight.

That's the crux of the issue.

Cat52169

Is Sally nice, because if she is a bully then we don't care if she gains her weight back.

LOL! I love you!!!

Ruthe8

No one has ever said that, OP. People who go on crash diets generally don't continue to track their calories once they get to maintenance, or they try and find themselves gorging on way too much food.

bcattoes

People always says that if Sally does this, she is going to gain back all the weight and then some because she lost the weight by eating a low calorie amount.

Assuming your made up numbers are correct given your example, then "People" are wrong.

This ^^ If she is gaining, then clearly she is not eating maintenance calories.

geekyjock76

The amount of lean mass recovery vs fat mass recovery depends on what your starting body fat percentage was prior to calorie restriction, percent of deficit and reduction in BMR during restriction vs adjusted BMR during refeeding as well. For those starting out at higher body fat percentages and on VLCD, you can read this experiment:

Autoregulation of body composition during weight recovery in human: the Minnesota Experiment revisited.
Dulloo AG, Jacquet J, Girardier L.
Source
Department of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Geneva, Switzerland.
Abstract
OBJECTIVES:
To gain insights into the control systems underlying human variability in the regulation of body composition during weight recovery, as well as the disproportionate recovery of fat relative to lean tissue, the classical Minnesota Experiment conducted on 32 men subjected to long-term semi-starvation and refeeding was revisited with the following objectives: (1) to determine whether the control of energy-partitioning between lean and fat tissues during weight loss and weight recovery is an individual characteristic, and if a predictor can be statistically identified, (2) to determine whether the reduction in thermogenesis during weight loss persists during weight recovery, and underlies the disproportionate recovery of fat tissue and (3) to integrate the control of energy-partitioning and that of thermogenesis in order to explain the pattern of lean and fat tissue mobilisation and deposition during weight loss and weight recovery.
METHODS:
Individual data on body weight, body fat, fat-free-mass (FFM), and basal metabolic rate (BMR), assessed during the control baseline period (i.e. prior to weight loss), at the end of 24 weeks of semi-starvation, and at the end of a 12 week period of restricted refeeding, were used to calculate the following parameters: (i) a quantitative index of energy-partitioning, the P-ratio, defined as the proportion of body energy mobilised as protein during weight loss, or as the proportion of body energy deposited as protein during weight recovery, (ii) a quantitative index of changes in thermogenesis, defined as the change in BMR adjusted for FFM (or for both FFM and fat mass) and (iii) the degree of replenishment of fat and FFM compartments, defined as the recovery of body fat and FFM (during refeeding) as a percentage of that lost during semi-starvation.
RESULTS:
This re-analysis indicates the following: (i) a large inter-individual variability in P-ratio during both weight loss and weight recovery, but for a given individual, the P-ratio during refeeding is strongly correlated with the P-ratio during semi-starvation, (ii) body composition during the control period is the most important predictor of variability in P-ratio, such that the higher the initial % body fat, the lower the proportion of energy mobilised as protein, and hence the greater the propensity to mobilise fat during semi-starvation and to subsequently deposit fat during refeeding and (iii) at week 12 of refeeding, the change in adjusted BMR is found to be reduced by a magnitude which is inversely proportional to the degree of fat recovery, but is unrelated to the degree of FFM recovery. A quantitative relationship is derived between the P-ratio during refeeding, the % fat recovery, and the P-ratio during semi-starvation.
CONCLUSIONS:
Evidence is presented here suggesting that (i) human variability in the pattern of lean and fat tissue deposition during weight recovery is to a large extent determined by individual variations in the control of energy-partitioning, for which the initial % body fat is the most important predictor and (ii) the disproportionate gain in fat relative to lean tissue during weight recovery is contributed by a reduction in thermogenesis (i.e. increased efficiency of food utilization) for accelerating specifically the replenishment of the fat stores. These control systems, operating via energy-partitioning and thermogenesis, have been integrated into a compartmental model for the regulation of body composition during underfeeding/refeeding, and can be used to explain the individual pattern of lean and fat tissue deposition during weight recovery in situations ranging from the rehabilitation after malnutrition to the relapse of obesity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8696417