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Does Age Matter
mlb929
Posts: 1,974 Member
Just finished my marathon and need to take time off running due to an injury. So I will be focussing on upper body and lifting. I've done P90X once, and P90X2 once, I love lifting, love my kettlebell (but can't do it right now because of low ceilings) and I"m not afraid to lift heavy. However, as a runner, I've been focussing on more reps and lighter weights - ie, bicep curls using 15's instead of 25's.
However, no matter how hard I try, I never see muscle definition. I have muscle, body fat about 17% on last measure, and I"m fit. But I want to see curved defined muscles in my arms, shoulders and back, like I can see in my legs (thank you running).
I take testosterone by RX and under Dr's care, but I'm careful to not take too much from obvious side effects. Because I'm in the "over 40" crowd, does that make it harder for me. Should I take supplements, like Creatine, would that make a difference. I'm focussing on upper body and for next 6 weeks of recovery, probably P90X2 Phase 2.
Do I need to change something up due to my age, I don't want to add muscle per se, just shape what I have already.
However, no matter how hard I try, I never see muscle definition. I have muscle, body fat about 17% on last measure, and I"m fit. But I want to see curved defined muscles in my arms, shoulders and back, like I can see in my legs (thank you running).
I take testosterone by RX and under Dr's care, but I'm careful to not take too much from obvious side effects. Because I'm in the "over 40" crowd, does that make it harder for me. Should I take supplements, like Creatine, would that make a difference. I'm focussing on upper body and for next 6 weeks of recovery, probably P90X2 Phase 2.
Do I need to change something up due to my age, I don't want to add muscle per se, just shape what I have already.
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Replies
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If you want to see muscle you need to go heavy, and yes age matters. You're fighting against the normal (about 1% per year) loss of muscle mass men over 40 suffer from and, even with supplementation testosterone levels also decline with age (some of this effect can be mitigated with weight training - apparently squats are supposed to be really good in this dept).
I always figure at 56 I have to work twice as hard to get half the results( fortunately my focus is on running and trying to preserve lean muscle mass)0 -
You're not going to see much muscle separation until you get closer to 10%, and that's if you have a good amount of muscle mass in the first place.0
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i lifted from my teenage years at until my late twenties. i took 13 off and started again 40. the biggest difference in this 40 yr old body vs 20yr old version is difficulty getting lean. i was able to build muscle about the same but i had to really lower my cals to get my bf% around 13.0
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stop using high reps and lower weights.
reverse it now.
Itll be ok.0 -
Don't be afraid of heavier weights. You'll get better results, and it won't hurt your running ability.
I was afraid of bulking up at first too as running is my main priority, but it hasn't hurt me a bit, and in fact I'm pretty sure it's helped.
Nor do I have huge muscles; just less jiggle than before (yay).
I'm not quite 40 yet, but at 35 already I see that things are different than at 20. Good sleep / good nutrition are no longer optional for me if I want a good recovery.
I will also say that there are women in my gym aged 50-70, and while it may take more effort for them to get results, they do get excellent results. I've watched a 65-year-old woman increase her back squat from 70 pounds to 90 pounds over the last year, during a stage of life when most people are losing strength. And several of the 50+ year-olds have strength and muscle definition that I think most 30-year-olds would envy. It can be done!0 -
Try doing a daily yoga session of about an hour a day for 30 days - solong as you continue to eat within your calorie deficit and put your whole commitment into the yoga every day - you will see your definition and revitalise your body into the bargain. Your body is the only resistance you need.0
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Age is just a number and an excuse, I will be 43 in less than 2 months. P90x is the problem, great cardio but thats it, try more lifting and lifting heavy, less cardio and increasing the amount of protein and cals that you consume. I lost 83 lbs down to 8% BF. and gained over 20 lbs of muscle over the past 19 months. starting at the age of 41.0
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I'm in the over 60 segment. As you age it takes a little longer to develop your m uscle structure and recovery times can be a little longer but not so much that you can't show progress. As others have mentioned, the weight and rep ranges you are working in will not accomplish showing muscle definition. Also, definition is primarily a function of lower body fat. But you can develop good muscle structure will a program that involves lifting for both strength and hypertrophy.
I am doing a modified version of Layne Norton's PHAT program. I was doing Starting Strength for about 7 months but have switched recently do build a little more lean muscle tissue. PHAT combines strength (the P is for power) and Hypertrophy (H). The program as designed is too much volume for me so I've made some adjustments and so far so good. If you'd like to know more PM me and I'll lay it out for you. Bottom line is being older makes it happen a little slower but it certainly can be done.0 -
You're lucky to have definition in your legs. Age matters. A lot.
I used to play soccer on a men's over-40 team. The guys I played with all looked great if you saw them i their suits. You'd think 'Wow, that guy is in phenomenal shape!' and you would probably guess he was 5 years younger than he actually was. These guys are all able to sprint for 90 minutes, for God's sake.
But, on Sundays, in the shorts and the uniform shirt, they all looked like the old Andy Capp-cartoon characters. Little pounch. Skinny legs. No butt. Not many exceptions.
I know women are different, but . . . not in this. I think there is an age where you start to look a little better with some fat. You NEED the fat!0 -
No it doesnt! Age is just an excuse!! Almost as good as an excuse as genetics is!You're lucky to have definition in your legs. Age matters. A lot.
I used to play soccer on a men's over-40 team. The guys I played with all looked great if you saw them i their suits. You'd think 'Wow, that guy is in phenomenal shape!' and you would probably guess he was 5 years younger than he actually was. These guys are all able to sprint for 90 minutes, for God's sake.
But, on Sundays, in the shorts and the uniform shirt, they all looked like the old Andy Capp-cartoon characters. Little pounch. Skinny legs. No butt. Not many exceptions.
I know women are different, but . . . not in this. I think there is an age where you start to look a little better with some fat. You NEED the fat!0 -
Not wishing to set off an argument - just bringing my contribution to the table - but how do you heavy lifters account for the fact that many men who do yoga as their sole form of exercise have a reasonable muscle mass and notable definition?
Obviously I am not talking about the kind of mass that is developed through lifting heavy but the physique of someone who is seriously into yoga is not weedy weak either.
Yoga also has a profound effect on the internal organs and also the glands, including testosterone, which is an important factor as we enter our golden years.
I am not saying one is better than the other, though I am biased, but just that there is more than one approach to physique, health and visual development.
@FlyeredUp: I agree - age is just an excuse!0 -
No offense, but if you can't see definition, you're probably not at 17% body fat. I'm not saying you're not fit. But you would have to have very little muscle to be at 17% and not able to see muscle.
As others have said, lift heavy, or at least lift until your muscles are really fatigued. I personally think lifting heavy is the ****... but I don't think that if you don't lift heavy you can never get the body you want. I think you just need sufficient stimulus for your body to think "we need muscle if this is happening often..."0 -
Not wishing to set off an argument - just bringing my contribution to the table - but how do you heavy lifters account for the fact that many men who do yoga as their sole form of exercise have a reasonable muscle mass and notable definition?
Obviously I am not talking about the kind of mass that is developed through lifting heavy but the physique of someone who is seriously into yoga is not weedy weak either.
Yoga also has a profound effect on the internal organs and also the glands, including testosterone, which is an important factor as we enter our golden years.
I am not saying one is better than the other, though I am biased, but just that there is more than one approach to physique, health and visual development.
@FlyeredUp: I agree - age is just an excuse!
Can't really provide a perspective as I am not familiar with any men who do extensive yoga and am unfamiliar with the science and physiology of it.0 -
No it doesnt! Age is just an excuse!! Almost as good as an excuse as genetics is!You're lucky to have definition in your legs. Age matters. A lot.
I used to play soccer on a men's over-40 team. The guys I played with all looked great if you saw them i their suits. You'd think 'Wow, that guy is in phenomenal shape!' and you would probably guess he was 5 years younger than he actually was. These guys are all able to sprint for 90 minutes, for God's sake.
But, on Sundays, in the shorts and the uniform shirt, they all looked like the old Andy Capp-cartoon characters. Little pounch. Skinny legs. No butt. Not many exceptions.
I know women are different, but . . . not in this. I think there is an age where you start to look a little better with some fat. You NEED the fat!
@ FLYEREDUP Excuse me but genetics plays a big part in how your body is shaped. For example, I've accepted that my dreams of being shaped like Heidi Klum are not happening regardless of how many squats I do.
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Dont get me wrong!! Yoga is amazing but your resistance is limited to your body weight, to keep newly gained and add additional LM. you need to keep increasing the resistance. Some Pro athletes do yoga, almost every pro athlete lifts and lifts heavy.Not wishing to set off an argument - just bringing my contribution to the table - but how do you heavy lifters account for the fact that many men who do yoga as their sole form of exercise have a reasonable muscle mass and notable definition?
Obviously I am not talking about the kind of mass that is developed through lifting heavy but the physique of someone who is seriously into yoga is not weedy weak either.
Yoga also has a profound effect on the internal organs and also the glands, including testosterone, which is an important factor as we enter our golden years.
I am not saying one is better than the other, though I am biased, but just that there is more than one approach to physique, health and visual development.
@FlyeredUp: I agree - age is just an excuse!
Lifting heavy is like finding the fountain of youth!!0 -
as far as height, yes, body shape etc. no.
No it doesnt! Age is just an excuse!! Almost as good as an excuse as genetics is!You're lucky to have definition in your legs. Age matters. A lot.
I used to play soccer on a men's over-40 team. The guys I played with all looked great if you saw them i their suits. You'd think 'Wow, that guy is in phenomenal shape!' and you would probably guess he was 5 years younger than he actually was. These guys are all able to sprint for 90 minutes, for God's sake.
But, on Sundays, in the shorts and the uniform shirt, they all looked like the old Andy Capp-cartoon characters. Little pounch. Skinny legs. No butt. Not many exceptions.
I know women are different, but . . . not in this. I think there is an age where you start to look a little better with some fat. You NEED the fat!
@ FLYEREDUP Excuse me but genetics plays a big part in how your body is shaped. For example, I've accepted that my dreams of being shaped like Heidi Klum are not happening regardless of how many squats I do.0 -
Dont get me wrong!! Yoga is amazing but your resistance is limited to your body weight, to keep newly gained and add additional LM. you need to keep increasing the resistance. Some Pro athletes do yoga, almost every pro athlete lifts and lifts heavy.Not wishing to set off an argument - just bringing my contribution to the table - but how do you heavy lifters account for the fact that many men who do yoga as their sole form of exercise have a reasonable muscle mass and notable definition?
Obviously I am not talking about the kind of mass that is developed through lifting heavy but the physique of someone who is seriously into yoga is not weedy weak either.
Yoga also has a profound effect on the internal organs and also the glands, including testosterone, which is an important factor as we enter our golden years.
I am not saying one is better than the other, though I am biased, but just that there is more than one approach to physique, health and visual development.
@FlyeredUp: I agree - age is just an excuse!
Lifting heavy is like finding the fountain of youth!!
I can think of other things that are like finding the fountain of youth but that's a different thread...0 -
Numerous male pro athletes do yoga as part of their training programNot wishing to set off an argument - just bringing my contribution to the table - but how do you heavy lifters account for the fact that many men who do yoga as their sole form of exercise have a reasonable muscle mass and notable definition?
Obviously I am not talking about the kind of mass that is developed through lifting heavy but the physique of someone who is seriously into yoga is not weedy weak either.
Yoga also has a profound effect on the internal organs and also the glands, including testosterone, which is an important factor as we enter our golden years.
I am not saying one is better than the other, though I am biased, but just that there is more than one approach to physique, health and visual development.
@FlyeredUp: I agree - age is just an excuse!
Can't really provide a perspective as I am not familiar with any men who do extensive yoga and am unfamiliar with the science and physiology of it.0 -
Numerous pro athletes do yoga as part of their training programNot wishing to set off an argument - just bringing my contribution to the table - but how do you heavy lifters account for the fact that many men who do yoga as their sole form of exercise have a reasonable muscle mass and notable definition?
Obviously I am not talking about the kind of mass that is developed through lifting heavy but the physique of someone who is seriously into yoga is not weedy weak either.
Yoga also has a profound effect on the internal organs and also the glands, including testosterone, which is an important factor as we enter our golden years.
I am not saying one is better than the other, though I am biased, but just that there is more than one approach to physique, health and visual development.
@FlyeredUp: I agree - age is just an excuse!
Can't really provide a perspective as I am not familiar with any men who do extensive yoga and am unfamiliar with the science and physiology of it.
Interesting. For more than just active recovery and stretching on a rest day I assume? I do some for stretching and active recovery but not actualy training.0 -
Numerous male pro athletes do yoga as part of their training programNot wishing to set off an argument - just bringing my contribution to the table - but how do you heavy lifters account for the fact that many men who do yoga as their sole form of exercise have a reasonable muscle mass and notable definition?
Obviously I am not talking about the kind of mass that is developed through lifting heavy but the physique of someone who is seriously into yoga is not weedy weak either.
Yoga also has a profound effect on the internal organs and also the glands, including testosterone, which is an important factor as we enter our golden years.
I am not saying one is better than the other, though I am biased, but just that there is more than one approach to physique, health and visual development.
@FlyeredUp: I agree - age is just an excuse!
Can't really provide a perspective as I am not familiar with any men who do extensive yoga and am unfamiliar with the science and physiology of it.
@FlyeredUp: Name five then.0 -
I'm 45, I started seeing my muscles grow after starting to do basic lifts with heavy weights for me. I've lifted on and off since my twenties but always subscribed to the 3 sets of 12 and did not push myself to failure. I started doing squats, dead lifts, bench press, overhead press, back rows etc. I lift heavy enough that I can barely push out the last rep.
Of course make sure you get enough protein soon after working out. I take creatine before and after my workouts. I have noticed a difference when I take it. I also down a protein shake, eggs or meat afterwards.0 -
Dont get me wrong!! Yoga is amazing but your resistance is limited to your body weight, to keep newly gained and add additional LM. you need to keep increasing the resistance. Some Pro athletes do yoga, almost every pro athlete lifts and lifts heavy.Not wishing to set off an argument - just bringing my contribution to the table - but how do you heavy lifters account for the fact that many men who do yoga as their sole form of exercise have a reasonable muscle mass and notable definition?
Obviously I am not talking about the kind of mass that is developed through lifting heavy but the physique of someone who is seriously into yoga is not weedy weak either.
Yoga also has a profound effect on the internal organs and also the glands, including testosterone, which is an important factor as we enter our golden years.
I am not saying one is better than the other, though I am biased, but just that there is more than one approach to physique, health and visual development.
@FlyeredUp: I agree - age is just an excuse!
Lifting heavy is like finding the fountain of youth!!
Most pro athletes are less than 35 years old. Just sayin.
I do quite a bit of yoga. In classes too. From Chicago, to Aspen, to California. Never seen a guy over 45 years who did yoga and looked buff. Some looked fairly toned. But they were skinny, not muscular. And, it was not pretty seeing them with their shirts off.
Sorry. Age does matter. It can be an excuse, and it is no reason to give up. I have seen the few exceptions. But, in my opinion, guys who are older than 30 years -- maybe 40 -- should not take their shirt off at the beach, especially if they are standing next to a younger guy.0 -
Sorry, OP, to have sidetracked your thread. I hope you get some good advice. Seems like you are.0
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Dont get me wrong!! Yoga is amazing but your resistance is limited to your body weight, to keep newly gained and add additional LM. you need to keep increasing the resistance. Some Pro athletes do yoga, almost every pro athlete lifts and lifts heavy.
Lifting heavy is like finding the fountain of youth!!
That's fine if adding additional LM is your goal. We each have the raw materials to sculpt and it would be a boring world if we all looked the same. I couldn't shift the amount you could bench press I am sure and I guess I could show you yoga poses that would challenge you (I hope :blushing: ). There are many definitions of strength and body skills - depends on what drives you from your core.
You can add challenge to your own bodyweight exercises pretty much indefinitely for the average person, but this debate has been had elsewhere on the forum. My goal is not ever increasing muscle mass, but to be able to challenge my own body and to find it's own potential - and if it helps me to keep those glands working, the fat weight off and feeling good then I'm happy.
Teh original poster said he enjoyed lifting and that is great. I would encourage him to have a go at some yoga on maybe rest days though it is not as restful as many might imagine!
Have a look at this - maybe have a go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLi93EIHx5o&feature=related
credit to mightycollective.com0 -
Are you asking because we said to lift heavy instead of light?Not wishing to set off an argument - just bringing my contribution to the table - but how do you heavy lifters account for the fact that many men who do yoga as their sole form of exercise have a reasonable muscle mass and notable definition?
If so, the yoga guys you see with nice muscle definition are actually doing exercises that are "heavier" than a 15-pound bicep curl, in the sense that they are lifting their own body weight (100+ pounds) and in such a way that gravity/torque/leverage works against you to make it even harder.
Also, those guys have very low body fat (often on a vegan diet of whole foods -- they're not eating donuts and hamburgers and fries), so the muscle they do have will show nicely.
So it's not surprising that some guys can achieve good definition by doing serious yoga.
Whereas lifting 15-pound weights is not likely to get you there.
As far as why one would advise heavy lifting rather than yoga for building muscle (other than that the OP never expressed any interest in yoga), I think it's pretty clear that weightlifting is a faster and more effective way of building muscle. "Reasonable" muscle mass -- depends what your goals are. I think a lot of yoga guys look really really nice (I don't necessarily prefer huge muscles), but I know a lot of guys who wouldn't be content with the maximum muscle size achievable by yoga. It will also take a longer time to get there with just yoga. Building up to those really challenging poses that build some muscle takes years of practice. Whereas you can hit the heavy weights and see huge changes in your physique in a few months.
Certainly there are many health benefits to yoga (and to any number of other types of exercise), but the question here was how to most effectively build muscle.0 -
Are you asking because we said to lift heavy instead of light?Not wishing to set off an argument - just bringing my contribution to the table - but how do you heavy lifters account for the fact that many men who do yoga as their sole form of exercise have a reasonable muscle mass and notable definition?
If so, the yoga guys you see with nice muscle definition are actually doing exercises that are "heavier" than a 15-pound bicep curl, in the sense that they are lifting their own body weight (100+ pounds) and in such a way that gravity/torque/leverage works against you to make it even harder.
Also, those guys have very low body fat (often on a vegan diet of whole foods -- they're not eating donuts and hamburgers and fries), so the muscle they do have will show nicely.
So it's not surprising that some guys can achieve good definition by doing serious yoga.
Whereas lifting 15-pound weights is not likely to get you there.
As far as why one would advise heavy lifting rather than yoga for building muscle (other than that the OP never expressed any interest in yoga), I think it's pretty clear that weightlifting is a faster and more effective way of building muscle. "Reasonable" muscle mass -- depends what your goals are. I think a lot of yoga guys look really really nice (I don't necessarily prefer huge muscles), but I know a lot of guys who wouldn't be content with the maximum muscle size achievable by yoga. It will also take a longer time to get there with just yoga. Building up to those really challenging poses that build some muscle takes years of practice. Whereas you can hit the heavy weights and see huge changes in your physique in a few months.
Certainly there are many health benefits to yoga (and to any number of other types of exercise), but the question here was how to most effectively build muscle.
I totally agree with all of the above but I also thought I would offer my thoughts on this thread as an alternative and maybe offer an "out of the box" way of thinking to the OP. I'm certainly not suggesting that any path is superior to any other, but I admit - I am biased!
Totally agree about yoga guys teaching their muscles to carry far more bodyweight than light lifters compared to heavy lifters. There comes a time when heavy lifters clerly surpass the mechanical strength and physical muscle mass of a serious yogi - no contest there. But for me, I would never get that kind of physique into for example a Peacock Pose (Planche Pushup) and certainly not then be able to push up from there to a handstand! Different kinds of strength and physique but both defintiely more healthy than our former couch-selves.
Just thought I would offer the OP an alternative viewpoint, apologies if it was interpreted as derrailing the thread subject, or offering a superior view - it wasn't meant like that. :flowerforyou:0 -
Oh no, I was just trying to clarify what the goals, etc. might be.Just thought I would offer the OP an alternative viewpoint, apologies if it was interpreted as derrailing the thread subject, or offering a superior view - it wasn't meant like that. :flowerforyou:
Also, for some reason when I read the OP I didn't catch that he is male, so my examples of the me / women in my gym lifting heavy but not getting big muscles isn't terribly relevant.
OP obviously you would get bigger muscles than I would from heavy lifting, but if you end up with the "problem" of starting to get bigger than you'd like, you can always cut back.0 -
I'm going to argue that at age 52 it doesn't matter. I am a faster marathoner today and I soon will be stronger than I have ever been, and I have always been pretty fit and active. OK maybe I have to work harder now for the same result, but I also know more now so I am more efficient with my training. If I was an Olympian athlete when I was younger, then I couldn't take this position, but not many people were Olympians!0
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Oh no, I was just trying to clarify what the goals, etc. might be.Just thought I would offer the OP an alternative viewpoint, apologies if it was interpreted as derrailing the thread subject, or offering a superior view - it wasn't meant like that. :flowerforyou:
Also, for some reason when I read the OP I didn't catch that he is male, so my examples of the me / women in my gym lifting heavy but not getting big muscles isn't terribly relevant.
OP obviously you would get bigger muscles than I would from heavy lifting, but if you end up with the "problem" of starting to get bigger than you'd like, you can always cut back.
Just for clarity's sake, when lifting heavy, eg 3x5 compound lifts, you don't get much bigger. There is a slight hypertrophy element but it mainly neuromuscular adaptations and you don't gain all that much muscle volume but mostly increase strength. If you decrease weight to 70% or 75% of 1RM and push reps to 8 -12 you get hypertrophy and muscles get bigger. I have recently added in a hypertrophy element because after 8 months of heavy lifting, I was seeing strength progression but not very muscle lean muscle gain after some initially.0 -
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