High rep, low weight has to be worth something, right?
Replies
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When I read DavPul's posts, I sense a lot of negativity. It's the classic "I'm right, you're wrong" argument without really considering all the variables.
The funny thing is that if DavPul were to have me train him for a session is that we would do a variety of rep ranges, but the high reps would kill him the most.
I have a relatively skinny client right now that started with me a month ago and has already gained 10 lbs of mass doing a variety of rep ranges. I am confident that one of the best builders so far has been the Kettlebell squat ladders I have him do.
10 reps with heavy kettlebell --> immediately to 15 reps with medium kettlebell --> 20 reps with a light kettlebell.
When I give free fitness assessments, I train most men using that parameter and they absolutely dig the workout. As for progress, we just start with a heavier kettlebell or use less rest periods.
What DavPul fails to realize is that every body is different and every training system is different. I am interested to hear about other people's training styles...
My job is to have a broad knowledge of many types of exercise and then prescribe specific parameters for my clients. Sometimes they will benefit from 10-20 rep sets. If it's easy, you're doing it wrong.0 -
DavPul - I do agree that low reps heavy weight is the ideal for increasing strength and or explosive power, but how do you explain those people who workout with nothing but their own bodyweight and exhibit incredible strength? Or the yoga practitioner who can hold amazing postures that appear to defy gravity? What about the gymnast who is able to hold the crucifix on the rings.
Many of these have fine physiques but do not appear strong if placed against someone who lifts heavy, but no-one can say they do not possess strength.
Not trying to stir the pot - just my observation as someone who has lifted heavy 20+ years ago and now practises Yogaand body resistance exercises for strength and well being.
Those are excellent things to do! I do yoga 2x per week and a bodyweight routine 3x per week. Neither of those involves 20+ reps with dumbbells. And since the average male weighs 160 lbs+ (I weigh 226), we can't really consider that "light" weight/high reps, can we? There's a group of guys that do chip up bar exercises all day in Venice that look FANFRIGGINGTASTIC. They never go to a gym. But doing muscle ups and human flags, even if you CAN do 20 of them, is NOT light weight.0 -
.When I read DavPul's posts, I sense a lot of negativity. It's the classic "I'm right, you're wrong" argument without really considering all the variables.
The funny thing is that if DavPul were to have me train him for a session is that we would do a variety of rep ranges, but the high reps would kill him the most.
I have a relatively skinny client right now that started with me a month ago and has already gained 10 lbs of mass doing a variety of rep ranges. I am confident that one of the best builders so far has been the Kettlebell squat ladders I have him do.
10 reps with heavy kettlebell --> immediately to 15 reps with medium kettlebell --> 20 reps with a light kettlebell.
When I give free fitness assessments, I train most men using that parameter and they absolutely dig the workout. As for progress, we just start with a heavier kettlebell or use less rest periods.
What DavPul fails to realize is that every body is different and every training system is different. I am interested to hear about other people's training styles...
My job is to have a broad knowledge of many types of exercise and then prescribe specific parameters for my clients. Sometimes they will benefit from 10-20 rep sets. If it's easy, you're doing it wrong.
whatever you say bub. your 20 rep sets would not kill me, believe me on that. they would, however, bore me. And they wouldn't assist in my progress. just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are ignorant and haven't seen all the variables. sometimes it just means you're wrong. have a good lyfe.0 -
til ya feel the burnnnnn:glasses:0
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ummm, by and largely no. The foundations for training is pretty set in stone and universal amongst the population. How the body responds to stimulus is pretty concrete and not genetically different.What DavPul fails to realize is that every body is different and every training system is different. I am interested to hear about other people's training styles...0 -
they exhibit incredible strength because they do strength training using body weight instead of endurance training using bodyweight....DavPul - I do agree that low reps heavy weight is the ideal for increasing strength and or explosive power, but how do you explain those people who workout with nothing but their own bodyweight and exhibit incredible strength? Or the yoga practitioner who can hold amazing postures that appear to defy gravity? What about the gymnast who is able to hold the crucifix on the rings.
Many of these have fine physiques but do not appear strong if placed against someone who lifts heavy, but no-one can say they do not possess strength.
Not trying to stir the pot - just my observation as someone who has lifted heavy 20+ years ago and now practises Yogaand body resistance exercises for strength and well being.0 -
And so how does this factor into 20 rep sets in your opinion?
ummm, by and largely no. The foundations for training is pretty set in stone and universal amongst the population. How the body responds to stimulus is pretty concrete and not genetically different.What DavPul fails to realize is that every body is different and every training system is different. I am interested to hear about other people's training styles...0 -
When I read DavPul's posts, I sense a lot of negativity. It's the classic "I'm right, you're wrong" argument without really considering all the variables.
The funny thing is that if DavPul were to have me train him for a session is that we would do a variety of rep ranges, but the high reps would kill him the most.
I have a relatively skinny client right now that started with me a month ago and has already gained 10 lbs of mass doing a variety of rep ranges. I am confident that one of the best builders so far has been the Kettlebell squat ladders I have him do.
10 reps with heavy kettlebell --> immediately to 15 reps with medium kettlebell --> 20 reps with a light kettlebell.
When I give free fitness assessments, I train most men using that parameter and they absolutely dig the workout. As for progress, we just start with a heavier kettlebell or use less rest periods.
What DavPul fails to realize is that every body is different and every training system is different. I am interested to hear about other people's training styles...
My job is to have a broad knowledge of many types of exercise and then prescribe specific parameters for my clients. Sometimes they will benefit from 10-20 rep sets. If it's easy, you're doing it wrong.
No you don't sense negativity. You sense facts. You are a trainer? For real?? Hard to believe.0 -
DavPul - I do agree that low reps heavy weight is the ideal for increasing strength and or explosive power, but how do you explain those people who workout with nothing but their own bodyweight and exhibit incredible strength? Or the yoga practitioner who can hold amazing postures that appear to defy gravity? What about the gymnast who is able to hold the crucifix on the rings.
Many of these have fine physiques but do not appear strong if placed against someone who lifts heavy, but no-one can say they do not possess strength.
Not trying to stir the pot - just my observation as someone who has lifted heavy 20+ years ago and now practises Yogaand body resistance exercises for strength and well being.
Those are excellent things to do! I do yoga 2x per week and a bodyweight routine 3x per week. Neither of those involves 20+ reps with dumbbells. And since the average male weighs 160 lbs+ (I weigh 226), we can't really consider that "light" weight/high reps, can we? There's a group of guys that do chip up bar exercises all day in Venice that look FANFRIGGINGTASTIC. They never go to a gym. But doing muscle ups and human flags, even if you CAN do 20 of them, is NOT light weight.
So 20RM is not light weight for some exercises.
A few things to consider...
The exercise can be
-Explosive or static, or full ROM with tempo.
-Incorporating full body, or isolated body parts
-Work capacity / endurance focused
20 reps is high reps.
The flaw of OP's question is that he says "low weight." Low weight is relative. Low compared to your 1RM maybe. Many people will still respond well to higher reps, especially on the bang for the buck exercises.
Also any muscles which are slow twitch dominant or contain significant slow twitch fibers will likely produce hypertrophy at a higher rep range.0 -
Bring it on guys, progression is everything.0
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What we are trying to say, but you are refusing to hear, is that no matter which of those measures of progress you're looking for, 20 rep sets will NOT get you there. N-O-T NOT NOT NOT. Watch my lips so you can see the words come out. NOT. GONNA. GET. YOU. THERE.
Tell that to Kroc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7jAIdoORxI 0 -
What we are trying to say, but you are refusing to hear, is that no matter which of those measures of progress you're looking for, 20 rep sets will NOT get you there. N-O-T NOT NOT NOT. Watch my lips so you can see the words come out. NOT. GONNA. GET. YOU. THERE.
Tell that to Krochttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7jAIdoORxI
What is that vid supposed to prove? He's just showing how many reps he can do with 225. I've seen him DB row 300 for 11 too. Do you think he would recommend doing lower weight in 20+ rep sets versus higher weight with less reps if you asked him? If I remember correctly, he specifically designed his own DBs so he could increase the weight to 300lbs because doing 225 for high reps wasn't getting him where he wanted to be. So basically your example is exactly the opposite of what you're trying to defend.0 -
I hate when I post and win the thread and people ignore me and continue arguing. So again:
http://www.leangains.com/2010/08/high-reps-vs-low-reps-for-muscle-gain.html
They basically agree that there could be a benefit to doing some lower weight higher rep work. It was my understanding that the OP wasn't saying he was planning to exclusively switch to high rep work, but rather that he didn't have access to normal equipment and was hoping to gain something from low rep work. The answer is "sure, it is probably worth something"
/endthread0 -
Win a thread?
Since when does that happen? Mwhahaha ...0 -
there's no need to cancel your high-weight workout just becuase you dont have any big equipment:
can you do:
1 arm pushups?
1 leg squats?
handstand pushups?
if you cant, then you can train towards them to get a low-rep, 'max weight' bodyweight only training regime. That's what I'm doing...
there's 1 hand pull-ups too, although you do need some equipment for that. If you can find a copy of 'convict conditioning' then it's a great guide to the progression steps for each.0 -
there's no need to cancel your high-weight workout just becuase you dont have any big equipment:
can you do:
1 arm pushups?
1 leg squats?
handstand pushups?
if you cant, then you can train towards them to get a low-rep, 'max weight' bodyweight only training regime. That's what I'm doing...
there's 1 hand pull-ups too, although you do need some equipment for that. If you can find a copy of 'convict conditioning' then it's a great guide to the progression steps for each.
+1, thanks for offering good suggestions. You can be your own gym and use what you have.0 -
Op here....
I did mention specifically : pair of 8kg (17.5lb, so total weight for the 2 is 35lb) dumbellsThe flaw of OP's question is that he says "low weight." Low weight is relative.
Yep, precisely what i was saying.... back on the bigger weight tomorrow.They basically agree that there could be a benefit to doing some lower weight higher rep work. It was my understanding that the OP wasn't saying he was planning to exclusively switch to high rep work, but rather that he didn't have access to normal equipment and was hoping to gain something from low rep work. The answer is "sure, it is probably worth something
I saw your post
Win a thread?I hate when I post and win the thread and people ignore me and continue arguing
Since when does that happen? Mwhahaha ...
Plus, i couldn't resist googling "win a thread"
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What we are trying to say, but you are refusing to hear, is that no matter which of those measures of progress you're looking for, 20 rep sets will NOT get you there. N-O-T NOT NOT NOT. Watch my lips so you can see the words come out. NOT. GONNA. GET. YOU. THERE.
Tell that to Krochttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7jAIdoORxI
What is that vid supposed to prove? He's just showing how many reps he can do with 225. I've seen him DB row 300 for 11 too. Do you think he would recommend doing lower weight in 20+ rep sets versus higher weight with less reps if you asked him? If I remember correctly, he specifically designed his own DBs so he could increase the weight to 300lbs because doing 225 for high reps wasn't getting him where he wanted to be. So basically your example is exactly the opposite of what you're trying to defend.
"I started knocking the 225s out for sets of 25 reps and my upper back strength and size increased significantly. I also noticed my old problem with locking out my deadlifts had completely disappeared – I was able to easily finish any pull that I could get to my knees."
"I explained to Jim how they vastly improved my grip strength and how that had carried over to improving my deadlift lockout, not to mention adding significant size and strength to my upper back.
Jim started doing the rows, became a fan, and started recommending them to some powerlifters he knew – and all reported immediate improvements in grip and upper back strength, which also carried over to their deadlift maxes."
-Matt Kroczaleski
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/kroc_rows_101
The lesson I take away from this is that there probably is some strength and physique potential which would need to be activated by the higher rep range.0 -
There's a flaw with using pros as examples. He's using 225lbs dumbbells for this after already having a world class elite level of strength. And he's using it as an accessory to a main lift to further improve upon that.What we are trying to say, but you are refusing to hear, is that no matter which of those measures of progress you're looking for, 20 rep sets will NOT get you there. N-O-T NOT NOT NOT. Watch my lips so you can see the words come out. NOT. GONNA. GET. YOU. THERE.
Tell that to Krochttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7jAIdoORxI
What is that vid supposed to prove? He's just showing how many reps he can do with 225. I've seen him DB row 300 for 11 too. Do you think he would recommend doing lower weight in 20+ rep sets versus higher weight with less reps if you asked him? If I remember correctly, he specifically designed his own DBs so he could increase the weight to 300lbs because doing 225 for high reps wasn't getting him where he wanted to be. So basically your example is exactly the opposite of what you're trying to defend.
"I started knocking the 225s out for sets of 25 reps and my upper back strength and size increased significantly. I also noticed my old problem with locking out my deadlifts had completely disappeared – I was able to easily finish any pull that I could get to my knees."
"I explained to Jim how they vastly improved my grip strength and how that had carried over to improving my deadlift lockout, not to mention adding significant size and strength to my upper back.
Jim started doing the rows, became a fan, and started recommending them to some powerlifters he knew – and all reported immediate improvements in grip and upper back strength, which also carried over to their deadlift maxes."
-Matt Kroczaleski
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/kroc_rows_101
The lesson I take away from this is that there probably is some strength and physique potential which would need to be activated by the higher rep range.
He is NOT using this as a means to start, or get to where he is. This is the main point that noone seems to grasp. World elite lifters are NOT representitive of the untrained population. So doing what they do is NOT what you should take seriously.
It's the same argument when tiny people try and follow elite level bodybuilding routines. They point at ronnie coleman and say he's doing 8-12 reps for most everything, and doing very high rep work on other things, if it works for him, then it must be the best way, right?
What they seem to forget is that ronnie was a powerlifter for his start into lifting and was putting our world elite numbers far before he started lifting for size.
Yes high rep has it's place, but for most beginners, you're hard pressed finding that place... Most everything is is FAR superior.0 -
boys need an *kitten* too ya know
lol0 -
Is this a joke?When I read DavPul's posts, I sense a lot of negativity. It's the classic "I'm right, you're wrong" argument without really considering all the variables.
The funny thing is that if DavPul were to have me train him for a session is that we would do a variety of rep ranges, but the high reps would kill him the most.
I have a relatively skinny client right now that started with me a month ago and has already gained 10 lbs of mass doing a variety of rep ranges. I am confident that one of the best builders so far has been the Kettlebell squat ladders I have him do.
10 reps with heavy kettlebell --> immediately to 15 reps with medium kettlebell --> 20 reps with a light kettlebell.
When I give free fitness assessments, I train most men using that parameter and they absolutely dig the workout. As for progress, we just start with a heavier kettlebell or use less rest periods.
What DavPul fails to realize is that every body is different and every training system is different. I am interested to hear about other people's training styles...
My job is to have a broad knowledge of many types of exercise and then prescribe specific parameters for my clients. Sometimes they will benefit from 10-20 rep sets. If it's easy, you're doing it wrong.
The high reps will "kill" your client for the simple fact of muscle failure. Before he/she has reach the last 20 reps, they just completed 25 reps with varying weights.
We all should train in different rep ranges. That being said, I see little to no point in going above 15 reps per set.0 -
Yes high rep has it's place
Therefore worth something.0 -
I did mention specifically : pair of 8kg (17.5lb, so total weight for the 2 is 35lb) dumbells
OP, so what did you decide to do with those, out of curiosity?0 -
bump0
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