Stop the Low-Cal Insanity!
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How can a "binge" be blamed on deprivation? To binge is not some uncontrollable thing that you just can't physically stop yourself from doing, right?
It's not uncommon, especially if you've been undereating and are miserable, lethargic, and hungry for a while. Add stress from work or family life, and a lot of people end up just losing it. It happens to a lot of people. Some people have problems with self-control and food as well. Getting hungry makes it harder to take control of that. You might call it an excuse, but it happens and can be avoided by simply regularly eating well.0 -
A binge is uncontrolled by it's very nature. Psychological issues with certain foods are usually a trigger.How can a "binge" be blamed on deprivation? To binge is not some uncontrollable thing that you just can't physically stop yourself from doing, right? It's a decision....
^ This is very true. Nor, do they want you to explain it to them. I wonder if it's just because they're gullible(sp?) and happy to accept a standardised number (which btw, is a government-recommended bottom limit to meet other nutritional goals) or just because they're too lazy to do some research on their own bodies needs.I don't think people understand BMR and TDEE. That seems to be a trend I have noticed among the super low cal group.0 -
Oh, and someone asked who Steve is. That be me.
Hey man! Did I do a reasonably accurate job of paraphrasing you above?
Yes you did. You'll constantly see me saying things like 'form follows function.' If we create a body that's capable of high functioning... especially in the weight room... the appearance will follow suit. Of course it has to be paired with intelligent nutrition. But intelligent nutrition doesn't have to be nearly as rigid and complicated as people like to make it.
On the wall of my gym is the slogan, "Get Strong, Be Strong, Look Strong." I've trained many people... and many women... and the ones who truly embrace this concept tend to thrive psychologically and physically.0 -
OK, so someone help me understand this. I burn an average of 2400 calories/day according to my BodyMedia (that includes breathing all the way to exercising). My stats are 5'4, 219 pounds. According to the Withings scale I have 44% body fat.
MFP recommends me to eat 1200 calories, but then adds to it after my BodyMedia sends "adjustments". Unfortunately it does this after I sync them, which is only once a week so I need a general rule.
If I have access to the number of calories I burn/day is it safe to say I need to eat 1000 calories less than that to loose 2 pounds a week? Meaning I need to be eating closer to 1400 and not 1200?
Also, do I need to eat grams of fat based on my LBM or my goal weight? My LBM is 120 but I don't want to get under 150.0 -
I don't believe that when it comes to BMR, TDEE and the amount of calories one needs to eat to maintain or lose weight is any different for those with PCOS, thyroid issues or even diabetes. I am diabetic2, have always had symptoms of PCOS and thyroid issues. It has taken me years and years to figure out why I could not lose weight and gained easily. I am convinced it was not the number of calories (as long as I was eating a deficit from TDEE) but rather the kinds of food I ate. I know now that the percentage of carbs in my diet must be low. I also now know that dairy or any food shot full of hormones must be eliminated from my diet.( I am careful about where I buy my meat. I shop where I know the meat is hormone and steroid free.) Soy products are off my menu as soy messes with hormones and thyroid.Excellent post OP!!
What never ceases to amaze me is how a common sense post like this based on good information will bring so many people doing VLCDs out of the woodwork to rationalize and justify thier choices. To some degree, the less you eat and the longer you eat that way, you are condemning yourself to eat that way likely for the rest of your life. The metabolic adaptations and downregulation can be fairly permanent short of gaining all the weight back and starting all over again the right way.
And we are not "all different" so much. With the exception of those with some kind of heath condition like PCOS or a thryroid issue, we are much more alike than different with some minor variation from individual to individual.
My target daily calorie intake is almost 1600. Some days I am over. Some days I am under. It can be a challenge sometimes to eat enough calories when you eat low carb and no dairy. I'm learning.0 -
I'm just wondering how a 200 pound woman with a goal weight of 140 pounds would have 140 pounds of LBM. :laugh:
Sorry, I have been tripping on my LBM lately. I want 140 pounds of LBM! :smokin:
Great post, OP. :flowerforyou:0 -
How can a "binge" be blamed on deprivation? To binge is not some uncontrollable thing that you just can't physically stop yourself from doing, right? It's a decision....
The reason for making such a decision is often deprivation.0 -
If I have access to the number of calories I burn/day is it safe to say I need to eat 1000 calories less than that to loose 2 pounds a week? Meaning I need to be eating closer to 1400 and not 1200?
Yes.0 -
Did you read her profile?You do know that 1200 cal is not a high calorie diet, right?
It is a real bare minimum at best. Under that then you can cause yourself problems, and, no offense, if you are here to lose weight then you must have been able to eat over that at some point in your recent past.
After your post I did - She is looking to loose 4.5kg and says "I'm not too fat, but I want to get fit and healthy! "
One of the issues is perhaps that it's easier to accept that as you get closer to your goal you need to slow down the weight loss a bit - fine if you've seen big changes from losing 50, 100 or 200 lb. But if you've only got a little to lose when you start it can be harder to accept/realise it's not as easy as all those talking about 4lb a week with a few changes to the diet.
(Edit - bit late post now, didn't click 'Post Reply' before I went out.)0 -
Before joining this site,I was reading on a post about whether "starvation mode" is a myth. I am supposed to be eating 1200 calories a day... This is for me to lose weight (I am currently 5"1 and 78kgs and my healthy weight is 60kgs) Just so you know I am stocky as I have been weight training for over 10 years. I also train in martial arts and have done for 16 years. I have always had weight issues but, have never been a big eater and I was at my peak fitness. Over time my training had reduced (teaching, running a school then 1 knee reconstruction and 1 pending) so did my diet. I now average 700 calories a day. 71g protein, 25g fat, 49g carbs, 22g sugars and 700g sodium.. All of these are under the recommended dietary needs except for protein. My doctor blames "starvation mode" for my weight gain. she will not listen that I didn't eat much more than this when I was training 3 times a day. Body wise I am healthy hair, teeth, skin and I still have muscle mass. Just the tyre around my middle and big hips are my main issue.. I have alot of energy to burn.. My problem is the inability to train as much as I used to... When I do eat more than 1200 I gain weight rapidly. I feel so defeated as I can't exercise as much as I want to.. I have cut out all take aways fizzy drinks and sugars etc. Low carb and high protein diet.. What else can I do??0
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Before joining this site,I was reading on a post about whether "starvation mode" is a myth. I am supposed to be eating 1200 calories a day... This is for me to lose weight (I am currently 5"1 and 78kgs and my healthy weight is 60kgs) Just so you know I am stocky as I have been weight training for over 10 years. I also train in martial arts and have done for 16 years. I have always had weight issues but, have never been a big eater and I was at my peak fitness. Over time my training had reduced (teaching, running a school then 1 knee reconstruction and 1 pending) so did my diet. I now average 700 calories a day. 71g protein, 25g fat, 49g carbs, 22g sugars and 700g sodium.. All of these are under the recommended dietary needs except for protein. My doctor blames "starvation mode" for my weight gain. she will not listen that I didn't eat much more than this when I was training 3 times a day. Body wise I am healthy hair, teeth, skin and I still have muscle mass. Just the tyre around my middle and big hips are my main issue.. I have alot of energy to burn.. My problem is the inability to train as much as I used to... When I do eat more than 1200 I gain weight rapidly. I feel so defeated as I can't exercise as much as I want to.. I have cut out all take aways fizzy drinks and sugars etc. Low carb and high protein diet.. What else can I do??
get a new Dr. the one you have doesn't understand what starvation mode is, because if she did, she'd have admitted you for emergency care. starvation mode is what happened at Auschwitz. you're not in starvation mode if you have a spare tire. now, you might have a medical condition that is messing with your metabolism, or your metabolism may be screwed up from years of under-eating. these are not things i have any experience with and cannot talk about with any expertise. find a new Dr. and let them do some tests to see if there is an underlying condition that you don't know about.0 -
A binge is uncontrolled by it's very nature. Psychological issues with certain foods are usually a trigger.How can a "binge" be blamed on deprivation? To binge is not some uncontrollable thing that you just can't physically stop yourself from doing, right? It's a decision....
^ This is very true. Nor, do they want you to explain it to them. I wonder if it's just because they're gullible(sp?) and happy to accept a standardised number (which btw, is a government-recommended bottom limit to meet other nutritional goals) or just because they're too lazy to do some research on their own bodies needs.I don't think people understand BMR and TDEE. That seems to be a trend I have noticed among the super low cal group.
If so and it was a true binge, then that person has bigger problems than just low calories.
And also, it SEEMS like everyone that has dropped their caloric intake and has negative impacts from it automatically assumes it is low calories. But couldn't it be something else? Such as withdrawals from say, sugar, maybe even caffeine? Or maybe even something else missing from their diets? Isn't there vitamins and minerals that can cause mood swings and affect energy levels? A good multivitamin could replace these right?0 -
No sale. It's my body, and it is my responsibility to keep it at a healthy weight. I'll eat at the calorie level I need to achieve this, and what you think of it means diddly squat to me.0
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Would be helpful if I knew how to delete posts lol0
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bump to read later!0
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The "we are all different" speech is made because our BMRs can differ drastically between 2 people. A 25 yo woman who is 5'3" and weighs 155 pounds and has only 10% body fat, because she is a powerlifter and spends hours a day in the gym, will have a BMR that is quite different from a 50 yo woman, same height and weight, but is sedentary and has a 60% BF. And it will be several hundreds of calories difference, not simply 2 or 3%. The powerlifter may need 3000 cals per day to retain and build her muscle mass, whereas the other woman may maintain on only 1500 cals per day. If she wants to lose 1 pound per week, she would need to consume 500 less calories per day, putting her at 1000 cals. Of course she could go to the gym every day for a couple of hours and burn 500 calories, but she would still need to eat at only 1500 cals a day to lose 1 pound per week. She might decide that eating less is a better option for her, due to time restraints, and medical issues.
You're sort of blending two concepts together... those being BMR and TDEE.
But your point remains... BMR can vary quite a bit across populations of matched age, height, and weight. The variance can be as much as 15% +/- the average. So from highest to lowest you might see a 30% variance, which is pretty substantial.
Thank you.
My understanding of BMR is what rate your body maintains its current weight, without added exercise. Having a higher muscle mass, increases your BMR even before you add in exercise, and having a higher BF% will decrease your BMR. If you use an incorrect BMR number to figure your TDEE, it can increase your TDEE even more.
A 10% difference in BMR would equate to a 15% difference in TDEE if you figure 1.5 as your activity level. For those who simply follow the recommended calorie level to lose one pound that is given to them by MFP, then eat back all their exercise calories as they are instructed to do, can easily end up gaining weight if they are not careful.
Take someone who signs up for MFP and enters their info.
A 40 yo woman, 5'3" and weighing 200 pounds. She wants to lose 80 pounds to get to a healthy 120. MFP asks what rate she wants to lose at, and how much she will be exercising per day. She enters 2 pounds per week, because she has 80 pounds to lose and doesn't want to wait four years to lose it. She figures she could exercise 30 minutes per day for 7 days a week. Sounds reasonable.
MFP figures her BMR at 1546. They add in 300 calories for a 30 minute workout, so that puts her at 1846 per day to maintain. To lose 2 pounds per week, she would need to cut out 1000 calories per day. That leaves her at 846 calories. MFP will not suggest less than 1200, so her calorie goal is set at 1200. She thinks that if she eats this much, she will lose 2 pounds per week, because that is what she entered in her information.
She loses weight the first week and is so happy, then the next week she slows down. Week 3 and she loses nothing, because her body is adjusting to the water weight she lost the first week. She goes on the boards for help and she is told that she needs to 'eat back' her exercise calories. So she gets on her bike or her treadmill for 30 minutes and MFP tells her that she earned 300 calories in exercise, so she eats 1500 calories that day. This continues for a week and she still sees no weight loss. She ups her exercise to 60 minutes and she 'earns' 600 calories so she eats 1800 cals that day. She does this for a week and maybe loses 1/4 of a pound. She goes back to the boards, tells everyone that she is eating 1200 a day plus burning 600 a day in exercise, and suddenly she has a slew of arguing people telling her "you need to eat more" "you need to eat less" "you need to stop the cardio and lift weights" "I would DIE if I only ate 1200 a day!" "your brain will stop functioning if you net below your BMR", you get the point.
This woman is eating 1800 cals per day, and is working out for an hour a day, every day, and is not losing anywhere near the 2 pounds she is wanting to lose. WHY?
This is why- Because since she is over 50% BF, her BMR is actually only around 1350, instead of the 1550 MFP figured it at. And when she walks or rides her bike for an hour, she is only burning around 300 calories instead of 600 that MFP gives her in extra calories. So this puts her MAINTENANCE level around 1920 (1350X1.2+300) if she is fairly sedentary other than the exercise she does. So if she is eating 1800 cals per day, she is only at a 120 calorie deficit per day. Factor in a 10% under estimation of actual calories eaten, which is fairly typical, and she is now actually eating 60 calories more than she is burning.
To lose 2 pounds per week, she has to stay at the same exercise level, but only eat around 920 calories per day. (not widely recommended for long term, but doable and supported by many physicians when the patient is that much overweight)
Or she could eat 1400 calories per day and increase her intensity or duration of exercise to burn an additional 500 calories a day.
Or she could eat 1400 calories, stay at exercising an hour a day, and change her expectations to only lose 1 pound per week and accept that it will take her 80 weeks to reach her goal.
She could also add strength training to increase her LBM, so that her BMR would increase, but she has to understand how slowly muscle actually grows.
Bottom line is she needs accurate information to have reasonable expectations. And she must look at her progress to see what is working or not working for her, and at what level of dedication she is willing to work at. I am not saying that people choosing to lose 1/2 pound per week so they can eat more, are not dedicated. they just have different expectations and goals.
She may decide that 900 per day is ok for her. If she makes healthy choices and gets a good amount of protein in, she can do that without losing a whole lot of muscle mass. At 80 pounds overweight, she would need more muscles to carry her weight around than she would need at 120, so it is ok for her to lose a moderate amount of muscle along with the fat. As she gets closer to her goal weight, she will need to have less of a calorie deficit as her available stored body fat decreases. At a lighter weight, she will be able to exercise at a higher intensity to make up the difference.
Of course these numbers sound crazy for a 30 yo male bodybuilder, or even another 40 yo female who is a serious athlete with a lower BF%, but the facts and experience support them for many women in THIS situation.
And the woman is not going to necessarily gain all of her weight back once she loses it. Ideally she will have learned a lot of good healthy eating and exercise habits and when she reaches her goal weight, have figured out a good maintenance level that she can stay at for life. It CAN and HAS been done by many people.
On the other hand, I have seen many men who were into serious bodybuilding and other athletic activities who ate 3000-5000 cals per day and didn't gain weight. But then life events happened where they couldn't exercise like that anymore, but continued to eat like they were accustomed to eating, they gained a LOT of weight. Have you been to a HS class reunion and seen the football players?
Someone who is comfortable eating at 1200-1400 per day while losing, can adjust their calorie levels when needed much more easily when they get to maintenance, than someone used to eating a lot more when they suddenly lose their 1000+ calorie burns.0 -
Before joining this site,I was reading on a post about whether "starvation mode" is a myth. I am supposed to be eating 1200 calories a day... This is for me to lose weight (I am currently 5"1 and 78kgs and my healthy weight is 60kgs) Just so you know I am stocky as I have been weight training for over 10 years. I also train in martial arts and have done for 16 years. I have always had weight issues but, have never been a big eater and I was at my peak fitness. Over time my training had reduced (teaching, running a school then 1 knee reconstruction and 1 pending) so did my diet. I now average 700 calories a day. 71g protein, 25g fat, 49g carbs, 22g sugars and 700g sodium.. All of these are under the recommended dietary needs except for protein. My doctor blames "starvation mode" for my weight gain. she will not listen that I didn't eat much more than this when I was training 3 times a day. Body wise I am healthy hair, teeth, skin and I still have muscle mass. Just the tyre around my middle and big hips are my main issue.. I have alot of energy to burn.. My problem is the inability to train as much as I used to... When I do eat more than 1200 I gain weight rapidly. I feel so defeated as I can't exercise as much as I want to.. I have cut out all take aways fizzy drinks and sugars etc. Low carb and high protein diet.. What else can I do??
get a new Dr. the one you have doesn't understand what starvation mode is, because if she did, she'd have admitted you for emergency care. starvation mode is what happened at Auschwitz. you're not in starvation mode if you have a spare tire. now, you might have a medical condition that is messing with your metabolism, or your metabolism may be screwed up from years of under-eating. these are not things i have any experience with and cannot talk about with any expertise. find a new Dr. and let them do some tests to see if there is an underlying condition that you don't know about.
Totally agree with you!!! I dont think I am starving myself at all. Last time I was there I had a complete blood work done .. Checked for thyroid issues, Diabetes, anything that can affect my weight gain... Nothing, I'm quite healthy. Prior to my last ACL tear I was eating the same and training 3-4 days at the gym, granted more weight training rather than cardio, however I was starting to see differences. Ive been out of action now for 2 months now and feel the weight just stacking on.0 -
The "we are all different" speech is made because our BMRs can differ drastically between 2 people. A 25 yo woman who is 5'3" and weighs 155 pounds and has only 10% body fat, because she is a powerlifter and spends hours a day in the gym, will have a BMR that is quite different from a 50 yo woman, same height and weight, but is sedentary and has a 60% BF. And it will be several hundreds of calories difference, not simply 2 or 3%. The powerlifter may need 3000 cals per day to retain and build her muscle mass, whereas the other woman may maintain on only 1500 cals per day. If she wants to lose 1 pound per week, she would need to consume 500 less calories per day, putting her at 1000 cals. Of course she could go to the gym every day for a couple of hours and burn 500 calories, but she would still need to eat at only 1500 cals a day to lose 1 pound per week. She might decide that eating less is a better option for her, due to time restraints, and medical issues.
60% BF is in the area where none of the BMR formulas work. that's extremely obese.
so that's not a a good example to prove your point.
however, using the Katch-MacArdle equation shows that for most people, the BMR numbers are pretty close.
155lb woman.
10% BF --> 1739
20% BF --> 1587
30% BF --> 1435
that's +/- 9% from the 20% BF number
But according to your numbers above, the difference is over 300 between 10% and 30%. Factor in 1.5 for TDEE and it equals a 450 calorie per day difference. Thus 1200 cals vs 1650 cals for the same results. That is an almost 40% difference in calorie levels. This is my point as to why what works for one person may not work for the next person. Same age, height, weight.0 -
Indeed, it may not be the low calories itself, but a lack of nutrition. Multivitamins can only do so much.
A binge is uncontrolled by it's very nature. Psychological issues with certain foods are usually a trigger.How can a "binge" be blamed on deprivation? To binge is not some uncontrollable thing that you just can't physically stop yourself from doing, right? It's a decision....
^ This is very true. Nor, do they want you to explain it to them. I wonder if it's just because they're gullible(sp?) and happy to accept a standardised number (which btw, is a government-recommended bottom limit to meet other nutritional goals) or just because they're too lazy to do some research on their own bodies needs.I don't think people understand BMR and TDEE. That seems to be a trend I have noticed among the super low cal group.
If so and it was a true binge, then that person has bigger problems than just low calories.
And also, it SEEMS like everyone that has dropped their caloric intake and has negative impacts from it automatically assumes it is low calories. But couldn't it be something else? Such as withdrawals from say, sugar, maybe even caffeine? Or maybe even something else missing from their diets? Isn't there vitamins and minerals that can cause mood swings and affect energy levels? A good multivitamin could replace these right?0 -
I tried the Eat More thing for a year and a half and never lost a pound, I gained 15lbs by the end of the year and half and my clothes were tight, I was going to have to go buy bigger clothes. I went as high as 1900 cals a day. I went to a personal trainer and she gave me the same advice, 'to eat more' she couldnt figure out why I wasnt losing. I quit that and went to my doctor. She did all the usual tests and nothing was medically wrong with me. My Dr then suggested I lower my cals to around 1200-1300 a day and lo and behold I have been steadily losing ever since. My maintenance level is around 1500 cals a day. So it does not work for everyone. Believe me, I would eat more if I could, but clearly I gain weight and inches.0
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