When is sacrificing form okay?

Mutant13

Argued with my s/o about this today. He noticed the last rep or two of my last set of hammer curls were pretty sloppy. I told him I knew about this but the next weight down wasn't challenging enough, so to me having the last couple of reps be imperfect was worth it to have the rest of my set be challenging and effective.

Anyway we agreed to disagree about that, and ill keep using the weight I have. But it makes for an interesting question- When is sacrificing form acceptable? If ever?

Hendrix7

I doubt you will do yourself much damage with hammer curl no matter what the form was like, within reason.

If you are talking about squats and deadlifts etc, a true 1 rep max is almost never going to be a perfect looking rep.

I think perfect form is slightly overrated and a lot of people don't pull the kind of weights that they are capable of as they are too worried about minute details, although it's a fine line.

This is a pretty interesting video for example, discussing why tons of successful bodybuilders use what would be considered "bad" form on their rowing movements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjTClwvt9LY

darrensurrey

Well, what is the point in doing a hammer curl if you are using your body to get the last reps completed? The actual bicep effort would probably be a lot lower than it would had you gone down to a lighter weight where you could control exactly how much effort you'd be using. Otherwise, why not pick up the heaviest weight you can lift and use the body to throw the weight up from the start?

HelloDan

I agree about form being overrated.

Yes, when you're sub-maximal by a long way, you should expect to hit perfect form, however as you get heavier, it's about being within a safe range, rather than being picture perfect. As long as you're not risking injury, and you're not making the exercise completely pointless - for example if you were just using momentum on a curl, I see no problem.

HelloDan

Otherwise, why not pick up the heaviest weight you can lift and use the body to throw the weight up from the start?

That's what I do as a competitive sport!

darrensurrey

Otherwise, why not pick up the heaviest weight you can lift and use the body to throw the weight up from the start?

That's what I do as a competitive sport!

For hammer curls? We're talking about form and hammer curls, not powerlifting.

Mutant13

I agree about form being overrated.

Yes, when you're sub-maximal by a long way, you should expect to hit perfect form, however as you get heavier, it's about being within a safe range, rather than being picture perfect. As long as you're not risking injury, and you're not making the exercise completely pointless - for example if you were just using momentum on a curl, I see no problem.

Yeah, and it's only a very slight use of momentum at that. If it were an exercise where I was at risk of injury I wouldn't do it.
As for going down to the lighter weight- it's a 2 kg difference! Sure I can lift them with perfect form right to the end, and it takes no effort. It feels like I might as well go pick up the pink dolly weights and flap those about while I listen to Carly Rae Jepsen and laugh too loudly while talking on my phone.

HelloDan

For hammer curls? We're talking about form and hammer curls, not powerlifting.

No not for hammer curls, just the general concept.

However, even training hammer curls, it could be a valid technique, if you wanted to heave a weight you could not lift up, and then lower it under control. Just the same as any other negative really.

Mutant13

Otherwise, why not pick up the heaviest weight you can lift and use the body to throw the weight up from the start?

I feel like there's a bit of the difference there. The rest of the set is done with perfect form, and the compromise on the last couple lifts is minimal. I guess I could just not do the last rep of my set, but mentally it feels better to finish it

HelloDan

As for going down to the lighter weight- it's a 2 kg difference! Sure I can lift them with perfect form right to the end, and it takes no effort. It feels like I might as well go pick up the pink dolly weights and flap those about while I listen to Carly Rae Jepsen and laugh too loudly while talking on my phone.

That strategy will only work if the lighter dumbbells are pink, otherwise it's just a waste of time!


Ok, back to seriousness, that's a significant drop, I'd def stick with the heavier dumbbells.

darrensurrey

For hammer curls? We're talking about form and hammer curls, not powerlifting.

No not for hammer curls, just the general concept.

However, even training hammer curls, it could be a valid technique, if you wanted to heave a weight you could not lift up, and then lower it under control. Just the same as any other negative really.

Sure. But for the OP's specific question. Stay focused, man!

Mutant13

I can't remember where I read it, it might have been NROL- the author talked about how form was overrated because different people just move differently because of how their bodies are, and it's better for them to move in a way that is natural to them.

I don't know If I agree, but the concept is interesting

laddyboy

A little movement is OK as long as their is not the risk of injure. Bad for is where the injuries come from. If the next weight up IS to heavy then stay with the lighter weight and SQUEEZE real hard at the top of the move.

The key is failing...you don't succeed until you fail. If that last rep only goes up so high and your form is acceptable then that's good.

I like Shaun T's saying...the work doesn't start until your tired.

HelloDan

I can't remember where I read it, it might have been NROL- the author talked about how form was overrated because different people just move differently because of how their bodies are, and it's better for them to move in a way that is natural to them.

I don't know If I agree, but the concept is interesting

I think it kind of depends how you look at it.

I agree in the sense that picture perfect form is only achievable in many movements by someone who has perfect proportions, so in reality there is a range of acceptability, which is safe and effective for most people.

However, I don't see that as just move however suits you, sometimes movement patterns need to be modified, to fall into the acceptable range, as people have developed bad movement patterns over time.

RECowgill

For another perspective on the importance of form you can look towards Charles Glass (sortof a legend I suppose).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddHxLy_ckvY

He says its important, but he definitely doesn't think it's the most important thing in training. Sounds like he would say if its a choice between going heavy and perfect form, sacrifice some form and go heavy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=LvRV1BCFgZ4&NR=1

In that video he's training some woman who is back on her first day. He's trying to shock her muscles back into activity, and her form is atrocious at points. Does he care? Does he correct her? Not really.

So if you asked him he would say form is important but its not the most important thing and there are conditions where it can be sacrificed.

In theory he knows more about this stuff than all of us combined.

darrensurrey

I can't remember where I read it, it might have been NROL- the author talked about how form was overrated because different people just move differently because of how their bodies are, and it's better for them to move in a way that is natural to them.

I don't know If I agree, but the concept is interesting

I think it kind of depends how you look at it.

I agree in the sense that picture perfect form is only achievable in many movements by someone who has perfect proportions, so in reality there is a range of acceptability, which is safe and effective for most people.

However, I don't see that as just move however suits you, sometimes movement patterns need to be modified, to fall into the acceptable range, as people have developed bad movement patterns over time.

Yep. That's how people ruin their backs picking up a book from the floor!

IronSmasher

Of course form is important, but almost every rule has exceptions.

Azdak

It's easy to get bogged down in semantics about what exactly "perfect form" means. I would want to know more information. Like what kind of "compromise" we are talking about, at what point in the set this is occurring, and why the person is compomising form to begin with.

I can think of a number of scenarios where compromised form might be OK--but it would also be important that the person lifting was doing it for a specific purpose. If someone was just slopping through some reps because the workout called for "x" number of reps that set and they were just trying to hit a number, then I think it is a waste of time and effort.

Someone else said that "the real work begins when you are tired". It seems to me that would argue in favor of maintaining form as long as possible, since you would want to do the highest quality movements during the time when they would have the most impact.

While there is no black/white answer, I would argue that for newbies/less experienced lifters, maintaining form and avoiding "sloppy" lifts is of higher importance.

ilovedeadlifts

personally I don't think you should compromise your form on anything unless it's an absolute max lift and form just breaks down.

Awkward30

personally I don't think you should compromise your form on anything unless it's an absolute max lift and form just breaks down.

I'm in this camp. With the caveat that by bad form here I mean you are not correctly doing the exercise. Just drop the last couple reps. In fact the problem you are describing is why I frequently hate dumbbells and kettlebells... The lower one won't challenge me and the upper one is bordering on too hard.

Like most of the others said, a max effort lift is okay to have slight break downs, but I hate when people say they set a squat PR but didn't actually break parallel, or their max bench comes no where near their chest. To me, you are only cheating yourself. I'd rather go all the way down and maybe bail. Also, I think it breeds more bad form if say next time you go in and are having a bad day, but since you got in all your reps this time, you feel you need to next time too and just have overtly ****ty form the whole time or something.

Also I think it depends on what the form break is. Potentially dangerous, like could hurt a rotator cuff or something? Don't do it. Movement in the wrist within your ROM, but just sloppy? Fine.

jacksonpt

As with most things, I think there is some gray area when talking about form.

Are we talking about a little extra movement/help, or are we talking about total breakdown? Are we talking about iso lifts (like curls), or compound lifts (squats, deads)?

I think the more sloppy you get, the more concerned you should be. I also think there's a lot less room for error in heavier compound lifts, as the risk for injury is higher.

In your case (curls, only the last couple of reps, only a little slop), I think you're probably ok. But I'd be very careful... a little extra movement now could lead to a lot of bad form down the road.

On a side note... it sounds like it's more of an ego thing than anything else - you'd rather do 2 reps sloppy to finish the set than stop early when you can no longer keep good form. Ego is a double-edged sword in the weight room...

AlsDonkBoxSquat

I can't remember where I read it, it might have been NROL- the author talked about how form was overrated because different people just move differently because of how their bodies are, and it's better for them to move in a way that is natural to them.

I don't know If I agree, but the concept is interesting

yes, but that has more to do with the way the body is put together, not breaking from your natural form because you "have to get in those last 2" at any cost. In this situation I would either 1) work negatives with an assist up, 2) drop to the lower weight but instead of sticking to the set reps lift until maxed, or 3) buy 1 kg barbie weights with a strap that you can wear on the back of your hand so the drop isn't as significant. Granted, breaking from form has different impacts depending on what you're doing and can be more dangerous for some lifts than others.

diodelcibo

I only ever sacrifice on the last rep or if I'm just getting the weight up to do negatives.

Helloitsdan

I agree about form being overrated.

Yes, when you're sub-maximal by a long way, you should expect to hit perfect form, however as you get heavier, it's about being within a safe range, rather than being picture perfect. As long as you're not risking injury, and you're not making the exercise completely pointless - for example if you were just using momentum on a curl, I see no problem.

I agree and nice name Dan!
=D

714rah714

I'm more interested in working muscle groups, so perfection on any one exercise is not something I'm striving for.

dare2love81

Never. Proper form is crucial in keeping yourself from getting hurt. Do slip ups happen? Sure. But recognize it and next time don't push yourself that hard. I lift until failure on my third set. But my first and second set I select the proper weight so that I can get through it without sacrificing form.

ninerbuff

Here's my experience with form: if you're lifting for 10 reps, and the first 8 are really good and the last two a bit off........meh. There are lots of people in the gym who lift with perfect form and don't improve because they are more concerned with perfect form rather than progression to harder resistance.

The mirror can't tell if you're doing perfect form (when you aren't working out), but it will tell you if you're not progressing.


A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

MellyGibson

Wow, what a controversial subject that has done nothing to actually clear up the debate! I think the lesson is that many people do things differently and have different views, much like you and your significant other!

What makes ME feel best about my lifting:

I concentrate on form - which to me means that I'm engaging the specific set of muscles that are used for that movement. I have a desired number of reps that I want to hit - let's say 10. Once I can do 10 without sacrificing my "form", I move up in weights. This many mean that I can only get 6-7 of the heavier weight in before form goes out the window. That's fine. I keep that weight until I can successfully do 10 without sacrificing form.

kuntry_navy

nothing wrong with a little lean here or there, twisting is what always messed me up

jazzguy4him

As a lifter for many years am pretty stuck on the belief that good form is crucial.

However, I just read an article recently in Men's Health that form isn't as important as everyone once thought. Especially when considering all of the compound movements (ie: kettlebell workouts) that have become trendy. Something like hammer curls is meant to isolate the bicep, but I understand your reasoning for not wanting to go down in weight.

To each their own, good for you for kicking that *kitten*.

Capt_Apollo

it's different for everyone and for every lift.

i know with my squats, when i'm pushing close to my max, at one point i will kinda lean forward and jerk a little with my back. that is my indicator that i'm as close to failure as possible. that is my last rep because i don't want to mess up my back.

with overhead press, i can sometimes feel one side of the bar go up quicker then the other side. i always finish my last set, even if the last rep or two have bad form.

btw, there is absolutly no shame in asking for a spot in any lift. i always ask for a spot on the bench, usually my last set. no one has ever said no.