is low fat dieting that good for you...

SideSteel

So, if 1 gram of fat is 9 calories and 1 gram of protein is 4 calories and 1 gram of carbs is 4 calories. I really don't want to eat more fat calories because it is more than double a gram of protein or a gram of carbs. Again, if you are in a state of ketosis, this model doesn't apply. However, if you are not in ketosis, you have to watch your calorie intake.

Look, the world cancer association came out with recommendations that if you want to avoid certain types of cancer, it is recommended that you be in the lower range of your BMI. So, I don't care how you do it, eat fat, protein whatever, but if you are not in ketosis, you have to watch your calories, and fat, is just too costly per gram.

I'm just curious, why do you believe you do not have to watch your calorie intake during ketogenic dieting?

neanderthin

So, if 1 gram of fat is 9 calories and 1 gram of protein is 4 calories and 1 gram of carbs is 4 calories. I really don't want to eat more fat calories because it is more than double a gram of protein or a gram of carbs. Again, if you are in a state of ketosis, this model doesn't apply. However, if you are not in ketosis, you have to watch your calorie intake.

Look, the world cancer association came out with recommendations that if you want to avoid certain types of cancer, it is recommended that you be in the lower range of your BMI. So, I don't care how you do it, eat fat, protein whatever, but if you are not in ketosis, you have to watch your calories, and fat, is just too costly per gram.

I'm just curious, why do you believe you do not have to watch your calorie intake during ketogenic dieting?

That's easy, because fat doesn't make you fat and protein doesn't get stored. lol It's amazing that the satiating effect of low carb dieting for some people gets confused with energy balance.....I would imagine it's never going to make sense to some.

SideSteel

So, if 1 gram of fat is 9 calories and 1 gram of protein is 4 calories and 1 gram of carbs is 4 calories. I really don't want to eat more fat calories because it is more than double a gram of protein or a gram of carbs. Again, if you are in a state of ketosis, this model doesn't apply. However, if you are not in ketosis, you have to watch your calorie intake.

Look, the world cancer association came out with recommendations that if you want to avoid certain types of cancer, it is recommended that you be in the lower range of your BMI. So, I don't care how you do it, eat fat, protein whatever, but if you are not in ketosis, you have to watch your calories, and fat, is just too costly per gram.

I'm just curious, why do you believe you do not have to watch your calorie intake during ketogenic dieting?

That's easy, because fat doesn't make you fat and protein doesn't get stored. lol

You know darn well someone is going to come in here and agree with that. LOL

It's amazing that the satiating effect of low carb dieting for some people gets confused with energy balance.....I would imagine it's never going to make sense to some.

Agreed.

Ral263

Now that I know you are a vegetarian, I am really curious where you are getting your fats. At 2000 calories a day and 530 of them are fat calories, that's about 37% fat from calories. Being a starch based dieter myself, it's hard to go to that high in fats, unless you are eating nuts, avocados, guava, honey.

As for my last sentence, I fathom it was difficult for a meat eater, generally speaking, to consume so little fat. But now that you say you are a vegetarian, the opposite is happening. Where are you getting your fats from?

As far as your 'balanced dieting' is concerned, that is fine. I still stand by my idea that low fat is still an excellent way to diet.

Since when are guava and honey fat sources?

taem

So, if 1 gram of fat is 9 calories and 1 gram of protein is 4 calories and 1 gram of carbs is 4 calories. I really don't want to eat more fat calories because it is more than double a gram of protein or a gram of carbs. Again, if you are in a state of ketosis, this model doesn't apply. However, if you are not in ketosis, you have to watch your calorie intake.

Look, the world cancer association came out with recommendations that if you want to avoid certain types of cancer, it is recommended that you be in the lower range of your BMI. So, I don't care how you do it, eat fat, protein whatever, but if you are not in ketosis, you have to watch your calories, and fat, is just too costly per gram.

I'm just curious, why do you believe you do not have to watch your calorie intake during ketogenic dieting?

Dr. Atkins promotes his ketogenic diet as an all you can eat fat and protein but limit your carb deal. If you understand ketosis, your body uses the fat, which is caloricially much higher than carbs or proteins.

So, a low fat diet and a low carb diet actually mean the same in the way that you can eat as much as you want just as long as you don't mix carbs and fats together. Why? because of ketosis. Once you follow that rule, you can eat as much as your stomach can hold.

For vegetarians/vegans, eating 500 calories worth of veggies will fill your stomach, and there is very little fat in those veggies.
For Atkins/Paleo dieters, eating 500+ calories worth of fats and meats will fill your stomach and there is little consequence because they are under ketosis.

Never the two shall meet. Eating a "balance," to me, means you are exercising, raising your metabolism and watching calories because you are not under ketosis, thus 1 gram of fat really means 9 calories.

I choose not to follow the Atkins Paleo diet because most meats and dairy are full of things that can hurt you. Whereas with starchy foods, I do have to wash them carefully.

Cranktastic

Low fat dieting is excellent.

You will find people here, meaning on this forum, that are on a low carb diet, so they will say fat is good for you.

For the sake of argument, I am going to call them Atkin's type dieter or Paleo (high fat, high protein, low carb), the new Atkin's diet is lower fat, higher protein and still low carb.

low fat dieters (myself and other vegetarians and vegans) will argue that essential fat found in plants are good for you but animal fat is not (saturated, trans, and there is a new man-made fat now which I don't remember the name right now).

No one will argue that there are essential fats and they are needed. Essential because our bodies do not produce them and we need to eat them.

The argument is where are these essential fats found. I have learned that they are found only in plants, some will argue otherwise, but we can agree to disagree.

For me, low-fat dieting is really the way to go, unless you do not mind being in a state of ketosis all the time, then you can eat high fats, high protein.

Explain to me why saturated fat is bad.

I would like to know also as there are a lot of saturated fatty acids that are actually beneficial such as stearic acid which occurs in animal fats and milk. Stearic acid has been shown to lower LDL and to be HDL neutral.

Not to mention the effect of a low fat diet on particle sizes of LDL lipoproteins.......basically a low fat diet reduces the size of the particles, hence the reduction in total cholesterol, but smaller particles are also more atherogenic. Also a low fat diet (higher carb diet) has a pretty negative effect on HDL, it lowers it, and despite lower cholesterol numbers if peoples HDL isn't at a decent number no lower effect of LDL is going to help, which has been confirmed by more recent studies that really only confirms what we already knew 30 years ago which is, it's not Total Cholesterol that should be worrisome, but the relationship of HDL/LDL and of course CRP, Lp{a}, trigs in the blood yada, yada.

Why is saturated fat bad? I never said saturated fat is bad. I said low fat dieting is excellent. Listen up.

You insinuated that it was bad. Chill....

We all must understand that after your body receives enough calories (this depends on various factors such as your metabolism for example) any excessive amounts of calories leads to being overweight, or weight gain. I am hinting at the law of thermodynamics.

I think we can all agree on this.

So, if 1 gram of fat is 9 calories and 1 gram of protein is 4 calories and 1 gram of carbs is 4 calories. I really don't want to eat more fat calories because it is more than double a gram of protein or a gram of carbs. Again, if you are in a state of ketosis, this model doesn't apply. However, if you are not in ketosis, you have to watch your calorie intake.

Look, the world cancer association came out with recommendations that if you want to avoid certain types of cancer, it is recommended that you be in the lower range of your BMI. So, I don't care how you do it, eat fat, protein whatever, but if you are not in ketosis, you have to watch your calories, and fat, is just too costly per gram.

This is why I say a low-fat, not fat-free diet, is excellent.

Yes, I am aware of the law of thermodynamics. I am able to have 60g + of fats and still get a lot of food to fill me up and stay within my calorie target. Fats are actually more satiating than carbs. BMI is bs for me as I have a high LBM - I am however in the athletic BF% range.

Well there you go. You admit to being above average in exercising so you can consume more calories. Thus the "balance" of macros.

Thanks.

Where on earth did you see that? I do no cardio and have a desk job and outside the gym am a lazy bish. You are seeing things, Higher fat is also good for eyesight btw.

I do not understand why you are finding the concept of moderate carbs/fats/protein so hard to grasp. You seem to be grasping at straws to make me 'unusual'. I am a 45 year old woman with a desk job who basically does no cardio and no activities outside strength training. I have a moderate calorie deficit. I am not a special snowflake.

41
not much cardio
strength train 3 to 4 times a week ...one hour
usually over 60g of fat in a day

testease

Dr. Atkins promotes his ketogenic diet as an all you can eat fat and protein but limit your carb deal. If you understand ketosis, your body uses the fat, which is caloricially much higher than carbs or proteins.

So i could eat 7000-8000 calories of fat and protein a day and not get fat.

I should test this theory.

taem

Now that I know you are a vegetarian, I am really curious where you are getting your fats. At 2000 calories a day and 530 of them are fat calories, that's about 37% fat from calories. Being a starch based dieter myself, it's hard to go to that high in fats, unless you are eating nuts, avocados, guava, honey.

As for my last sentence, I fathom it was difficult for a meat eater, generally speaking, to consume so little fat. But now that you say you are a vegetarian, the opposite is happening. Where are you getting your fats from?

As far as your 'balanced dieting' is concerned, that is fine. I still stand by my idea that low fat is still an excellent way to diet.

Since when are guava and honey fat sources?

you are right, i misspoke about guava and honey. I would say that those are very calorie rich foods that would promote to weight gain.

Cranktastic

So, if 1 gram of fat is 9 calories and 1 gram of protein is 4 calories and 1 gram of carbs is 4 calories. I really don't want to eat more fat calories because it is more than double a gram of protein or a gram of carbs. Again, if you are in a state of ketosis, this model doesn't apply. However, if you are not in ketosis, you have to watch your calorie intake.

Look, the world cancer association came out with recommendations that if you want to avoid certain types of cancer, it is recommended that you be in the lower range of your BMI. So, I don't care how you do it, eat fat, protein whatever, but if you are not in ketosis, you have to watch your calories, and fat, is just too costly per gram.

I'm just curious, why do you believe you do not have to watch your calorie intake during ketogenic dieting?

Dr. Atkins promotes his ketogenic diet as an all you can eat fat and protein but limit your carb deal. If you understand ketosis, your body uses the fat, which is caloricially much higher than carbs or proteins.

So, a low fat diet and a low carb diet actually mean the same in the way that you can eat as much as you want just as long as you don't mix carbs and fats together. Why? because of ketosis. Once you follow that rule, you can eat as much as your stomach can hold.

For vegetarians/vegans, eating 500 calories worth of veggies will fill your stomach, and there is very little fat in those veggies.
For Atkins/Paleo dieters, eating 500+ calories worth of fats and meats will fill your stomach and there is little consequence because they are under ketosis.

Never the two shall meet. Eating a "balance," to me, means you are exercising, raising your metabolism and watching calories because you are not under ketosis, thus 1 gram of fat really means 9 calories.

I choose not to follow the Atkins Paleo diet because most meats and dairy are full of things that can hurt you. Whereas with starchy foods, I do have to wash them carefully.

LOLWUT?

taem

Dr. Atkins promotes his ketogenic diet as an all you can eat fat and protein but limit your carb deal. If you understand ketosis, your body uses the fat, which is caloricially much higher than carbs or proteins.

So i could eat 7000-8000 calories of fat and protein a day and not get fat.

I should test this theory.

If you abstain from eating any types of carbs for 3 or 4 days, you should, as long as you can fill your stomach and still eat no carbs or low carbs.

taem

Low fat dieting is excellent.

You will find people here, meaning on this forum, that are on a low carb diet, so they will say fat is good for you.

For the sake of argument, I am going to call them Atkin's type dieter or Paleo (high fat, high protein, low carb), the new Atkin's diet is lower fat, higher protein and still low carb.

low fat dieters (myself and other vegetarians and vegans) will argue that essential fat found in plants are good for you but animal fat is not (saturated, trans, and there is a new man-made fat now which I don't remember the name right now).

No one will argue that there are essential fats and they are needed. Essential because our bodies do not produce them and we need to eat them.

The argument is where are these essential fats found. I have learned that they are found only in plants, some will argue otherwise, but we can agree to disagree.

For me, low-fat dieting is really the way to go, unless you do not mind being in a state of ketosis all the time, then you can eat high fats, high protein.

Explain to me why saturated fat is bad.

I would like to know also as there are a lot of saturated fatty acids that are actually beneficial such as stearic acid which occurs in animal fats and milk. Stearic acid has been shown to lower LDL and to be HDL neutral.

Not to mention the effect of a low fat diet on particle sizes of LDL lipoproteins.......basically a low fat diet reduces the size of the particles, hence the reduction in total cholesterol, but smaller particles are also more atherogenic. Also a low fat diet (higher carb diet) has a pretty negative effect on HDL, it lowers it, and despite lower cholesterol numbers if peoples HDL isn't at a decent number no lower effect of LDL is going to help, which has been confirmed by more recent studies that really only confirms what we already knew 30 years ago which is, it's not Total Cholesterol that should be worrisome, but the relationship of HDL/LDL and of course CRP, Lp{a}, trigs in the blood yada, yada.

Why is saturated fat bad? I never said saturated fat is bad. I said low fat dieting is excellent. Listen up.

You insinuated that it was bad. Chill....

We all must understand that after your body receives enough calories (this depends on various factors such as your metabolism for example) any excessive amounts of calories leads to being overweight, or weight gain. I am hinting at the law of thermodynamics.

I think we can all agree on this.

So, if 1 gram of fat is 9 calories and 1 gram of protein is 4 calories and 1 gram of carbs is 4 calories. I really don't want to eat more fat calories because it is more than double a gram of protein or a gram of carbs. Again, if you are in a state of ketosis, this model doesn't apply. However, if you are not in ketosis, you have to watch your calorie intake.

Look, the world cancer association came out with recommendations that if you want to avoid certain types of cancer, it is recommended that you be in the lower range of your BMI. So, I don't care how you do it, eat fat, protein whatever, but if you are not in ketosis, you have to watch your calories, and fat, is just too costly per gram.

This is why I say a low-fat, not fat-free diet, is excellent.

Yes, I am aware of the law of thermodynamics. I am able to have 60g + of fats and still get a lot of food to fill me up and stay within my calorie target. Fats are actually more satiating than carbs. BMI is bs for me as I have a high LBM - I am however in the athletic BF% range.

Well there you go. You admit to being above average in exercising so you can consume more calories. Thus the "balance" of macros.

Thanks.

Where on earth did you see that? I do no cardio and have a desk job and outside the gym am a lazy bish. You are seeing things, Higher fat is also good for eyesight btw.

I do not understand why you are finding the concept of moderate carbs/fats/protein so hard to grasp. You seem to be grasping at straws to make me 'unusual'. I am a 45 year old woman with a desk job who basically does no cardio and no activities outside strength training. I have a moderate calorie deficit. I am not a special snowflake.

41
not much cardio
strength train 3 to 4 times a week ...one hour
usually over 60g of fat in a day

You admit to doing strength training, different work out. Different macro requirements.

BinaryPulsar

Didn't read the comments or much of anything on this thread (so I'm not even sure what is the direction of the conversation). Just want to say that I eat a lot of fat and have been for a long time. I eat a good amount of protein and I don't limit my carbs.

SideSteel

Dr. Atkins promotes his ketogenic diet as an all you can eat fat and protein but limit your carb deal. If you understand ketosis, your body uses the fat, which is caloricially much higher than carbs or proteins.

So i could eat 7000-8000 calories of fat and protein a day and not get fat.

I should test this theory.

If you abstain from eating any types of carbs for 3 or 4 days, you should, as long as you can fill your stomach.

Why? Why do you believe that this is true? Is it because you cannot maintain an energy surplus due to stomach limitations or is it because you believe that carbohydrate is required to gain fat? Or is it neither?


EDIT: You do realize that protein is insulinogenic and that fat itake supresses hormone sensitive lipase even when insulin is low, right?

taem

Dr. Atkins promotes his ketogenic diet as an all you can eat fat and protein but limit your carb deal. If you understand ketosis, your body uses the fat, which is caloricially much higher than carbs or proteins.

So i could eat 7000-8000 calories of fat and protein a day and not get fat.

I should test this theory.

If you abstain from eating any types of carbs for 3 or 4 days, you should, as long as you can fill your stomach.

Why? Why do you believe that this is true? Is it because you cannot maintain an energy surplus due to stomach limitations or is it because you believe that carbohydrate is required to gain fat? Or is it neither?

This isn't my idea. Dr. Atkin's diet promotes all you can eat meats and fats, very low carbs.
Dr. McDougall promotes all you can eat starches and green and yellow veggies, very low fat.

With Dr. Atkin's diet, you have to first go through the induction phase, you have to be in a ketogenic state.

That is why I believe it is true.

Sarauk2sf

Low fat dieting is excellent.

You will find people here, meaning on this forum, that are on a low carb diet, so they will say fat is good for you.

For the sake of argument, I am going to call them Atkin's type dieter or Paleo (high fat, high protein, low carb), the new Atkin's diet is lower fat, higher protein and still low carb.

low fat dieters (myself and other vegetarians and vegans) will argue that essential fat found in plants are good for you but animal fat is not (saturated, trans, and there is a new man-made fat now which I don't remember the name right now).

No one will argue that there are essential fats and they are needed. Essential because our bodies do not produce them and we need to eat them.

The argument is where are these essential fats found. I have learned that they are found only in plants, some will argue otherwise, but we can agree to disagree.

For me, low-fat dieting is really the way to go, unless you do not mind being in a state of ketosis all the time, then you can eat high fats, high protein.

Explain to me why saturated fat is bad.

I would like to know also as there are a lot of saturated fatty acids that are actually beneficial such as stearic acid which occurs in animal fats and milk. Stearic acid has been shown to lower LDL and to be HDL neutral.

Not to mention the effect of a low fat diet on particle sizes of LDL lipoproteins.......basically a low fat diet reduces the size of the particles, hence the reduction in total cholesterol, but smaller particles are also more atherogenic. Also a low fat diet (higher carb diet) has a pretty negative effect on HDL, it lowers it, and despite lower cholesterol numbers if peoples HDL isn't at a decent number no lower effect of LDL is going to help, which has been confirmed by more recent studies that really only confirms what we already knew 30 years ago which is, it's not Total Cholesterol that should be worrisome, but the relationship of HDL/LDL and of course CRP, Lp{a}, trigs in the blood yada, yada.

Why is saturated fat bad? I never said saturated fat is bad. I said low fat dieting is excellent. Listen up.

You insinuated that it was bad. Chill....

We all must understand that after your body receives enough calories (this depends on various factors such as your metabolism for example) any excessive amounts of calories leads to being overweight, or weight gain. I am hinting at the law of thermodynamics.

I think we can all agree on this.

So, if 1 gram of fat is 9 calories and 1 gram of protein is 4 calories and 1 gram of carbs is 4 calories. I really don't want to eat more fat calories because it is more than double a gram of protein or a gram of carbs. Again, if you are in a state of ketosis, this model doesn't apply. However, if you are not in ketosis, you have to watch your calorie intake.

Look, the world cancer association came out with recommendations that if you want to avoid certain types of cancer, it is recommended that you be in the lower range of your BMI. So, I don't care how you do it, eat fat, protein whatever, but if you are not in ketosis, you have to watch your calories, and fat, is just too costly per gram.

This is why I say a low-fat, not fat-free diet, is excellent.

Yes, I am aware of the law of thermodynamics. I am able to have 60g + of fats and still get a lot of food to fill me up and stay within my calorie target. Fats are actually more satiating than carbs. BMI is bs for me as I have a high LBM - I am however in the athletic BF% range.

Well there you go. You admit to being above average in exercising so you can consume more calories. Thus the "balance" of macros.

Thanks.

Where on earth did you see that? I do no cardio and have a desk job and outside the gym am a lazy bish. You are seeing things, Higher fat is also good for eyesight btw.

I do not understand why you are finding the concept of moderate carbs/fats/protein so hard to grasp. You seem to be grasping at straws to make me 'unusual'. I am a 45 year old woman with a desk job who basically does no cardio and no activities outside strength training. I have a moderate calorie deficit. I am not a special snowflake.

41
not much cardio
strength train 3 to 4 times a week ...one hour
usually over 60g of fat in a day

You admit to doing strength training, different work out. Different macro requirements.

How so? And what does that have to do with anything related to weight loss or fat consumption?

ETA: Out of interest, what do you eat in an average day? How much weight are you losing on average?

SideSteel

Thank you, that's all I wanted to know.

I believe Atkins was wrong.

Sarauk2sf

You stated

We all must understand that after your body receives enough calories (this depends on various factors such as your metabolism for example) any excessive amounts of calories leads to being overweight, or weight gain. I am hinting at the law of thermodynamics.

I think we can all agree on this.

And then you go on to say

Dr. Atkins promotes his ketogenic diet as an all you can eat fat and protein but limit your carb deal. If you understand ketosis, your body uses the fat, which is caloricially much higher than carbs or proteins.

So i could eat 7000-8000 calories of fat and protein a day and not get fat.

I should test this theory.

If you abstain from eating any types of carbs for 3 or 4 days, you should, as long as you can fill your stomach and still eat no carbs or low carbs.

Does this not cause a slight discrepancy in your logic? How do these two coincide with each other?

wibutterflymagic

It's not that fat is bad, it's what kind of fat and how much.

Having a diet of only fried foods, mayo and butter is not good for you but having a balanced diet that incorporates any of those foods and other foods like avocados, nuts, fish in moderation is all good. Having a breakfast of fried eggs, bacon, and hashbrowns, a lunch of a fast food burger and fries and then a dinner of pizza and cheesebread multiple times a week is too much making it "bad" fat.

But having a poached egg sandwich with a little cheese for breakfast, a burger without the cheese, no mayo, mustard, tomato, avocado and lettuce for lunch, and then a chicken breast with some spinach with a tablespoon of grated parmesan cheese are all much better choices but still with fat that our bodies need.

See the difference?

Sarauk2sf

It's not that fat is bad, it's what kind of fat and how much.

Having a diet of only fried foods, mayo and butter is not good for you but having a balanced diet that incorporates any of those foods and other foods like avocados, nuts, fish in moderation is all good. Having a breakfast of fried eggs, bacon, and hashbrowns, a lunch of a fast food burger and fries and then a dinner of pizza and cheesebread multiple times a week is too much making it "bad" fat.

But having a poached egg sandwich with a little cheese for breakfast, a burger without the cheese, no mayo, mustard, tomato, avocado and lettuce for lunch, and then a chicken breast with some spinach with a tablespoon of grated parmesan cheese are all much better choices but still with fat that our bodies need.

See the difference?

What is 'bad' about butter?

capnwo85

So I can eat all THE STEAK and avocados I wan't until my stretchy pants don't even fit, and still lose weight? AWESOME!!