Over weight people bulking out of obesity
Replies
-
I have gained considerable muscle on a slight deficit.
I think most peoples problem is when they begin they create too big a deficit which in turns leaves them hungry, losing muscle mass. You will then slow your metabolism down. What you should do is find your TDEE -20%, lift heavy weights and do little but intense cardio (if your aim is to gain muscle).
ETA: Even with a "clean bulk" you will still gain considerable fat with the muscle.
You gained considerable muscle on a slight deficit? How much did you gain?
Yes, do tell. Also, what the hell is a "clean bulk"? Is that one of those things where people add a word to another word and it magically becomes 78% better? Is there a "dirty bulk"?
I see it get mostly used when you eat just above main so about 300-500 cals instead of the old school eat like an obese sumo wrestler when bulking and eat only tuna on a cut.0 -
Sorry, but suggesting that an already obese person bulks makes no sense from a health perspective.0
-
Muscle does not burn that much additional energy. The maximum I believe is 9 calories per lb of muscle. That really is not that much and at the end of the day, people will still need to lose weight to healthy. Obese people have a higher LBM anyway, and resistance training and adequate protein will preserve as much of this as possible.
Well my idea goes just now
Normal system Obese > Lift to gain as the poster pointed out 1-2 pounds of muscle while cutting > Get slim > Bulk gain muscle plus fat > cut > repeat
What im saying is
Lift to gain muscle > Weight goes up or stays the same but lmb increases. > so for me my lbm could go from 80kg to 92 kg in a year so just from the small addition of weight lifting the majority of people have improved their body fat % already > Then after a year i just need to cut a small chunk off of my calories and i have
20-25 pounds less fat to cut
a higher bmr just from the extra weight not the muscle being active in the body
A higher calorie burn when i do cardio since i weight 20-25 pounds more
a better body under the fat
less chance of loose skin ect
I hope someone gets what im getting at here. :laugh: Im trying to say in the long term weight lifting first has a large amount of perks in the long term which with weight loss is all that really matters.
When you bulk, you do not just gain muscle, you gain fat also. So the math and logic is escaping me here.
(fixed the quotes)0 -
ok bulk was the wrong word but only focus on weight lifting to begin with.Sorry, but suggesting that an already obese person bulks makes no sense from a health perspective.0 -
So i was thinking about muscle building and fat loss and got to wondering.
Since you can only build a small amount of muscle on a deficit. Plus weight loss is a very slow process and alot of obese people struggle to loose weight and eat at a surplus anyway which is the reason probably 95% of people are obese in the first place.
Would it not make more sense for an obese person to clean bulk first/recomp and try to gain as much muscle as possible for a year or two before they try to loose weight? If you could gain 18 or so kg of muscle without putting on much fat not only would your body fat composition improve but if you chose to get to a lower body fat:
it would be quicker for one
you would have a lower chance of loose skin.
your bmr would be higher since you are carrying more weight
you get to eat more so you would stick to it more
Plus you would look better when you dropped your body fat
The only people who it would not be a good idea for is the very obese but they can gain muscle while cutting anyway.
Am i dreaming or does it make sense for the majority of people to bulk out of obesity ?
leaner bodies add more lean mass to fat mass ratio when in a caloric surplus... which is why its ideal to do leaner bulks rather than all out bulks... and to why to shed the weight as best as you can if you are obese before you try to add more muscle... the body will recomp while lifting weights and dieting but dont by any means do a clean bulk if you are way overweight.0 -
So i was thinking about muscle building and fat loss and got to wondering.
Since you can only build a small amount of muscle on a deficit. Plus weight loss is a very slow process and alot of obese people struggle to loose weight and eat at a surplus anyway which is the reason probably 95% of people are obese in the first place.
Would it not make more sense for an obese person to clean bulk first/recomp and try to gain as much muscle as possible for a year or two before they try to loose weight? If you could gain 18 or so kg of muscle without putting on much fat not only would your body fat composition improve but if you chose to get to a lower body fat:
it would be quicker for one
you would have a lower chance of loose skin.
your bmr would be higher since you are carrying more weight
you get to eat more so you would stick to it more
Plus you would look better when you dropped your body fat
The only people who it would not be a good idea for is the very obese but they can gain muscle while cutting anyway.
Am i dreaming or does it make sense for the majority of people to bulk out of obesity ?
leaner bodies add more lean mass to fat mass ratio when in a caloric surplus... which is why its ideal to do leaner bulks rather than all out bulks... and to why to shed the weight as best as you can if you are obese before you try to add more muscle... the body will recomp while lifting weights and dieting but dont by any means do a clean bulk if you are way overweight.
do you have a source on that ? I thought that only applied to the very lean and not people who had dieted down. I mean if the study was done on naturaly lean people it will not apply to those who have slimmed down. lyle mcdonald talks about it alot in his articals i think.0 -
ok bulk was the wrong word but only focus on weight lifting to begin with.Sorry, but suggesting that an already obese person bulks makes no sense from a health perspective.
I agree that they should weigh train, but they can generally maintain LBM while eating at a calorie deficit for a while. So, they lose fat, keep muscle, lose total body weight. I am not sure why what you are suggesting is better.0 -
LOL @ Dirty Bulk! I needed that after reading this thread!
0 -
ok bulk was the wrong word but only focus on weight lifting to begin with.Sorry, but suggesting that an already obese person bulks makes no sense from a health perspective.
I agree that they should weigh train, but they can generally maintain LBM while eating at a calorie deficit for a while. So, they lose fat, keep muscle, lose total body weight. I am not sure why what you are suggesting is better.
my idea kinda of goes around the idea if your over 15% body fat you can gain muscle at maint. so say your at 30% body fat and not gained in a while you just get them to be mindful of what they eat and lift weights. So you take all the hassle out of improving your body fat so those who say oh diets dont work ect could still improve so even if you gained muscle down to 17% body fat eating at maint your in a much better position than cutting down with the muscle you have now.
So you eat to keep your current weight and lift just making sure you progress. since you have extra fat you can make muscle gains so your in a way turning the fat you have into muscle. all you need is to up the protein intake and lift. I hope it makes sense haha0 -
So i was thinking about muscle building and fat loss and got to wondering.
Since you can only build a small amount of muscle on a deficit. Plus weight loss is a very slow process and alot of obese people struggle to loose weight and eat at a surplus anyway which is the reason probably 95% of people are obese in the first place.
Would it not make more sense for an obese person to clean bulk first/recomp and try to gain as much muscle as possible for a year or two before they try to loose weight? If you could gain 18 or so kg of muscle without putting on much fat not only would your body fat composition improve but if you chose to get to a lower body fat:
it would be quicker for one
you would have a lower chance of loose skin.
your bmr would be higher since you are carrying more weight
you get to eat more so you would stick to it more
Plus you would look better when you dropped your body fat
The only people who it would not be a good idea for is the very obese but they can gain muscle while cutting anyway.
Am i dreaming or does it make sense for the majority of people to bulk out of obesity ?
leaner bodies add more lean mass to fat mass ratio when in a caloric surplus... which is why its ideal to do leaner bulks rather than all out bulks... and to why to shed the weight as best as you can if you are obese before you try to add more muscle... the body will recomp while lifting weights and dieting but dont by any means do a clean bulk if you are way overweight.
do you have a source on that ? I thought that only applied to the very lean and not people who had dieted down. I mean if the study was done on naturaly lean people it will not apply to those who have slimmed down. lyle mcdonald talks about it alot in his articals i think.
well i have slimmed down from a fat 215... then clean bulked/cut, then dirty bulked/cut, now clean bulking again... so i find that it works better to do leaner bulks but i gained the most amount of muscle mass doing my dirty bulk...
i am also refering to the body fat range of 12-15% being leaner bulk and 15+ dirty bulk0 -
[/quote]
well i have slimmed down from a fat 215... then clean bulked/cut, then dirty bulked/cut, now clean bulking again... so i find that it works better to do leaner bulks but i gained the most amount of muscle mass doing my dirty bulk...
i am also refering to the body fat range of 12-15% being leaner bulk and 15+ dirty bulk
[/quote]
Thanks for the input, so you clean bulked to begin with? did you worry you would pack fat back on after the weight loss? What sort of intake did you have on the dirty bulk?0 -
ok bulk was the wrong word but only focus on weight lifting to begin with.Sorry, but suggesting that an already obese person bulks makes no sense from a health perspective.
I agree that they should weigh train, but they can generally maintain LBM while eating at a calorie deficit for a while. So, they lose fat, keep muscle, lose total body weight. I am not sure why what you are suggesting is better.
my idea kinda of goes around the idea if your over 15% body fat you can gain muscle at maint. so say your at 30% body fat and not gained in a while you just get them to be mindful of what they eat and lift weights. So you take all the hassle out of improving your body fat so those who say oh diets dont work ect could still improve so even if you gained muscle down to 17% body fat eating at maint your in a much better position than cutting down with the muscle you have now.
So you eat to keep your current weight and lift just making sure you progress. since you have extra fat you can make muscle gains so your in a way turning the fat you have into muscle. all you need is to up the protein intake and lift. I hope it makes sense haha
First of all, at 17% BF you will not be getting the 'benefits' of obese LBM maintenance - that is not obese. Secondly, as has been mentioned before, someone who is obese, already has a very high LBM. There is no reason to stay at maintenance to gain a pound of two of LBM - at 9 cals per lb (vs 3 cals per lb for fat) it is not worth it from a BMR perspective.0 -
I have gained considerable muscle on a slight deficit.
I think most peoples problem is when they begin they create too big a deficit which in turns leaves them hungry, losing muscle mass. You will then slow your metabolism down. What you should do is find your TDEE -20%, lift heavy weights and do little but intense cardio (if your aim is to gain muscle).
ETA: Even with a "clean bulk" you will still gain considerable fat with the muscle.
You gained considerable muscle on a slight deficit? How much did you gain?
Yes, do tell. Also, what the hell is a "clean bulk"? Is that one of those things where people add a word to another word and it magically becomes 78% better? Is there a "dirty bulk"?
I see it get mostly used when you eat just above main so about 300-500 cals instead of the old school eat like an obese sumo wrestler when bulking and eat only tuna on a cut.
A clean bulk means you eat healthy foods, giving your body the nutrients it requires. A dirty bulk means you can eat X amount of calories so they eat fast food every day.0 -
I'm confused. When you say 'bulk', do you mean lift??0
-
ok bulk was the wrong word but only focus on weight lifting to begin with.Sorry, but suggesting that an already obese person bulks makes no sense from a health perspective.
What if the person likes cardio? What if they're in a race or a competition? What if you guys realised that the heart is a MUSCLE as well?0 -
well i have slimmed down from a fat 215... then clean bulked/cut, then dirty bulked/cut, now clean bulking again... so i find that it works better to do leaner bulks but i gained the most amount of muscle mass doing my dirty bulk...
i am also refering to the body fat range of 12-15% being leaner bulk and 15+ dirty bulk
[/quote]
Thanks for the input, so you clean bulked to begin with? did you worry you would pack fat back on after the weight loss? What sort of intake did you have on the dirty bulk?
[/quote]
it was before i used MFP had no idea... just did "bro dieting" of complex carbs, lean meats, vegetables, healthy fats etc... and didnt care if i had a cheat meal once in a while i would just use the scale as a monitor...
and i was worried at first which is why i clean bulked... then i knew how to shed body fat really well after doing it twice and getting leaner the 2nd time than the first time so i tried to pack as much weight as i could because i now know how to lose it... and on the 2nd cut after dirty bulk is when i found MFP and used it well... and now i can track cals and macros i mine as well be efficient and do a clean bulk with monitored intake with max gains.0 -
@ Sarauk2sf
Yeah i get what your saying but since you can gain muscle and loose fat at the same time until your body fat drops below say 15- 17% body fat im saying anyone above that would be better off long term doing the recomp until they stop gaining muscleat which point say 15% body fat they are at a much healthier body fat with almost no dieting at all.
which since most people prefer the easy option this allows them to reach a healthy body fat with no real calorie restriction. It all relays on the redistribution of the energy your consuming.0 -
I'm confused. When you say 'bulk', do you mean lift??
well no i mean eating at or above maint i really should have said recomp0 -
@ Sarauk2sf
Yeah i get what your saying but since you can gain muscle and loose fat at the same time until your body fat drops below say 15- 17% body fat im saying anyone above that would be better off long term doing the recomp until they stop gaining muscleat which point say 15% body fat they are at a much healthier body fat with almost no dieting at all.
which since most people prefer the easy option this allows them to reach a healthy body fat with no real calorie restriction. It all relays on the redistribution of the energy your consuming.
Where are you getting this 15 - 17% from?0 -
@ Sarauk2sf
Yeah i get what your saying but since you can gain muscle and loose fat at the same time until your body fat drops below say 15- 17% body fat im saying anyone above that would be better off long term doing the recomp until they stop gaining muscleat which point say 15% body fat they are at a much healthier body fat with almost no dieting at all.
which since most people prefer the easy option this allows them to reach a healthy body fat with no real calorie restriction. It all relays on the redistribution of the energy your consuming.
How about you just eat right, restricting calories from your TDEE by only 20-30%, lift weights and do some cardio? It's not rocket science.0 -
ok bulk was the wrong word but only focus on weight lifting to begin with.Sorry, but suggesting that an already obese person bulks makes no sense from a health perspective.
What if the person likes cardio? What if they're in a race or a competition? What if you guys realised that the heart is a MUSCLE as well?
they can walk for cardio? lifting weights gives your heart a good jolt and im more aiming this at the majority of overweight people. If you have a fitness goal like a race you not be looking for the easy option that im putting foward.0 -
going back to what i said earlier... the body fat % are different for women lean bulk for men like 12%ish women maybe 16%? idk0
-
@ Sarauk2sf
Yeah i get what your saying but since you can gain muscle and loose fat at the same time until your body fat drops below say 15- 17% body fat im saying anyone above that would be better off long term doing the recomp until they stop gaining muscleat which point say 15% body fat they are at a much healthier body fat with almost no dieting at all.
which since most people prefer the easy option this allows them to reach a healthy body fat with no real calorie restriction. It all relays on the redistribution of the energy your consuming.
Where are you getting this 15 - 17% from?
Most of the stuff i read on body recomposition says thats the limit for gaining muscle and loosing fat0 -
@ Sarauk2sf
Yeah i get what your saying but since you can gain muscle and loose fat at the same time until your body fat drops below say 15- 17% body fat im saying anyone above that would be better off long term doing the recomp until they stop gaining muscleat which point say 15% body fat they are at a much healthier body fat with almost no dieting at all.
which since most people prefer the easy option this allows them to reach a healthy body fat with no real calorie restriction. It all relays on the redistribution of the energy your consuming.
How about you just eat right, restricting calories from your TDEE by only 20-30%, lift weights and do some cardio? It's not rocket science.
its not rocket science but it is to hard for alot of people which is why obesity is rising being obese is easier thats why so many do it.0 -
ok bulk was the wrong word but only focus on weight lifting to begin with.Sorry, but suggesting that an already obese person bulks makes no sense from a health perspective.
What if the person likes cardio? What if they're in a race or a competition? What if you guys realised that the heart is a MUSCLE as well?
they can walk for cardio? lifting weights gives your heart a good jolt and im more aiming this at the majority of overweight people. If you have a fitness goal like a race you not be looking for the easy option that im putting foward.
And why are so many people looking for an easy option?
Better yet, why are you bringing the easy option to MFP?
MFP supports a full lifestyle change for most people, not diets which people want to achieve overnight.
Yes, it may take a little bit of work but in the end it's worth it. How do you know what the MAJORITY of overweight people want?0 -
@ Sarauk2sf
Yeah i get what your saying but since you can gain muscle and loose fat at the same time until your body fat drops below say 15- 17% body fat im saying anyone above that would be better off long term doing the recomp until they stop gaining muscleat which point say 15% body fat they are at a much healthier body fat with almost no dieting at all.
which since most people prefer the easy option this allows them to reach a healthy body fat with no real calorie restriction. It all relays on the redistribution of the energy your consuming.
How about you just eat right, restricting calories from your TDEE by only 20-30%, lift weights and do some cardio? It's not rocket science.
its not rocket science but it is to hard for alot of people which is why obesity is rising being obese is easier thats why so many do it.
Why? Why is it hard?
It's not hard. If people really WANT a change they will do the work. If they don't want a change, they won't do the necessary work. Which is why so many diets exist - HCG, Atkins, etc, etc
Obesity is rising because people shove their faces full of food, (other than the 10% with actual medical conditions) people are busier so they are making faster options which are the foods which have 1000+ cals in a meal, and are more sedentary.0 -
the problem with lifting before fat loss is that you will obtain the Michael Clark Duncan look....which is fine if thats what you are aiming for but if you are going for Ryan Renolds in blade trinity then you have to lose the fat then bulk back up....thats just the way our bodies work!0
-
@ Sarauk2sf
Yeah i get what your saying but since you can gain muscle and loose fat at the same time until your body fat drops below say 15- 17% body fat im saying anyone above that would be better off long term doing the recomp until they stop gaining muscleat which point say 15% body fat they are at a much healthier body fat with almost no dieting at all.
which since most people prefer the easy option this allows them to reach a healthy body fat with no real calorie restriction. It all relays on the redistribution of the energy your consuming.
Where are you getting this 15 - 17% from?
Most of the stuff i read on body recomposition says thats the limit for gaining muscle and loosing fat
Please cite some of these as 15 - 17% is not obese and therefore at that BF% they will not be getting the gains that may be possible for an obese person.0 -
ok bulk was the wrong word but only focus on weight lifting to begin with.Sorry, but suggesting that an already obese person bulks makes no sense from a health perspective.
What if the person likes cardio? What if they're in a race or a competition? What if you guys realised that the heart is a MUSCLE as well?
they can walk for cardio? lifting weights gives your heart a good jolt and im more aiming this at the majority of overweight people. If you have a fitness goal like a race you not be looking for the easy option that im putting foward.
And why are so many people looking for an easy option?
Better yet, why are you bringing the easy option to MFP?
MFP supports a full lifestyle change for most people, not diets which people want to achieve overnight.
Yes, it may take a little bit of work but in the end it's worth it. How do you know what the MAJORITY of overweight people want?
il take the easy option any day...
why work harder when you can work smarter? knowledge is power and the more you know the more your body will work for you instead of you working for your body.0 -
@ Sarauk2sf
Yeah i get what your saying but since you can gain muscle and loose fat at the same time until your body fat drops below say 15- 17% body fat im saying anyone above that would be better off long term doing the recomp until they stop gaining muscleat which point say 15% body fat they are at a much healthier body fat with almost no dieting at all.
which since most people prefer the easy option this allows them to reach a healthy body fat with no real calorie restriction. It all relays on the redistribution of the energy your consuming.
Where are you getting this 15 - 17% from?
Most of the stuff i read on body recomposition says thats the limit for gaining muscle and loosing fat
Please cite some of these as 15 - 17% is not obese and therefore at that BF% they will not be getting the gains that may be possible for an obese person.
This ^
PS you can't possibly be saying that 17>%BF is obese for a woman... Our "healthy" range goes up to either 27 or 31 depending which one you look at.0
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.4K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.2K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.9K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 426 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.7K MyFitnessPal Information
- 24 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions