Over weight people bulking out of obesity
fraser112
Posts: 405
So i was thinking about muscle building and fat loss and got to wondering.
Since you can only build a small amount of muscle on a deficit. Plus weight loss is a very slow process and alot of obese people struggle to loose weight and eat at a surplus anyway which is the reason probably 95% of people are obese in the first place.
Would it not make more sense for an obese person to clean bulk first/recomp and try to gain as much muscle as possible for a year or two before they try to loose weight? If you could gain 18 or so kg of muscle without putting on much fat not only would your body fat composition improve but if you chose to get to a lower body fat:
it would be quicker for one
you would have a lower chance of loose skin.
your bmr would be higher since you are carrying more weight
you get to eat more so you would stick to it more
Plus you would look better when you dropped your body fat
The only people who it would not be a good idea for is the very obese but they can gain muscle while cutting anyway.
Am i dreaming or does it make sense for the majority of people to bulk out of obesity ?
Since you can only build a small amount of muscle on a deficit. Plus weight loss is a very slow process and alot of obese people struggle to loose weight and eat at a surplus anyway which is the reason probably 95% of people are obese in the first place.
Would it not make more sense for an obese person to clean bulk first/recomp and try to gain as much muscle as possible for a year or two before they try to loose weight? If you could gain 18 or so kg of muscle without putting on much fat not only would your body fat composition improve but if you chose to get to a lower body fat:
it would be quicker for one
you would have a lower chance of loose skin.
your bmr would be higher since you are carrying more weight
you get to eat more so you would stick to it more
Plus you would look better when you dropped your body fat
The only people who it would not be a good idea for is the very obese but they can gain muscle while cutting anyway.
Am i dreaming or does it make sense for the majority of people to bulk out of obesity ?
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Replies
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Why would it be quicker?
If anything it would be slower.0 -
Welll if your aim is to stay at a healthy body composition long term i mean when you come to eat at a deficit you will have 12-18 kg less to loose. Since you have a higher lbm. Im just thinking it would be a more sustainable weight loss system for the majority of people.0
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If you are obese then you already have a good amount of muscle. I would cut down, then bulk.
Carrying a high amount of fat is not healthy. I would try to get that down ASAP before I thought about bulking0 -
I have gained considerable muscle on a slight deficit.
I think most peoples problem is when they begin they create too big a deficit which in turns leaves them hungry, losing muscle mass. You will then slow your metabolism down. What you should do is find your TDEE -20%, lift heavy weights and do little but intense cardio (if your aim is to gain muscle).
ETA: Even with a "clean bulk" you will still gain considerable fat with the muscle.0 -
If you are obese then you already have a good amount of muscle. I would cut down, then bulk.
Carrying a high amount of fat is not healthy. I would try to get that down ASAP before I thought about bulking
^^this.0 -
If you are obese then you already have a good amount of muscle. I would cut down, then bulk.
Carrying a high amount of fat is not healthy. I would try to get that down ASAP before I thought about bulking
yeah i know thats the standard way but to keep extra fat you have to eat extra so by just lifting weights you could lower your body fat % with only 2-3 hours a week of work. Cutting is seen as something hard because it goes against are nature if you know what i mean.0 -
If you are obese then you already have a good amount of muscle. I would cut down, then bulk.
Carrying a high amount of fat is not healthy. I would try to get that down ASAP before I thought about bulking
yeah i know thats the standard way but to keep extra fat you have to eat extra so by just lifting weights you could lower your body fat % with only 2-3 hours a week of work. Cutting is seen as something hard because it goes against are nature if you know what i mean.
Even if you reduce your body fat % b gaining muscle, as an obese person you still would be carrying around a dangerous amount of fat.
Why do you think it goes against nature?0 -
^^Seconded. You already have muscle- it takes quite a lot of muscle to move around and participate in everyday life when you're obese. Eat adequate protein and strength train to maintain as much of that muscle as possible as you cut, and you'll end up with a higher muscle mass at your goal weight than the average person who was never obese.If you are obese then you already have a good amount of muscle. I would cut down, then bulk.
Carrying a high amount of fat is not healthy. I would try to get that down ASAP before I thought about bulking
^^this.0 -
I started at 344 lbs 10 months ago, I weight trained and exercised and currently weigh 233 lbs. I wear clothing now that I last wore when I was 170 lbs many years ago... admittedly, they don't fit the same way they did then but it is the same size none-the-less. The last time I was 199, I was 2 sizes larger than I am in my pants. That being said, it is evidnet that I had some muscle gain on a deficit; of course as the OP said, I was grade III obese so I suppose that is partially how I did it. I think really some type of compromize is best in this situation; I agree that it is simply not healthy to maintain large amounts of body fat and that needs to come off as quickly as possible (within reason)... One thing I have always done during this venture is tried to have a surplus in the area of protein daily... that helped maintain my muscle mass IMHO.0
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^^Seconded. You already have muscle- it takes quite a lot of muscle to move around and participate in everyday life when you're obese. Eat adequate protein and strength train to maintain as much of that muscle as possible as you cut, and you'll end up with a higher muscle mass at your goal weight than the average person who was never obese.If you are obese then you already have a good amount of muscle. I would cut down, then bulk.
Carrying a high amount of fat is not healthy. I would try to get that down ASAP before I thought about bulking
^^this.
I love the fitnesspal timeline thing u got going made me laugh. no wonder when i get on 1 people next to me glance and speed up lol0 -
I have gained considerable muscle on a slight deficit.
I think most peoples problem is when they begin they create too big a deficit which in turns leaves them hungry, losing muscle mass. You will then slow your metabolism down. What you should do is find your TDEE -20%, lift heavy weights and do little but intense cardio (if your aim is to gain muscle).
ETA: Even with a "clean bulk" you will still gain considerable fat with the muscle.
You gained considerable muscle on a slight deficit? How much did you gain?0 -
If you are obese then you already have a good amount of muscle. I would cut down, then bulk.
Carrying a high amount of fat is not healthy. I would try to get that down ASAP before I thought about bulking
yeah i know thats the standard way but to keep extra fat you have to eat extra so by just lifting weights you could lower your body fat % with only 2-3 hours a week of work. Cutting is seen as something hard because it goes against are nature if you know what i mean.
Even if you reduce your body fat % b gaining muscle, as an obese person you still would be carrying around a dangerous amount of fat.
Why do you think it goes against nature?
Not nature our nature. Since more and more people are saying weight is genetic. Lots of people try to claim weight loss long term is not possible ect ect. Lifting weight would be an easy wayto improve your body comp without the struggle of dieting. I know its not the most efficent way but im thinking for the majority of people who will claim this and that does not work pure weight lifting might be a better route.0 -
This confuses me quite a bit.0
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I want to ask a question but I fear it well get me in trouble :ohwell:I have gained considerable muscle on a slight deficit.
I think most peoples problem is when they begin they create too big a deficit which in turns leaves them hungry, losing muscle mass. You will then slow your metabolism down. What you should do is find your TDEE -20%, lift heavy weights and do little but intense cardio (if your aim is to gain muscle).
ETA: Even with a "clean bulk" you will still gain considerable fat with the muscle.0 -
Here's my logic. Kinda goes along with the op, just slightly. If you eat to lose, lift to gain, and do cardio for your health, weight loss is alot easier than most people make it.0
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If you are obese then you already have a good amount of muscle. I would cut down, then bulk.
Carrying a high amount of fat is not healthy. I would try to get that down ASAP before I thought about bulking
yeah i know thats the standard way but to keep extra fat you have to eat extra so by just lifting weights you could lower your body fat % with only 2-3 hours a week of work. Cutting is seen as something hard because it goes against are nature if you know what i mean.
Even if you reduce your body fat % b gaining muscle, as an obese person you still would be carrying around a dangerous amount of fat.
Why do you think it goes against nature?
Not nature our nature. Since more and more people are saying weight is genetic. Lots of people try to claim weight loss long term is not possible ect ect. Lifting weight would be an easy weight to improve your body comp without the struggle of dieting. I know its not the most efficent way but im thinking for the majority of people who will claim this and that does not work pure weight lifting might be a better route.
I see. What I learnt from this thread: who gives a **** about peoples health if you can still eat as much as you want?0 -
If you are obese then you already have a good amount of muscle. I would cut down, then bulk.
Carrying a high amount of fat is not healthy. I would try to get that down ASAP before I thought about bulking
yeah i know thats the standard way but to keep extra fat you have to eat extra so by just lifting weights you could lower your body fat % with only 2-3 hours a week of work. Cutting is seen as something hard because it goes against are nature if you know what i mean.
Even if you reduce your body fat % b gaining muscle, as an obese person you still would be carrying around a dangerous amount of fat.
Why do you think it goes against nature?
Not nature our nature. Since more and more people are saying weight is genetic. Lots of people try to claim weight loss long term is not possible ect ect. Lifting weight would be an easy wayto improve your body comp without the struggle of dieting. I know its not the most efficent way but im thinking for the majority of people who will claim this and that does not work pure weight lifting might be a better route.
Weight is not genetic. That is only a very small factor, and I often see that as a big excuse
I do agree that improving body comp by lifting weights is a great idea. I have been lifting a few years myself! But I still think that dieting down while lifting weights is still the best option. A 500 calorie deficit each day, especially when obese and can consume a high number of calories, is not all that hard. Many people over complicate it, are over restrictive, and fail. Just a simple 500 cal deficit and weight loss is not too bad IMO
Like I mentioned before, getting rid of that extra fat ASAP is still top priority. With all the weight related diseases and risks possible it is just too important not to do.
Very interesting thought by the way!0 -
This confuses me quite a bit.
Im trying to think long term lol since weight really means nothing if you carry a higher muscle to fat ratio you will be in a better position long term.
Not to upset people but loosing fat is easy, its keeping it off that i hard. So say you gain the muscle over a few years say 2. You will be in a much better position long term to keep the weight off long term. So they say the majority of people regain the weight within 5 years. If you gain say 12-18kg of muscle on a small surplus or maint calories if your very over weight you will improve your body fat % and be in a healthier position than if you cut the fat and regained or never tried at all .
So what my proposing is this method of muscle gain first and worry about the fat loss later would be a better option for the majority of people0 -
If you are obese then you already have a good amount of muscle. I would cut down, then bulk.
Carrying a high amount of fat is not healthy. I would try to get that down ASAP before I thought about bulking
yeah i know thats the standard way but to keep extra fat you have to eat extra so by just lifting weights you could lower your body fat % with only 2-3 hours a week of work. Cutting is seen as something hard because it goes against are nature if you know what i mean.
Even if you reduce your body fat % b gaining muscle, as an obese person you still would be carrying around a dangerous amount of fat.
Why do you think it goes against nature?
Not nature our nature. Since more and more people are saying weight is genetic. Lots of people try to claim weight loss long term is not possible ect ect. Lifting weight would be an easy wayto improve your body comp without the struggle of dieting. I know its not the most efficent way but im thinking for the majority of people who will claim this and that does not work pure weight lifting might be a better route.
Woah....back up here. Lifting weight is GREAT for this process. By lifting (combined with adequate protein) you can get stronger and *maintain* most of your muscle mass while you're cutting. We're saying you don't need to bulk- the difference being eating above maintenance. You will get awesome recomp AND weight loss results by lifting weight and cutting at a reasonable deficit.
Edit for typo.0 -
[/quote]
Weight is not genetic. That is only a very small factor, and I often see that as a big excuse
I do agree that improving body comp by lifting weights is a great idea. I have been lifting a few years myself! But I still think that dieting down while lifting weights is still the best option. A 500 calorie deficit each day, especially when obese and can consume a high number of calories, is not all that hard. Many people over complicate it, are over restrictive, and fail. Just a simple 500 cal deficit and weight loss is not too bad IMO
Like I mentioned before, getting rid of that extra fat ASAP is still top priority. With all the weight related diseases and risks possible it is just too important not to do.
Very interesting thought by the way!
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thank you lol im glad you did not miss my point. Im not saying its ok for people to eat all they want, Im saying most people like it or not will eat what they want as shown by the rise in obesity. this method would help those weaker willed people atleast improve.0 -
[/quote]
Woah....back up here. Lifting weight is GREAT for this process. By lifting (combined with adequate protein) you can get stronger and *maintain* most of your muscle mass while you're cutting. We're saying you don't need to bulk- the difference being eating above maintenance. You will get awesome recomp AND weight loss results by lifting weight and cutting at a reasonable deficit.
Edit for typo.
[/quote]
Oh i agree weight lifting at any point in life is important im just putting it out that this might have a higher success rate than the current system.0 -
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I see. What I learnt from this thread: who gives a **** about peoples health if you can still eat as much as you want?
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You missed my point completly. Im saying if you gain the muscle first you are in a better position long term to keep the weight off and improve your health. its nice to picture everyone chowing on carrots and what ever else people see as healthy but its a fantasy to think most people have it in them to stick to this.0 -
It's only a slow process if you let it be that way. I lost 69lbs (31kg) in 8 months.... well 39 weeks. I was obese, now I'm healthy. It's only as fast as YOU make it.0
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I have gained considerable muscle on a slight deficit.
Were you juicing?0 -
I have gained considerable muscle on a slight deficit.
Were you juicing?
the very obese and new lifters can make gains on a deficit just not for long0 -
This confuses me quite a bit.
Im trying to think long term lol since weight really means nothing if you carry a higher muscle to fat ratio you will be in a better position long term.
Not to upset people but loosing fat is easy, its keeping it off that i hard. So say you gain the muscle over a few years say 2. You will be in a much better position long term to keep the weight off long term. So they say the majority of people regain the weight within 5 years. If you gain say 12-18kg of muscle on a small surplus or maint calories if your very over weight you will improve your body fat % and be in a healthier position than if you cut the fat and regained or never tried at all .
So what my proposing is this method of muscle gain first and worry about the fat loss later would be a better option for the majority of people
Muscle does not burn that much additional energy. The maximum I believe is 9 calories per lb of muscle. That really is not that much and at the end of the day, people will still need to lose weight to healthy. Obese people have a higher LBM anyway, and resistance training and adequate protein will preserve as much of this as possible.0 -
I have gained considerable muscle on a slight deficit.
Were you juicing?
the very obese and new lifters can make gains on a deficit just not for long
New lifter gains are only about 1 - 2lb.0 -
I have gained considerable muscle on a slight deficit.
Were you juicing?
the very obese and new lifters can make gains on a deficit just not for long
How many pounds of muscle can a woman typically gain under those conditions? I highly doubt it's much if any if fact. Even for men, building new muscle is a slow and difficult process.0 -
I have gained considerable muscle on a slight deficit.
I think most peoples problem is when they begin they create too big a deficit which in turns leaves them hungry, losing muscle mass. You will then slow your metabolism down. What you should do is find your TDEE -20%, lift heavy weights and do little but intense cardio (if your aim is to gain muscle).
ETA: Even with a "clean bulk" you will still gain considerable fat with the muscle.
You gained considerable muscle on a slight deficit? How much did you gain?
Yes, do tell. Also, what the hell is a "clean bulk"? Is that one of those things where people add a word to another word and it magically becomes 78% better? Is there a "dirty bulk"?0 -
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Muscle does not burn that much additional energy. The maximum I believe is 9 calories per lb of muscle. That really is not that much and at the end of the day, people will still need to lose weight to healthy. Obese people have a higher LBM anyway, and resistance training and adequate protein will preserve as much of this as possible.
[/quote]
Well my idea goes just now
Normal system Obese > Lift to gain as the poster pointed out 1-2 pounds of muscle while cutting > Get slim > Bulk gain muscle plus fat > cut > repeat
What im saying is
Lift to gain muscle > Weight goes up or stays the same but lmb increases. > so for me my lbm could go from 80kg to 92 kg in a year so just from the small addition of weight lifting the majority of people have improved their body fat % already > Then after a year i just need to cut a small chunk off of my calories and i have
20-25 pounds less fat to cut
a higher bmr just from the extra weight not the muscle being active in the body
A higher calorie burn when i do cardio since i weight 20-25 pounds more
a better body under the fat
less chance of loose skin ect
I hope someone gets what im getting at here. :laugh: Im trying to say in the long term weight lifting first has a large amount of perks in the long term which with weight loss is all that really matters.0
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