When is sacrificing form okay?
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If 9/10 reps are good, cheating 1 a little isn't going to hurt and will probably help you move up to 10/10 at that weight at a later point.0
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I think form is important, not just for safety reasons but because doing weightlifting with control and good alignment involves more than just the "target muscle". When I am doing hammer curls, I think about what is going on in my tailbone and my toes and the lower abdominals, not just the biceps. Too much yoga, I suppose
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As mentioned, good form is important to avoiding injury. It's more critical in this regard for some exercises than others. So we all agree on that. So let's set that aside. From a lifting effort perspective, I personally see no difference between letting a few other muscle groups get involved for the last rep or two and having a spotter step in and help you complete the last rep or two. What it ultimately does is change your isolation exercise into more of a functional or compound motion. So with your hammer curls, you won't be getting as much of an effort out of your biceps because now your shoulders, triceps and torso are all involved too. However the reason you have to resort to this is that your biceps are maxed out and need the assistance, so I don't see where it hurts you any and I can definitely see how stepping down to the next lowest weight might be too low and screw you up too.
The big keys in my opinion are make sure you keep for form as proper as possible for as much of the set as possible. This helps ensure proper isolation of the muscle and less stress on connecting tissues. When you do hit your max and your form starts to suffer be sure that you don't let it get too sloppy where you could potentially injure yourself (throwing your back to heavily into curls for instance can cause a back injury). And finally don't do it for more than one or two reps because beyond that it pretty much becomes a waste of your time.0 -
wth is a hammer curl?0
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wth is a hammer curl?
It's kinda the opposite of *kitten*0 -
Assuming your goal is hypertrophy (muscle gain) than the point of working out is to stimulate your muscle as much as possible. If you are swinging and using momentum than instead of having a constant time under tension to maximize the work your muscles do, you're making your muscles do LESS work. In this case, bad form is stupid and pointless. You're lifting for ego and the number on the bar instead of improving your body. This goes for compound lifts like squats and bench too (if you're quarter squatting you're only cheating yourself).
HOWEVER, if you can do 6 reps and than reps 7-8 you cheat a little and without cheating you would have had to stop at 6 reps than I think it's OK since you're still MAXIMING the work you're doing. But if you can't even do a few reps with good form than you should lower the weight.0 -
I think there is a grey area but I wouldn't encourage bad form even a little bit because most people could really use some improvement there anyway. The primary reason I work with a trainer is to improve my form and there seems to always be room for improvement. Is perfect form critical? I'd say no, given that if you watch elite bodybuilders workout you will see a plenty of bad form on heavy lifts and last reps. But then again, you don't want to stray too far either. Its the old "give people an inch and they'll take a mile" analogy.0
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It really depends on what you are doing.
I come at this from a mostly bodyweight perspective. Once the exercises start getting hard, "perfect form" becomes a bit of a mirage. There is such a thing, but it is a near impossible to achieve ideal. You do the best you can and always try to improve your form. As you get stronger, and you get more and more practiced, your form improves. You will never get to the good form though without spending time working with lesser form. Along the way you will learn that some form breakdown is not only acceptable, but necessary (it is an unavoidable consequence of working hard).
As an example, a one arm pushup. Your first will be utterly atrocious form, this is unavoidable, it is far too complex of a movement and too high of a load to to be truly ready with perfect from from the get go. Not happeneing. Even 6 months later, working continuously, your form will be better, but it will still suck. Things like removing all rotation at the shoulders and hips, removing all upper body twist, and keeping the midsection perfectly straight are near impossible to achieve. The only way you approach this ideal though is by working through lesser form, always striving to improve. However as you work, as you start nearing failure during your set, your form will degrade, and this is perfectly acceptable; it is not unsafe in the least bit and is arguably more productive than the reps done with your very best form.
Even though I'm a guy, I've read NROL4W, one of the big points the author makes is that women have a tendency to so overfocus on perfect form that they don't push themselves very hard (while guys have the opposite problem). In the scale of perceived exertion, once you pass a RPE of 7, to 8 and above, some form breakdown is to be expected. Slow reps and grindy reps won't be perfect form. If you aren't ever doing slow reps or grindy reps, you aren't working hard at all, sticking to recovery level workouts and below.0 -
Another thing to keep in mind when talking about bodybuilders is STEROIDS. If you watch videos of someone like Branch Warren lift his form is ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE and pretty much an example of what NOT TO DO. If the guy wasn't on every perfromance enhancing substance known to man he would probably be in the hospital (and even than he's had many injuries). On the other hand if you watch someone like Jay Cutler his form is impeccable. Don't assume that someone knows what they're doing just cause they have a good physique. If someone has good genetics and is on a lot of steroids they can get away with murder.0
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For me, I'd only count the 8/10 that were good form, and work towards getting the last two. Using proper form is different from essentially cheating yourself out of your workout. If you're meant to be isolating the muscle, then only those reps should count. In NROL, I believe that when he's making reference to proper form being overrated, it's regarding such things as (when tall people are doing squats) not allowing for any extension of your knees past the ankle, for example.0
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PR attempts.0
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Hammer curls are more of an isolation exercise, so I would be more concerned with form, range of motion, and contraction. If I have to reel in the dumbbell like I just hooked a sand-shark, that's a good indication that I'm using too much weight to be effective.0
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Hammer curls are more of an isolation exercise, so I would be more concerned with form, range of motion, and contraction. If I have to reel in the dumbbell like I just hooked a sand-shark, that's a good indication that I'm using too much weight to be effective.
Then again, the negative portion of a curl is arguably more productive than the postive. If you have to cheat a bit to get the weight up on the last couple reps, you are still getting a better workout than if you skip those last couple reps. You can handle more weight in the negative of a lift like a curl than the postive, and can work productively past postive failure/near failure.
The biceps and pulling chain repond well to weight above what you can lift in the positive portion of the lift. Doing negatives is pretty much universally agreed apon as the best way to work up to a chinup.0 -
Argued with my s/o about this today. He noticed the last rep or two of my last set of hammer curls were pretty sloppy. I told him I knew about this but the next weight down wasn't challenging enough, so to me having the last couple of reps be imperfect was worth it to have the rest of my set be challenging and effective.
Anyway we agreed to disagree about that, and ill keep using the weight I have. But it makes for an interesting question- When is sacrificing form acceptable? If ever?
It is, especially an exercise like curls where the chance of injuring yourself is pretty low.
For squats, deadlifts, bench press, I tend to adjust the weight rather than my form. I've only been injured once in 20 years of weightlifting (strained back muscle.)0 -
Form will break down the more tired you get and the heavier you go no matter what. Too many people see no progress because they're stuck on being perfect. Sometimes you need to go really heavy and crank out some reps if you're serious about building strength. But there is a difference between using momentum to help you out and just completely not knowing what proper form is. Because although using momentum and getting into a rhythm, you are technically within range of proper form since you know how to target the muscle you are working out, if that makes any sense, it does to me.
Just know your limits, that's also a big factor.0 -
You will never, ever get me to agree with sacrificing form in any way to go heavier. If you can't do a lift, even a hammer curl (good way to tear a biceps by the way) with proper form, then you should stop the rep before.
Why doesn't sacrificing form for weight work?
2 reasons.
1) poor form means you aren't using the muscles that you are trying to, which means little or no performance gains in the area you are trying to work on, it's counter productive. And please don't say that you're still receiving some benefit, that's not really true, by the time you've reached the point where you cannot do a lift with correct form, you've already reached technical failure and won't receive any further benefit from an exercise (or you never will because you're engaging other muscles and spreading the load to well below fatigue levels). The trick is to recognize this point BEFORE you reach it with good form so you can eliminate or minimize risk of injury. the only way to do this is by knowing your body and paying attention to yourself.
2) Poor form generally means using secondary muscle groups as partial primary movers (also called supporting or stabilizer muscle groups) like the abdominal sheath, the medial gluts and in the case of the biceps the forearm (Brachioradialis muscle). this is bad as these muscles were not designed for heavy load and can easily be strained or even torn. I challenge anyone to find me someone with a degree in sports medicine, kinesiology, or physical therapy that says sacrificing form during weight training for more weight is a good strategy.0 -
A good question to ask is where was your spotter when you weren't using good form? He, or she, should have been there to get you through the last couple reps.
I try to use perfect form with all my lifts, if I feel myself sacrificing form to get another rep then I know I'm using too much weight, or my spotter is not doing her job. I'm not perfect and do slip now and then but I would never risk injury just to get another couple reps in.
The older I get the more I realize how important proper form is. I am seeing too many people that are my age, in their 40's, using bad form, getting hurt and having to take a month or more off to recover. Younger people can bounce back easier, but once you hit your 40's bouncing back from an injury isn't quite as easy.0 -
Form will break down the more tired you get and the heavier you go no matter what. Too many people see no progress because they're stuck on being perfect. Sometimes you need to go really heavy and crank out some reps if you're serious about building strength. But there is a difference between using momentum to help you out and just completely not knowing what proper form is. Because although using momentum and getting into a rhythm, you are technically within range of proper form since you know how to target the muscle you are working out, if that makes any sense, it does to me.
Just know your limits, that's also a big factor.
I agree, but would argue that in doing heavy lifting form is even more important, not less important.
Proper form should not stop you from lifting heavy. Using momentum means you aren't using your muscles, which defeats the purpose, doesn't it?0 -
Form will break down the more tired you get and the heavier you go no matter what. Too many people see no progress because they're stuck on being perfect. Sometimes you need to go really heavy and crank out some reps if you're serious about building strength. But there is a difference between using momentum to help you out and just completely not knowing what proper form is. Because although using momentum and getting into a rhythm, you are technically within range of proper form since you know how to target the muscle you are working out, if that makes any sense, it does to me.
Just know your limits, that's also a big factor.
I agree, but would argue that in doing heavy lifting form is even more important, not less important.
Proper form should not stop you from lifting heavy. Using momentum means you aren't using your muscles, which defeats the purpose, doesn't it?
If you have momentum helping...chances are you aren't lifting heavy. When the weight gets heavy, bar speed declines to the point where I have a hard time seeing how momenum could help.0 -
If you have momentum helping...chances are you aren't lifting heavy. When the weight gets heavy, bar speed declines to the point where I have a hard time seeing how momenum could help.
Depending on the lift. If you're talking about a compound lift like Squats or Deads than you're right. Curls? Very easy to cheat with heavy weight.0 -
You will never, ever get me to agree with sacrificing form in any way to go heavier. If you can't do a lift, even a hammer curl (good way to tear a biceps by the way) with proper form, then you should stop the rep before.
Why doesn't sacrificing form for weight work?
2 reasons.
1) poor form means you aren't using the muscles that you are trying to, which means little or no performance gains in the area you are trying to work on, it's counter productive. And please don't say that you're still receiving some benefit, that's not really true, by the time you've reached the point where you cannot do a lift with correct form, you've already reached technical failure and won't receive any further benefit from an exercise (or you never will because you're engaging other muscles and spreading the load to well below fatigue levels). The trick is to recognize this point BEFORE you reach it with good form so you can eliminate or minimize risk of injury. the only way to do this is by knowing your body and paying attention to yourself.
2) Poor form generally means using secondary muscle groups as partial primary movers (also called supporting or stabilizer muscle groups) like the abdominal sheath, the medial gluts and in the case of the biceps the forearm (Brachioradialis muscle). this is bad as these muscles were not designed for heavy load and can easily be strained or even torn. I challenge anyone to find me someone with a degree in sports medicine, kinesiology, or physical therapy that says sacrificing form during weight training for more weight is a good strategy.
I'm sorry, but sloppy form on the last couple of reps of a hammer curl set is not a good way to tear a biceps, that is just silly talk.
The biceps can handle WAY more weight in the negative portion of a lift than the positve. Muscle tears are going to happen in the negative portion of a bicep lift. Failure in the postive of a bicep lift is still nowhere near dangerous weight levels for the negative portion.
Doing one arm chinup negatives well before you are ready is a good way to tear a bicep. Hammer curls? LOL.0 -
wth is a hammer curl?
It's kinda the opposite of *kitten*
I will never do hammer curls with a straight face again.
There certainly seems to be a pretty wide variety of opinions on this subject!0 -
There certainly seems to be a pretty wide variety of opinions on this subject!
It's because, like so many other topics on these forums... some people talk about the topic from the perspective of what's most ideal, while others simply talk about function.
Ideally, you don't want any form issues, ever, period. In the real world, in the situation you described, it's probably not going to hurt you, and any reduced benefit/effectiveness is going to be minimal.0 -
You will never, ever get me to agree with sacrificing form in any way to go heavier. If you can't do a lift, even a hammer curl (good way to tear a biceps by the way) with proper form, then you should stop the rep before.
Why doesn't sacrificing form for weight work?
2 reasons.
1) poor form means you aren't using the muscles that you are trying to, which means little or no performance gains in the area you are trying to work on, it's counter productive. And please don't say that you're still receiving some benefit, that's not really true, by the time you've reached the point where you cannot do a lift with correct form, you've already reached technical failure and won't receive any further benefit from an exercise (or you never will because you're engaging other muscles and spreading the load to well below fatigue levels). The trick is to recognize this point BEFORE you reach it with good form so you can eliminate or minimize risk of injury. the only way to do this is by knowing your body and paying attention to yourself.
2) Poor form generally means using secondary muscle groups as partial primary movers (also called supporting or stabilizer muscle groups) like the abdominal sheath, the medial gluts and in the case of the biceps the forearm (Brachioradialis muscle). this is bad as these muscles were not designed for heavy load and can easily be strained or even torn. I challenge anyone to find me someone with a degree in sports medicine, kinesiology, or physical therapy that says sacrificing form during weight training for more weight is a good strategy.
I'm sorry, but sloppy form on the last couple of reps of a hammer curl set is not a good way to tear a biceps, that is just silly talk.
The biceps can handle WAY more weight in the negative portion of a lift than the positve. Muscle tears are going to happen in the negative portion of a bicep lift. Failure in the postive of a bicep lift is still nowhere near dangerous weight levels for the negative portion.
Doing one arm chinup negatives well before you are ready is a good way to tear a bicep. Hammer curls? LOL.
I didn't say on the last couple of reps, I said if you can't do a lift without proper form, it's a good way to tear a biceps. I'm not sure why you wouldn't think so, the biceps and biceps tendon can tear at near maximal load just like any muscle and tendon group. Are you saying that you don't think it's possible to tear a triceps with an incorrectly performed curl with heavy weight?0 -
I have to say that I also think there is a certain amount of self-BS and rationalizing when some say "form doesn't matter".
Like I said earlier, there is no cut and dried answer--the results are going to be different for each person, each circumstance, each lift, each goal.
I am skeptical of the claims that doing sloppy lifts on the last couple of reps (and I'm not referring to doing negative lifts) somehow helps push you to the next level. The principle of specificity of training argues that you are just as likely to just make it to a new level of sloppy lifts. It's one thing to work a different move that is off-form but done with a purpose, another to just use momentum or leverage to reach an arbitrary number of reps. Again, that's not a blanket statement because there are plenty of different scenarios. But most of the time when I see guys doing crappy, sloppy reps at the end of a set.....they are just doing crappy, sloppy reps with no benefit.0 -
2) Poor form generally means using secondary muscle groups as partial primary movers (also called supporting or stabilizer muscle groups) like the abdominal sheath, the medial gluts and in the case of the biceps the forearm (Brachioradialis muscle). this is bad as these muscles were not designed for heavy load and can easily be strained or even torn. I challenge anyone to find me someone with a degree in sports medicine, kinesiology, or physical therapy that says sacrificing form during weight training for more weight is a good strategy.
Really? So when you lift a box, couch, table, etc. while moving out of your house you only use your biceps, your forearms, triceps and other muscles have no function in a compound functional lift? News to me.0 -
2) Poor form generally means using secondary muscle groups as partial primary movers (also called supporting or stabilizer muscle groups) like the abdominal sheath, the medial gluts and in the case of the biceps the forearm (Brachioradialis muscle). this is bad as these muscles were not designed for heavy load and can easily be strained or even torn. I challenge anyone to find me someone with a degree in sports medicine, kinesiology, or physical therapy that says sacrificing form during weight training for more weight is a good strategy.
Really? So when you lift a box, couch, table, etc. while moving out of your house you only use your biceps, your forearms, triceps and other muscles have no function in a compound functional lift? News to me.
What? This doesn't even make sense. Please check your work. I was talking about using a maximal load with poor form. If you're asking whether people ever hurt themselves doing every day lifting with poor form? Well yes, they do, all the time. Go ask your orthopedist if he ever had to deal with someone with an acute back injury caused by incorrect lifting. Granted biceps injuries are less common, but that's besides the point. I didn't say anything about compound lifts, I said using muscles that aren't prime movers AS prime movers.0
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