FYI: Detoxes and Cleanses are still junk
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I'm sorry for being curt instead of more clear. My husband has had "elevated enzymes" in his liver for a number of years. (I think his G.I. doctor was the first to mention it and suspected Hepatitis C, but he chose not to get the test at that time.) This continued for several years until he started taking liver pills (primarily milk thistle). After about six months or so, his doctor said whatever he was doing was working because his enzyme levels were normal again after years of being elevated. Milk thistle is the only change that was made. His doctor even said there were studies showing that milk thistle works. It has actually been used for centuries.
I agree that you would have no reason to take it otherwise, but if you have hepatitis or something similar, then it works.
whoa....wait...so, your husband had elevated liver enzymes, the doc mentioned HepC and he never got tested? But self-treated with MIlk Thistle, his numbers improved and everyone's happy? Chronic HepC cannot be cured with milk thistle. I have quite a bit of experience with this. And elevated liver enzymes can be caused by a lot of things, including poor nutrition, medications, other illnesses.
Please don't try to say that chronic HepC can be cured by milk thistle, it is a naturopathic liver support. But if he indeed has HepC, he needs to know and get the proper medical treatment - if he has chronic HepC, that requires a lot of medical intervention! And he could unknowingly pass it onto you, your family, or others. That's a serious thing. I don't understand why he didn't get the test - there's a lot of HepC out there, and it isn't worth guessing. IMO.0 -
There are no published studies that demonstrate milk thistle has a detoxifying effect on the liver. Milk thistle has been studied in patients with alcoholic liver disease, and in patients with hepatitis B or C, and it has not been found to exhibit any meaningful effects.
I'm not great at research on the internet. I learned how to research in the library and have had no need to learn how to find stuff online, but I did find this.
http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(09)02105-2/abstractSilibinin and Related Compounds Are Direct Inhibitors of Hepatitis C Virus RNA-Dependent RNA Polymerase
Conclusions
Silibinin A and silibinin B, as well as Legalon SIL, inhibit HCV replicon and JFH1 replication in cell culture. This effect is at least partly explained by the ability of these compounds to inhibit HCV RNA-dependent RNA polymerase activity. Our results provide a basis for the optimization and subsequent development of members of the Flavonoid family as specific HCV antivirals.
I'm sure AC intended this post to be intended for the "otherwise healthy." But that bit about milk thistle stuck out because that's exactly what worked for my husband. But again, I am referring to a diseased liver, not a healthy one. So carry on.0 -
I'm sorry for being curt instead of more clear. My husband has had "elevated enzymes" in his liver for a number of years. (I think his G.I. doctor was the first to mention it and suspected Hepatitis C, but he chose not to get the test at that time.) This continued for several years until he started taking liver pills (primarily milk thistle). After about six months or so, his doctor said whatever he was doing was working because his enzyme levels were normal again after years of being elevated. Milk thistle is the only change that was made. His doctor even said there were studies showing that milk thistle works. It has actually been used for centuries.
I agree that you would have no reason to take it otherwise, but if you have hepatitis or something similar, then it works.
whoa....wait...so, your husband had elevated liver enzymes, the doc mentioned HepC and he never got tested? But self-treated with MIlk Thistle, his numbers improved and everyone's happy?Chronic HepC cannot be cured with milk thistle. I have quite a bit of experience with this. And elevated liver enzymes can be caused by a lot of things, including poor nutrition, medications, other illnesses.
Please don't try to say that chronic HepC can be cured by milk thistle, it is a naturopathic liver support. But if he indeed has HepC, he needs to know and get the proper medical treatment - if he has chronic HepC, that requires a lot of medical intervention! And he could unknowingly pass it onto you, your family, or others. That's a serious thing.
He chose not to get the test where they cut him open. His G.I. doctor wasn't happy. But yes, his overal health indicators are the best they've ever been. All his blood work over the past several years has been normal. I'm not saying it's a cure, but that whatever was wrong with his liver either isn't posing a problem anymore, or has been inhibited by the milk thistle. His primary doctor has been amazed at his health improvements, but yes, his blood work continues to show him as being "normal" and there has been no advice to see any specialists in several years.0 -
There are no published studies that demonstrate milk thistle has a detoxifying effect on the liver. Milk thistle has been studied in patients with alcoholic liver disease, and in patients with hepatitis B or C, and it has not been found to exhibit any meaningful effects.
I'm not great at research on the internet. I learned how to research in the library and have had no need to learn how to find stuff online, but I did find this.
http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(09)02105-2/abstractSilibinin and Related Compounds Are Direct Inhibitors of Hepatitis C Virus RNA-Dependent RNA Polymerase
Conclusions
Silibinin A and silibinin B, as well as Legalon SIL, inhibit HCV replicon and JFH1 replication in cell culture. This effect is at least partly explained by the ability of these compounds to inhibit HCV RNA-dependent RNA polymerase activity. Our results provide a basis for the optimization and subsequent development of members of the Flavonoid family as specific HCV antivirals.
I'm sure AC intended this post to be intended for the "otherwise healthy." But that bit about milk thistle stuck out because that's exactly what worked for my husband. But again, I am referring to a diseased liver, not a healthy one. So carry on.
what in the world?
Milk thistle's ability to inhibit HCV RNA-dependent RNA polymerase activity has only been used as a model as to what might work when developing anti-virals for treating HCV.
To actually treat HCV, requires not only a year of weekly injections of pharmaceutical anti-virals, but weekly injections of high-dose Interferon (which is a drug used in chemotherapy) and even then the cure is not a guarantee.
edit, can't type0 -
I'm sorry for being curt instead of more clear. My husband has had "elevated enzymes" in his liver for a number of years. (I think his G.I. doctor was the first to mention it and suspected Hepatitis C, but he chose not to get the test at that time.) This continued for several years until he started taking liver pills (primarily milk thistle). After about six months or so, his doctor said whatever he was doing was working because his enzyme levels were normal again after years of being elevated. Milk thistle is the only change that was made. His doctor even said there were studies showing that milk thistle works. It has actually been used for centuries.
I agree that you would have no reason to take it otherwise, but if you have hepatitis or something similar, then it works.
whoa....wait...so, your husband had elevated liver enzymes, the doc mentioned HepC and he never got tested? But self-treated with MIlk Thistle, his numbers improved and everyone's happy?Chronic HepC cannot be cured with milk thistle. I have quite a bit of experience with this. And elevated liver enzymes can be caused by a lot of things, including poor nutrition, medications, other illnesses.
Please don't try to say that chronic HepC can be cured by milk thistle, it is a naturopathic liver support. But if he indeed has HepC, he needs to know and get the proper medical treatment - if he has chronic HepC, that requires a lot of medical intervention! And he could unknowingly pass it onto you, your family, or others. That's a serious thing.
He chose not to get the test where they cut him open. His G.I. doctor wasn't happy. But yes, his overal health indicators are the best they've ever been. All his blood work over the past several years has been normal. I'm not saying it's a cure, but that whatever was wrong with his liver either isn't posing a problem anymore, or has been inhibited by the milk thistle. His primary doctor has been amazed at his health improvements, but yes, his blood work continues to show him as being "normal" and there has been no advice to see any specialists in several years.
There is no "cutting open" test for HCV. It's a blood test. If HCV is found, then a liver biopsy can be performed, but it is not highly invasive, just a needle biopsy.0 -
You know what else really bothers me about the "detox" concept? We are all aware that using laxatives after overindulgent eating to "flush" the food (and relieve associated guilt) is a pretty common behavior associated with bulimia. We also know that the mental part of the eating disorder can follow the repeated, habitual behavior. I fail to see how using "cleanses" is really any different than the bulimic/laxative behavior, except that it's more long-term and more expensive.
I think these companies promoting this junk science are hovering the line of supporting disordered eating behaviors, encouraging people to think that regular eating is somehow poisonous and making you fat, and you can course-correct using laxatives. "Overeat? Have a binge at Burger King? Poison! Need to detox to get 'back on track'! " Sounds a lot like bulimic logic to me.
Agreed.0 -
I did a great cleanse a time or two. I lost inches not weight. Now, I dont pay for cleanses, I do it NATURALLY. Juicing greens is a GREAT detox. I checked out a book from the library and tried some of the recipies and WOW did it "clean me out. No gimmicks, just veggies that naturally help your body get rid of junk. I eat pretty clean though. I try to "detox" every now and again but I'd rather spend "$40-$400 on VEGETABLES (organic ones please) than on man-made processed stuff!0
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There are no published studies that demonstrate milk thistle has a detoxifying effect on the liver. Milk thistle has been studied in patients with alcoholic liver disease, and in patients with hepatitis B or C, and it has not been found to exhibit any meaningful effects.
I'm not great at research on the internet. I learned how to research in the library and have had no need to learn how to find stuff online, but I did find this.
http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(09)02105-2/abstractSilibinin and Related Compounds Are Direct Inhibitors of Hepatitis C Virus RNA-Dependent RNA Polymerase
Conclusions
Silibinin A and silibinin B, as well as Legalon SIL, inhibit HCV replicon and JFH1 replication in cell culture. This effect is at least partly explained by the ability of these compounds to inhibit HCV RNA-dependent RNA polymerase activity. Our results provide a basis for the optimization and subsequent development of members of the Flavonoid family as specific HCV antivirals.
I'm sure AC intended this post to be intended for the "otherwise healthy." But that bit about milk thistle stuck out because that's exactly what worked for my husband. But again, I am referring to a diseased liver, not a healthy one. So carry on.
what in the world?
Milk thistle's ability to inhibit HCV RNA-dependent RNA poymerase activity has only been used as a model as to what might work when developing anti-virals for treating HCV.
To actually trreat HCV, requires not only a year of weekly pharmaceutical anti-virals, but weekly injections of high-dose Interferon (which is a drug used in chemotherapy) and even then the cure is not a guarantee.
No way in HELL he's taking interferon. :noway:
Also I found this: http://thecrohnsdiseasesymptoms.com/liver-symptoms-of-crohns-disease/
Other than Hep C, the suspicion was that the liver issue was brought on by his crohn's. (He also had to get his gall bladder removed.) So we decided that we would wait to see. He has been cut on and sewn up enough. We decided on the supplements and are happy with the decision.0 -
we have a liver and kidneys for detoxifying our bodies. if they stop working, I think I'd be more concerned about blood poisoning and death than weight loss!!
Yes, exactly!
I'm skeptical whenever anyone talks about getting rid of the "toxins" as a weight loss method. A previous co-worker of mine wholeheartedly believes in doing a "cleanse" regularly & basically it sounds like it just gives you the runs for a few days. The only weight loss that results in is water weight...I fail to see how voluntarily dehydrating yourself is healthy
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I did a great cleanse a time or two. I lost inches not weight. Now, I dont pay for cleanses, I do it NATURALLY. Juicing greens is a GREAT detox. I checked out a book from the library and tried some of the recipies and WOW did it "clean me out. No gimmicks, just veggies that naturally help your body get rid of junk. I eat pretty clean though. I try to "detox" every now and again but I'd rather spend "$40-$400 on VEGETABLES (organic ones please) than on man-made processed stuff!
What 'junk' are you trying to get rid of that your body does not already do for you naturally?0 -
<snip>
There is no "cutting open" test for HCV. It's a blood test. If HCV is found, then a liver biopsy can be performed, but it is not highly invasive, just a needle biopsy.
The biopsy was described as an incision. That's what he objected to. I think the doctor was being overly-cautious. It's possible that he never had the virus in the first place. If he did, he must have found the cure because 15 years later, he's better (the best he's ever been) instead of worse.0 -
<snip>
There is no "cutting open" test for HCV. It's a blood test. If HCV is found, then a liver biopsy can be performed, but it is not highly invasive, just a needle biopsy.
The biopsy was described as an incision. That's what he objected to.
Yeah, it may be that his GI used the wrong word. A liver biopsy is an outpatient procedure that he doesn't even have to undress for. They just poke a long needle into the liver to stage the amount of liver damage. If it has gone too far, or if there is Cirrhosis, treatment will not be recommended, as the outcome is not likely to be positive, and it's a $50,000 treatment. So, insurance companies are cautious to treat those with the best chance of recovery. They even try to deny treatment to those who drink alcohol.0 -
<snip>
There is no "cutting open" test for HCV. It's a blood test. If HCV is found, then a liver biopsy can be performed, but it is not highly invasive, just a needle biopsy.
The biopsy was described as an incision. That's what he objected to.
Yeah, it may be that his GI used the wrong word. A liver biopsy is an outpatient procedure that he doesn't even have to undress for. They just poke a long needle into the liver to stage the amount of liver damage. If it has gone too far, or if there is Cirrhosis, treatment will not be recommended, as the outcome is not likely to be positive, and it's a $50,000 treatment. So, insurance companies are cautious to treat those with the best chance of recovery. They even try to deny treatment to those who drink alcohol.
I wasn't at that particular appointment, so I couldn't say. But at this point, we are thinking that it was his Crohn's and not a virus. If it was Hep C, then it would have been from a blood transfusion back in the late 70s, meaning he would have had it for nearly 20 years, but he didn't have problems with his liver until the 90s. And like I said, all his blood work from the last 3 years or so has been stellar. Everything is normal. He continues to take his supplements, just in case.0 -
What about the special snowflakes? It'll still work for them, right?
And unicorns. It still works for us Unicorns.0 -
When my brother did a 'detox' it was more like simple food elimination and he did find that cutting out dairy improved his skin. I'm not saying that detoxes actually detox anything, but some may have positive outcomes nonetheless.0
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oooooooh WendyTerry, don't mess with Songbyrdsweet, she's like a PhD in this stuff.....:laugh:
Hi, Song!
Hahah almost a PhD! :P Three more semesters until I can ask to be called Dr. SongByrd. It is nice to see you are still here.
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oooooooh WendyTerry, don't mess with Songbyrdsweet, she's like a PhD in this stuff.....:laugh:
Hi, Song!
Hahah almost a PhD! :P Three more semesters until I can ask to be called Dr. SongByrd. It is nice to see you are still here.
heh heh....I noes that ducks don't sing.....best I could do...with major apologies to ACG for the HCV and gif highjack:
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Ahhh I love it!! :laugh:0
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oooooooh WendyTerry, don't mess with Songbyrdsweet, she's like a PhD in this stuff.....:laugh:
Hi, Song!
Hahah almost a PhD! :P Three more semesters until I can ask to be called Dr. SongByrd. It is nice to see you are still here.
heh heh....I noes that ducks don't sing.....best I could do...with major apologies to ACG for the HCV and gif highjack:
^ That duck is awesome and belongs in every Dr. Oz or Dr Mercola thread.0 -
I believe in fasting and cleanses, but probably more simple ones. I've really enjoyed them. My friends and colleagues (specifically a prof in my PhD program who taught Eastern thinking & leadership courses plus another PhD candidate who ran a yoga studio) told me that cleanses are part of their regular spiritual and holistic practices. I think we are very culturally biased in our arguments against them and also our desires to market them!
It's called science and critical thinking.
Marry me.0
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