Teenagers..... give me strength

HealthyKt78

It's a physiological fact that a teenagers frontal lobe is not fully developed until they are in their early 20's. So it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to base any ideas from critical thinking and logic.....all they have is the limbic system...which is PURE emotion.....which is EXACTLY what teenagers base their entire life on. It's not the teenagers fault......it's just the way us humans were built.

Not fully developed does not mean it isn't there. If teenagers have no logic then please tell me how they are able to do any type of academic work or make any decisions at all. It is completely false to say all a teenager has is their limbic system. How on earth would one function with ONLY their emotions as you just stated. It is a LOGICAL decision not to set yourself on fire. It is a LOGICAL decision not to run out in front of a train. It takes LOGIC to be able to do trigonometry, write an analysis about a russian novel, write a complex lab report, apply for college or any of the other things most teenagers are required to do. Are you saying that all of us who made it to adulthood are just lucky to have made it this far because how could we have survived all those years with just pure emotion and no logical thought?

I'm curious as to what you teach. I really hope you aren't teaching your students that all they have to rely on is emotion. I would think as a teacher you would expect high school students, especially juniors and seniors, to be able to use critical thinking skills and logic, at the very least in their school work.

I have no words for this because it's pointless. Teenagers will never see eye to eye with an adult because they don't have the tools to do that yet.

You don't have kids or deal with them so you don't understand what the OP was saying. He was venting......which is okay and allowed.

I was a teenager once...SO I DO UNDERSTAND......but I also understand what it means to be an adult. I know how I was at that age and if I knew then what I know now...BLAH BLAH BLAH.

Like I said countless times, I DO understand what the OP was saying. He was talking about just his daughter and only HIS daughter. The only thing that bothered me about it was the title which he has said he would change if he could. I see eye to eye with MANY adults. There are some adults out there who will never see eye to eye or listen to the reason of a teenager just because they're young. I don't know you two personally but based on the responses I've gotten from you and BrendaLee you seem to be two of those people. Now I have to go develop my frontal lobe because apparently I lack one completely otherwise I may not have enough logical thought to get out of bed and drive my car to class in the morning.

Which pedal is the break and which one is the gas and where does that darn key go again?:ohwell:

BrendaLee

Hmm. I was polite in my response to you, but you're set on overreacting. Perhaps you're not as mature as I thought. I take back my "Hun".

Teenagers are not the wisest creatures on the planet, in general. If you think of yourself as an exception to that, that's great, but the teenage years are not known for being the most well thought out years. You're barely a teenager anymore, don't stress too much about a thread on a message board with a bunch of parents venting about their kids.

I was not overreacting. Just because I choose to stand up for a cause does not mean that I am overreacting or that I'm not mature. Maybe you don't get it because you aren't a teenager but there are many who feel the same way I do. I don't deserve to be treated as if I'm a moron just because I'm young. I don't deserve to walk into a store and have an older person look at me as if I'm some sort of hoodlum just because I'm young. Yes, that has happened to me. I know some teenagers are dramatic, think they know everything and won't listen to reason, my youngest sister is one of those people, but not everyone fits into that category. It bothers me when people make a generalization about any group of people.

This isn't a cause- it's a post on a message board by a frustrated parent...and not even a very serious post at that. I don't understand because I'm not a teenager? Been there, done that.

I love teenagers. I really do. I also love cats, I love my mother and I love ice cream- all of which are great sources of frustration for me.

The OP apologized and said he would change the title of the post if he could. I have no problem with him. You obviously don't understand. I have this discussion with my grandparents all the time about how some people will just always assume that all teenagers are bad. They hate that people do that to me. I've also spoken to many other adults who feel the same way. You're going to shut down everything I say because I'm a teenager. (Which totally proves my point by the way) Frankly, just because you're an adult doesn't mean you know everything either. No one knows everything. My goal in life is to learn something everyday. I will NEVER know everything but neither will anyone else and just because you (universal you) may be older than does not mean you are any more intelligent or any wiser than I am.

PS. This is actually something I have taken a stand on for awhile now. This may be just a post on a message board to you but the subject it pertains to is a CAUSE to me.

OK. You're passionate about this. Passion is a good thing, but sometimes you need to choose your battles otherwise you run the risk of coming across as a bit of an extremist. Let's put this in a different light- how many teenagers say, "Parents just don't understand (or worse)!" Probably just as many as (if not more than) the number of parents who say, "Teenagers think they know it all!". Teenagers generalize about their parents, parents generalize about their kids- it's the nature of the beast. You've lived one side of the argument, as a parent of a teen, and a person who just happens to have been a teenager at one point, I've lived both sides.

I don't think any of this needed to be debated to begin with.
__

TIme to lock this thread? lol

Iceprincessk25

I don't think any of this needed to be debated to begin with.

DITTO.

BrendaLee

Which pedal is the break and which one is the gas and where does that darn key go again?:ohwell:

The brake is on the left, the gas is on the right. The key goes in the ignition which is generally to the right of the steering wheel.

Iceprincessk25

It's a physiological fact that a teenagers frontal lobe is not fully developed until they are in their early 20's. So it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to base any ideas from critical thinking and logic.....all they have is the limbic system...which is PURE emotion.....which is EXACTLY what teenagers base their entire life on. It's not the teenagers fault......it's just the way us humans were built.

Not fully developed does not mean it isn't there. If teenagers have no logic then please tell me how they are able to do any type of academic work or make any decisions at all. It is completely false to say all a teenager has is their limbic system. How on earth would one function with ONLY their emotions as you just stated. It is a LOGICAL decision not to set yourself on fire. It is a LOGICAL decision not to run out in front of a train. It takes LOGIC to be able to do trigonometry, write an analysis about a russian novel, write a complex lab report, apply for college or any of the other things most teenagers are required to do. Are you saying that all of us who made it to adulthood are just lucky to have made it this far because how could we have survived all those years with just pure emotion and no logical thought?

I'm curious as to what you teach. I really hope you aren't teaching your students that all they have to rely on is emotion. I would think as a teacher you would expect high school students, especially juniors and seniors, to be able to use critical thinking skills and logic, at the very least in their school work.

I have no words for this because it's pointless. Teenagers will never see eye to eye with an adult because they don't have the tools to do that yet.

You don't have kids or deal with them so you don't understand what the OP was saying. He was venting......which is okay and allowed.

I was a teenager once...SO I DO UNDERSTAND......but I also understand what it means to be an adult. I know how I was at that age and if I knew then what I know now...BLAH BLAH BLAH.

Like I said countless times, I DO understand what the OP was saying. He was talking about just his daughter and only HIS daughter. The only thing that bothered me about it was the title which he has said he would change if he could. I see eye to eye with MANY adults. There are some adults out there who will never see eye to eye or listen to the reason of a teenager just because they're young. I don't know you two personally but based on the responses I've gotten from you and BrendaLee you seem to be two of those people. Now I have to go develop my frontal lobe because apparently I lack one completely otherwise I may not have enough logical thought to get out of bed and drive my car to class in the morning.

Which pedal is the break and which one is the gas and where does that darn key go again?:ohwell:

Now you are being a snarky with your frontal lobe comments and totally proved my point for me. Thanks doll. :drinker:

I'm going to respectfully pull outta this conversation and agree to disagree. :flowerforyou:

deedeehawaii

To the original poster, yes those teens can be a challenge. But, we've had all those "pre-teen years" to get toughened up for the job as the parent of a teen. Whew.

havingitall

My 17 year old daughter is "getting it" on her own terms. We have been eating healthy in our home for over a year now. She still has her times that she eats junk with her friends but that is less than it used to be. Now she does some exercise on her own and she said she may even go running today! This is all her own choice. I tried the nagging thing with her, but it made her feel inadequate. Now I encourage her when she does something right and try to back off when she messes up.

Your daughter knows what a healthy diet is and that she should exercise. Nagging her will not get the results that YOU want. Just as you have come to losing weight on your time, so will she. It will not happen on your timetable ( as much as you would like it to be )

Just try to set a good example through your actions and not your words.... she will notice.

CasperO

This is easy,,, very simple. Don't drive her to college. Drive her to the recruiting office.

I left home when I was 17 because my parents literally could not afford to feed me. I turned 18 in boot camp, and was given 105 pushups for my birthday.

That'll cure it,,,

Lisa0711

Your daughter knows what a healthy diet is and that she should exercise. Nagging her will not get the results that YOU want. Just as you have come to losing weight on your time, so will she. It will not happen on your timetable ( as much as you would like it to be )

Just try to set a good example through your actions and not your words.... she will notice.

I agree. Sometimes leading by example is a lot more helpful than anything else. Just give it some time.

catherine1979

My gosh, your daughter sounds just like me at that age, all those many years ago! I was slim in high school, 5'9" and I weighed between 135 and 140. I went to university and I actually lost weight while my friends ballooned. But then I moved out of residence and into my own apartment... the menu was pizza, beer, chicken wings, and burgers. No more beloved salad bar in sight. Even worse, the gym, which had been right across the street was now quite a hike away.

My mom tried to caution me as well, but you know, I guess it's been a lesson I've had to learn for myself. Sadly, it took me gaining over 100 pounds in the last 10 years to get there. I hope your daughter can learn from your example before she's a fat, dissatisfied thirty-year-old like me.

savvystephy

Yes I have an 18 year old teenage girl who KNOWS everything. Dad knows nothing. Does doesn't know that 3500 excess calories eaten will equal a pound gained. Dad doesn't know that eating 2300 calories at 10:20 at night will NOT affect her weight. Dad doesn't know that it is healthier to only eat 4 cups of ice cream and 1 cup of peanut butter with apple slices is healthier than eating the original 8 cups of ice cream she was going to eat. Dad doesn't know that the eating habits she has now will absolutely guarantee she will get the freshman 20 in her first year of college. Dad doesn't know that her individual unwillingness to work out will doom her with being overweight once she gets older. Dad knows nothing.

Oh I can't wait until August 3. I will gladly drive her to college then. Give me strength.

She'll get through it. I was kind of like that when I was a teenager. I HATED my Dad too. But, after going away to college I learned the importance of family relationships and respect and love both my parents. I just have learned that I can't visit with my mother more than a certain amount of time and whatnot. She is going to have to learn about her eating habits on her own. No one but herself is going to make her change. :flowerforyou: She'll learn. You'll see how much she grows even over the course of a few months.

nhendri

OMG!!!!! All of these post are scaring the crud outa me. My daughter is 5 going on 6 and we are having huge behavior issue's now! I cant imagine her as a teenager!!!! AAAAHHHHHH Help lol:noway:

CasperO

For us 18 was easy, ours were pretty mature by then. the 13-14-15 years were like death but took longer. My daughter later told me "I remember being very angry with you, and feeling that my anger was justified - but I can't for the life of me remember just what I was angry about".

This too shall pass.

chefcc

Well it looks like Healthykt78 lives in a perfect world. We should all be so lucky.

CasperO

Which pedal is the break and which one is the gas and where does that darn key go again?:ohwell:

The brake is on the left, the gas is on the right. The key goes in the ignition which is generally to the right of the steering wheel.

Silly Brenda,,,

The clutch is on the left, the brake is in the middle and the gas is on the right. The stick is by your right hand (you're not british are you?) and the wheel is right in front of you. :laugh:

DeeDeeLHF

I am the mother of a 23 year old son and college grad who now lives at home because he can't find the perfect job, a 20 yr old son and college student, a 17 year old son and senior in HS and a very soon to be 13 year old daughter and I also have another daughter who is 10.

All I want to say is it is nice to not be alone!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

My kids are great but having rational discussions with them look just like this thread!:laugh: :laugh: :sad: :laugh:

mrsbeck

Casper and BrendaLee just keep making me love them! :laugh:

I've been biting my tongue hard enough to bleed while reading this thread. I'm just gonna chuckle now, and back away slowly.

God, I've never been so glad to be 34!

m2kjenn

For us 18 was easy, ours were pretty mature by then. the 13-14-15 years were like death but took longer. My daughter later told me "I remember being very angry with you, and feeling that my anger was justified - but I can't for the life of me remember just what I was angry about".

This too shall pass.

I've gotten quite a chuckle from this thread myself. Parenting teens is the most difficult job in the world, nothing can prepare you for it and you just have to figure it out as you go. I have two teenage daughters, 15 & 17, love them to death but there are days I want to lock them in the basement.

I have often said I cannot wait til the day they realize how terrible they have been at times, that first time they say "Mom, I realize now how right you were" that day I will finally feel redeemed. I know it will come, we all eventually come to that place. I also frequently ask my 17 year old when she is asking to do something crazy, consider what your answer will be when your daughter asks this someday - although she doesn't really see the significance of that now, my hope is that little seed will stay in the back of her mind and when she has that conversation someday with her daughter she will remember Mom.

lina1131

Teenagers! :grumble:







Just kidding :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

jmdolan

i have to say that i also got a chuckle from this thread. Im almost 25 now and I was always a decent kid growing up. But man did I have a B*&^hy Side. And i WAS always right. Like i said before, i was a good kid but it doesnt mean I still didnt have my battles with my parents. I made good decisions and sometimes I look back and there were times i WAS right. But there are many times I can look back and say my parents were right... or at least that I can see where they were coming from.

This thread has created such a stir. I think everyone judges and stereotypes to some degree. if not about the way teens act then about something else in the world. And there is probably SOME truth to alot of those stereotypes with the understanding that there will always be outliers. HOWEVER, i think if you ask most teens if there have been times when they disagree with their parents the majority will say yes. And if there are teens that never disagree with there parents then i think to some degree they need to take a bigger stand on what the believe to be right.

The adults in this thread werent stating that teens were dumb or idiots or really putting teens down in general. I dont even think any of them used the words dumb or idiot. They were simply generalizing the fact that teens and their parents dont always see eye to eye... And Im sure if you took a survery of both teens and parents you would find that on AVERAGE this is the case. Again, always recognizing that their are outliers.

MercuryBlue

I'm going to have teenagers in my house in ten years. I'm terrified at the prospect, lol.

Not all teenagers are raging lunatics- some are quite mature for their age! That being said, MANY of them are irrational know-it-alls. Unfortunately, nothing can be done. They really do have to learn the hard lessons for themselves...

(I was ALWAYS an irrational know-it-all growing up. You couldn't tell me anything. Even if I know you were right, I'd say, "I have to see it for myself!")

Some things never change.


Also...

"He who takes offense when none is intended is a fool, he who takes offense when offense is intended is a bigger fool. --Confucious "

sweetteacher123

Keep talking to your teen about healthy life choices. Make sure not to lecture, because that really turns them off. (I know, because my senior daughter tunes me out as soon as she feels I am "lecturing" her.) However, I do know that they do listen...eventually. They will figure out we're not as stupid as we once were. In the meantime, keep fighting the good fight!

HealthyKt78

i have to say that i also got a chuckle from this thread. Im almost 25 now and I was always a decent kid growing up. But man did I have a B*&^hy Side. And i WAS always right. Like i said before, i was a good kid but it doesnt mean I still didnt have my battles with my parents. I made good decisions and sometimes I look back and there were times i WAS right. But there are many times I can look back and say my parents were right... or at least that I can see where they were coming from.

This thread has created such a stir. I think everyone judges and stereotypes to some degree. if not about the way teens act then about something else in the world. And there is probably SOME truth to alot of those stereotypes with the understanding that there will always be outliers. HOWEVER, i think if you ask most teens if there have been times when they disagree with their parents the majority will say yes. And if there are teens that never disagree with there parents then i think to some degree they need to take a bigger stand on what the believe to be right.

The adults in this thread werent stating that teens were dumb or idiots or really putting teens down in general. I dont even think any of them used the words dumb or idiot. They were simply generalizing the fact that teens and their parents dont always see eye to eye... And Im sure if you took a survery of both teens and parents you would find that on AVERAGE this is the case. Again, always recognizing that their are outliers.

Thank you. Based on what you said I was a lot like you. It wasn't the OP that I had a problem with. I realize that a lot of teenagers fit the stereotype. What made me angry was the responses I got to my post. I respect that everyone feels differently about different people and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I understand that teenagers and their parents may not see eye to eye BUT no one agrees on everything. Two adults can have a differing opinion as well as two teenagers. Telling me I lack "the tools" to understand the point of view of an adult or that I only have my emotions to rely on and have no logical skills is what really angered me. I was simply pointing out that not everyone fits the stereotype. It was when I was attacked that I got defensive.

jojo52610

LOL what really cracks me up is every person who posted on this thread whatever their opionion or statement was, at one time were or are guess what .........a Teenager.............

BrendaLee

i have to say that i also got a chuckle from this thread. Im almost 25 now and I was always a decent kid growing up. But man did I have a B*&^hy Side. And i WAS always right. Like i said before, i was a good kid but it doesnt mean I still didnt have my battles with my parents. I made good decisions and sometimes I look back and there were times i WAS right. But there are many times I can look back and say my parents were right... or at least that I can see where they were coming from.

This thread has created such a stir. I think everyone judges and stereotypes to some degree. if not about the way teens act then about something else in the world. And there is probably SOME truth to alot of those stereotypes with the understanding that there will always be outliers. HOWEVER, i think if you ask most teens if there have been times when they disagree with their parents the majority will say yes. And if there are teens that never disagree with there parents then i think to some degree they need to take a bigger stand on what the believe to be right.

The adults in this thread werent stating that teens were dumb or idiots or really putting teens down in general. I dont even think any of them used the words dumb or idiot. They were simply generalizing the fact that teens and their parents dont always see eye to eye... And Im sure if you took a survery of both teens and parents you would find that on AVERAGE this is the case. Again, always recognizing that their are outliers.

Thank you. Based on what you said I was a lot like you. It wasn't the OP that I had a problem with. I realize that a lot of teenagers fit the stereotype. What made me angry was the responses I got to my post. I respect that everyone feels differently about different people and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I understand that teenagers and their parents may not see eye to eye BUT no one agrees on everything. Two adults can have a differing opinion as well as two teenagers. Telling me I lack "the tools" to understand the point of view of an adult or that I only have my emotions to rely on and have no logical skills is what really angered me. I was simply pointing out that not everyone fits the stereotype. It was when I was attacked that I got defensive.

Actually, you attacked the post first. Who are you to tell the OP that he needs to choose a better title for his posts when his original title wasn't a problem to begin with? I guess freedom of speech doesn't extend to the use of the word teenagers when expressing parental frustrations. You'be been going on about something so trivial now for 2 days.

Let me guess, "How dare you call my plight trivial!", right?

sheri3762

to whoever wants to listen to my opinion. Brenda was not out of line my calling someone "hun". It is used by many of us older adults when refering to younger people. Its just an endearment. NOthing more. If someone is offended by it, then I'm sorry. It definately was not meant to be offensive. I use it all the time and I really hope I haven't offended anyone because if I did, there are alot of them! As far as teenagers go, putting them into a catagory is just a way of generalizing. Of course we all know each teen is different. Some better than others. Some more mature and some who think they know everything! I had three that fell into the "lnowing everything" catagory! Of course, my boys were much easier to deal with than my daughter. Its all a learning process. the older get, the more you learn. today, I can happily state that anytime my kids (who are all in their twenties now) need advise or help making decisions. they come to me first. I've been put into the "old" catagory many times by my kids friends (when they were teens) and believe me, I'm definately not old yet!

to the initial post, I really did laugh when I read it! Not about your problems of course, but I laughed at the image it gave me when I thought about all the things my own teens did! Beleive me, it will get easier. We, as parents, all want whats best for our kids, but unfortunately, they have to learn by their own decisions. I've been there and watched them fall and could do nothing about it.

to the young lady who was offended. I'm sorry you were, but just try to understand that we are all a bunch of parents who really need to vent sometimes and our use of words may at times mean general things but by no means do they include everyone!

jrbowers83

At 26, I find myself right in the middle of this little debate. I'm out of the teenage years of feeling like I'm grown up and ready for anything and know it all, and yet I'm not so old that I can't identify with the teenage age group. I have a 6 year old who is already in the display of these same combative type arguments. Also, for the other parents out there do you notice how very similar a teenagers mood swings are to a toddler's temper tantrums? And it makes sense. A toddler is right on the brink of childhood, stuck with being too young to properly communicate his/her emotions and lacking the skills to be independent like they want to. But at the same time they are unsure of themselves and will come running to have cuddle and reassurance from mom/dad. A teenager is right on the brink of adulthood, lacking the life skills to "prove" themselves in the real world, wanting to take on all the adult responsibilities and be respected as an adult and feel that they're "grown-up". But deep down they do still want that comfort and assurance from mom/dad. The security of knowing that they will have someone to cheer them on when they succeed, or someone to fall back on when they do not.
My advice to the parents of teenagers, and it may seem counterintuitive, but try to turn the tables and instead of trying to force your teens to listen and understand you, start listening and understanding what they're doing, what interests them, and what bothers them. Usually this will result in them feeling more secure in your knowledge and a little more two-way communication. On the other hand you may just get another eye roll and "stay out of my business" but keep trying. They are testing boundaries just as a toddler is, so you can't give up easily.
I also just want to say that it is VERY obvious that the parents that have vented about the teens love them very much. My mother never cared so much to even argue back with me. Just yelled at me and walked away. So you're doing something right just to be there and care. Hope this helps :flowerforyou:

MercuryBlue

to whoever wants to listen to my opinion. Brenda was not out of line my calling someone "hun". It is used by many of us older adults when refering to younger people. Its just an endearment. NOthing more. If someone is offended by it, then I'm sorry. It definately was not meant to be offensive. I use it all the time and I really hope I haven't offended anyone because if I did, there are alot of them!

I was thinking the same thing. Also, the word 'hun' or 'hon' is often a regional thing. Has nothing to do with endearment and just how the people speak. But like I said before, "He who takes offense when none is intended is a fool, he who takes offense when offense is intended is a bigger fool. "

Also, there was no 'attacking'. I only saw one person getting defensive and hostile. Ah well..... sucks when people manage to spin a thread in the wrong direction, lol.

HealthyKt78

i have to say that i also got a chuckle from this thread. Im almost 25 now and I was always a decent kid growing up. But man did I have a B*&^hy Side. And i WAS always right. Like i said before, i was a good kid but it doesnt mean I still didnt have my battles with my parents. I made good decisions and sometimes I look back and there were times i WAS right. But there are many times I can look back and say my parents were right... or at least that I can see where they were coming from.

This thread has created such a stir. I think everyone judges and stereotypes to some degree. if not about the way teens act then about something else in the world. And there is probably SOME truth to alot of those stereotypes with the understanding that there will always be outliers. HOWEVER, i think if you ask most teens if there have been times when they disagree with their parents the majority will say yes. And if there are teens that never disagree with there parents then i think to some degree they need to take a bigger stand on what the believe to be right.

The adults in this thread werent stating that teens were dumb or idiots or really putting teens down in general. I dont even think any of them used the words dumb or idiot. They were simply generalizing the fact that teens and their parents dont always see eye to eye... And Im sure if you took a survery of both teens and parents you would find that on AVERAGE this is the case. Again, always recognizing that their are outliers.

Thank you. Based on what you said I was a lot like you. It wasn't the OP that I had a problem with. I realize that a lot of teenagers fit the stereotype. What made me angry was the responses I got to my post. I respect that everyone feels differently about different people and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I understand that teenagers and their parents may not see eye to eye BUT no one agrees on everything. Two adults can have a differing opinion as well as two teenagers. Telling me I lack "the tools" to understand the point of view of an adult or that I only have my emotions to rely on and have no logical skills is what really angered me. I was simply pointing out that not everyone fits the stereotype. It was when I was attacked that I got defensive.

Actually, you attacked the post first. Who are you to tell the OP that he needs to choose a better title for his posts when his original title wasn't a problem to begin with? I guess freedom of speech doesn't extend to the use of the word teenagers when expressing parental frustrations. You'be been going on about something so trivial now for 2 days.

Let me guess, "How dare you call my plight trivial!", right?

Yeah. Like I said, just because I'm a teenager who doesn't see eye to eye with an adult (you) doesn't mean I'm wrong. I will agree to disagree with you because no matter how valid my argument might be, I'm just a teenager with no logical skills. I didn't go on. I didn't respond to anything else you said. I stopped. I responded to one post that I thought was well thought out and supported both view points. And actually it's just been a day but I could be wrong in my counting since I lack a frontal lobe. This is the last thing I'll say to you Brenda so you can choose to respond or not. It seems pretty clear that you've made a good name for yourself on these boards. It's okay though, I know I have supporters out there. They've made a point to tell me privately. In the real world I am seen as a mature adult and when I make this argument with people who actually matter they understand my viewpoint and most agree. I honestly don't care what someone from an online forum feels about me. I find it hilarious actually. And I argue because I'm good at it and it's good practice for law school.

Iceprincessk25

UGHHHH!!! DEAD HORSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!