1200, VLCD, and EM2WL

Siege_Tank

I just wanted to take the opportunity to rebut once again all the posts from another thread where I was told, in the face of scientific studies how wrong I was. The people on here who speak to others with such disrespect, who advocate for eating close to or over 2000 calories per day, without any thought to context or personal considerations need to take another look at what they say to people.

helloitsdan personally calculated my numbers for me, based on his calculators and what he uses in his "In place of a road map" post, and told me that I should be eating around 2100 calories for my cut. I'd buy what he says if it wasn't so incredibly far off from what any other calculator, including MFP calculates for me. I saw a nutritionist and had them calculate my cut, and her numbers are within 5% of what MFP is, about 1350 for 1.5 lbs/week... so I would think that something like the difference between 1300 and 2100 is.. statistically significant.

This is what MFP calculates for me:



That's with a pound and a half a week cut. If I set it to 2 lbs, I get to the much maligned and lambasted 1200!

A pound and a half a week is certainly not anything dangerous or drastic. Yet as I try and give hope to so many people who, either because of their job (in my case) or because of injury or because of their lifestyle, HAVE to rely on diet alone to lose weight, I get shouted down as an advocate for eating disorders, someone who is eating at dangerously low levels, someone who is encouraging "bad" or "unhealthy" habits.

If you want to argue about eating more to weigh less, try doing it on your own site, one who's caloric recommendations are closer to your levels, instead of railing away at THIS website's own advice and calculations. I will continue to tell people who are overweight to eat less, and in the same way I will continue to tell people who are underweight to eat more. Telling people who are overweight and obese to eat more when they aren't hungry is downright shameful.

DanaDark

1.5 pounds a week loss when you have only about 34 pounds left to lose is quite extreme. You are definitely eating under your BMR.

Given MFP's recommendation of 1350, that means your TDEE is 2100 with NO exercise at all.

MFP is a simple tool. It does NOT take any "context or personal considerations" as you so verbally desire.

Instead, you decided a persons PERSONAL attention to you is insuficient, and instead you'd prefer to go by a simple calculator that does not account for BMR, exercise level/type, or proper nutritional guidelines in relation to both weight loss and fitness.

If you do not want to take personalized advice, then don't. But seriously, don't be a JERK as you are being now, and publicly rail against someone that offered sincere, reasonable advice.

Siege_Tank

I'll go backwards, I was part of the EM2WL group and I saw post after post after post of "I'm gaining" or "this isn't working". I'm only railing against his and his follower's use of extreme language, an inability to see people as special and specific and unique, and their use of their own internet calculators which tend to over calculate needs. They frequently intimidate and ridicule people who eat what MFP recommends...

And I ask, how is that acceptable language or behavior in a forum, on a website that is supposed to be uplifting and supportive? I eventually paid for a session with a nutritionist, and with my workouts and calorie cuts, her numbers got close to matching up with MFP. So when I offer advice to people in other posts telling them not to eat when they aren't hungry, I'm kinda not saying anything specific. When I cite studies showing that eating more causes weight gain, and eating less causes weight loss, I am accused of trying to "justify" my own unhealthy habits.

Most of the sucessful people in that group are already close to lean. They need to leave others alone, others who are going by this website's own calculations.

And I ask, what is wrong with eating under my BMR, if what I am eating is nutritious and I have vitamins and supplements in my diet?

onyxgirl17

I doubt Dan calculated you to lose 1.5 lbs a week, and with so little to lose I don't think it's healthy either to set your calories that low. You would probably lose significant lean body mass.

I also agree with DanaDark, don't be a jerk when someone gives you good advice.

What was the point of this topic again?

geekyjock76

1. Dan does not put people in the sedentary category - at minimum he suggests lightly active. Thus you are creating a bias between the two predictions.
2. Dan would not recommend a highly aggressive 1.5 lb per week deficit at your weight and goal weight - he'd place you at 1.0 lb per week instead. Yet again, you are establishing another bias.

Add those two distinctions, and you'll get significantly different predictions.

danasings

Dude...go ahead and eat 1350 calories a day, and stop asking knowledgeable people for help then telling them they are wrong. You obviously think you know what works for you, so drop it already. I know I sound snarky, but c'mon...do you have a point other than "you're all wrong about me"? Do what you gotta do. Good luck.

CassieReannan

You're working out 6 days a week and are sedendary? :huh: right.....

Honestly how long do you think it takes for your body to get back to normal afer under feeding it for so long? EM2WL actually works, I am doing it currently. 1.5lb a week would be great but lets face it, it's unrealistic for you. Would you rather be healthy? Or just looking for a quick weight loss fix?

DanaDark

And I ask, what is wrong with eating under my BMR, if what I am eating is nutritious and I have vitamins and supplements in my diet?

Eating under BMR for prolonged periods can, and usually does, result in slow build up of cortisol hormone. As this hormone builds up, your organs operate slower than normal, this reduces the amount of energy you expend in a day. It is part of the fight or flight response in which your body determines that certain activities should be temporarily suspended in order to ensure you can survive an immediate threat. It is not a system that we are meant to remain in for prolonged periods.

This is what ultimately causes people to plateau that have been eating under BMR for too long. Note that a few days or a week or two of this is fine. After a few months is when things start slowing down.

The way MFP itself works is it goes SOLELY by numbers. It ignores ALL hormones. The 1200 bottom is hard coded in. It is a "dumb tool". It is useful yes and a great starting point for many, but it is only as smart as the person using it.

Dan typically argues that you should eat UNDER TDEE and OVER BMR. This ensures you'll always be losing weight and also ensures your body's hormone levels do not freak out over excessive stress and too fast of weight loss. It is indeed slower than what most people want, but it is safe, sane, doable, and offers better long term success than crash diets.

EVERYONE here wants everyone else to succeed.

You are free to do whatever you want. Heck, you can stop eating forever and run 23 hours a day at 12mph on the treadmill if you want to. All I ask is that when someone gives you advice, reasonable advice, that you don't make threads basically to declare how stupid, dumb, rude, etc. you think they are.

CassieReannan

And I ask, what is wrong with eating under my BMR, if what I am eating is nutritious and I have vitamins and supplements in my diet?

Eating under BMR for prolonged periods can, and usually does, result in slow build up of cortisol hormone. As this hormone builds up, your organs operate slower than normal, this reduces the amount of energy you expend in a day. It is part of the fight or flight response in which your body determines that certain activities should be temporarily suspended in order to ensure you can survive an immediate threat. It is not a system that we are meant to remain in for prolonged periods.

This is what ultimately causes people to plateau that have been eating under BMR for too long. Note that a few days or a week or two of this is fine. After a few months is when things start slowing down.

The way MFP itself works is it goes SOLELY by numbers. It ignores ALL hormones. The 1200 bottom is hard coded in. It is a "dumb tool". It is useful yes and a great starting point for many, but it is only as smart as the person using it.

Dan typically argues that you should eat UNDER TDEE and OVER BMR. This ensures you'll always be losing weight and also ensures your body's hormone levels do not freak out over excessive stress and too fast of weight loss. It is indeed slower than what most people want, but it is safe, sane, doable, and offers better long term success than crash diets.

EVERYONE here wants everyone else to succeed.

You are free to do whatever you want. Heck, you can stop eating forever and run 23 hours a day at 12mph on the treadmill if you want to. All I ask is that when someone gives you advice, reasonable advice, that you don't make threads basically to declare how stupid, dumb, rude, etc. you think they are.

+1!

eyeshuh

And I ask, what is wrong with eating under my BMR, if what I am eating is nutritious and I have vitamins and supplements in my diet?

Eating under BMR for prolonged periods can, and usually does, result in slow build up of cortisol hormone. As this hormone builds up, your organs operate slower than normal, this reduces the amount of energy you expend in a day. It is part of the fight or flight response in which your body determines that certain activities should be temporarily suspended in order to ensure you can survive an immediate threat. It is not a system that we are meant to remain in for prolonged periods.

This is what ultimately causes people to plateau that have been eating under BMR for too long. Note that a few days or a week or two of this is fine. After a few months is when things start slowing down.

The way MFP itself works is it goes SOLELY by numbers. It ignores ALL hormones. The 1200 bottom is hard coded in. It is a "dumb tool". It is useful yes and a great starting point for many, but it is only as smart as the person using it.

Dan typically argues that you should eat UNDER TDEE and OVER BMR. This ensures you'll always be losing weight and also ensures your body's hormone levels do not freak out over excessive stress and too fast of weight loss. It is indeed slower than what most people want, but it is safe, sane, doable, and offers better long term success than crash diets.

EVERYONE here wants everyone else to succeed.

You are free to do whatever you want. Heck, you can stop eating forever and run 23 hours a day at 12mph on the treadmill if you want to. All I ask is that when someone gives you advice, reasonable advice, that you don't make threads basically to declare how stupid, dumb, rude, etc. you think they are.

+1 billion

PikaKnight

And I ask, what is wrong with eating under my BMR, if what I am eating is nutritious and I have vitamins and supplements in my diet?

Eating under BMR for prolonged periods can, and usually does, result in slow build up of cortisol hormone. As this hormone builds up, your organs operate slower than normal, this reduces the amount of energy you expend in a day. It is part of the fight or flight response in which your body determines that certain activities should be temporarily suspended in order to ensure you can survive an immediate threat. It is not a system that we are meant to remain in for prolonged periods.

This is what ultimately causes people to plateau that have been eating under BMR for too long. Note that a few days or a week or two of this is fine. After a few months is when things start slowing down.

The way MFP itself works is it goes SOLELY by numbers. It ignores ALL hormones. The 1200 bottom is hard coded in. It is a "dumb tool". It is useful yes and a great starting point for many, but it is only as smart as the person using it.

Dan typically argues that you should eat UNDER TDEE and OVER BMR. This ensures you'll always be losing weight and also ensures your body's hormone levels do not freak out over excessive stress and too fast of weight loss. It is indeed slower than what most people want, but it is safe, sane, doable, and offers better long term success than crash diets.

EVERYONE here wants everyone else to succeed.

You are free to do whatever you want. Heck, you can stop eating forever and run 23 hours a day at 12mph on the treadmill if you want to. All I ask is that when someone gives you advice, reasonable advice, that you don't make threads basically to declare how stupid, dumb, rude, etc. you think they are.

QFT

mustgetmuscles1

And I ask, what is wrong with eating under my BMR, if what I am eating is nutritious and I have vitamins and supplements in my diet?

Eating under BMR for prolonged periods can, and usually does, result in slow build up of cortisol hormone. As this hormone builds up, your organs operate slower than normal, this reduces the amount of energy you expend in a day. It is part of the fight or flight response in which your body determines that certain activities should be temporarily suspended in order to ensure you can survive an immediate threat. It is not a system that we are meant to remain in for prolonged periods.

This is what ultimately causes people to plateau that have been eating under BMR for too long. Note that a few days or a week or two of this is fine. After a few months is when things start slowing down.

The way MFP itself works is it goes SOLELY by numbers. It ignores ALL hormones. The 1200 bottom is hard coded in. It is a "dumb tool". It is useful yes and a great starting point for many, but it is only as smart as the person using it.

Dan typically argues that you should eat UNDER TDEE and OVER BMR. This ensures you'll always be losing weight and also ensures your body's hormone levels do not freak out over excessive stress and too fast of weight loss. It is indeed slower than what most people want, but it is safe, sane, doable, and offers better long term success than crash diets.

EVERYONE here wants everyone else to succeed.

You are free to do whatever you want. Heck, you can stop eating forever and run 23 hours a day at 12mph on the treadmill if you want to. All I ask is that when someone gives you advice, reasonable advice, that you don't make threads basically to declare how stupid, dumb, rude, etc. you think they are.

You sir, make too much sense.

Siege_Tank

Yeah, he did, he calculated my BMR, and my TDEE, and took 15% off of that, and told me to eat 2100. And I gained. For a month. He didn't say he wanted a 1.5 lb/wk cut, I said that.

I'm not going to be eating like this forever! I long for the days when I reach my goal weight, and can maintain at what a majority of the calorie calculators out there say - somewhere in the neighborhood of 2100-2200.

I'm also a huge advocate for intermittent fasting =0 I think the peer reviewed studies cited by Leangains and other fitness professionals are spot on. Flame away.

Do you really think that people who look amazing in Hollywood gain and lose weight for respective roles do so by being outside of the super safe, super healthy +/- 15% TDEE? of course not. Eating below a calorie level for a time is perfectly natural, safe, and proven through centuries of famine and plenty. If I believed what some people on here advocated, I'd believe that everyone in the modeling business and Hollywood were on death's door, that celebrities drop like flies left and right.

My problem is with the cult like atmosphere and blind dedication that some people in some groups on here have to an idea, a theory not backed by anything other than other forum users' undocumented, unproven "experience" and "what they have seen"

If I have found what works for me, and you have found what works for you, why am I the one who should be quiet and drop it? Don't I have a voice too? What right does anyone have to tell anyone else to be quiet? Just because I don't think like you do doesn't mean that I should keep what I have learned to myself.

It certainly doesn't stop you from sharing what YOU "know". I think it has more to do with you being pissed off that I have the willpower and self determination to get to my goals, while so many people on here cannot make themselves UN-eat what they have eaten themselves into.

If you can eat +500 calories per day for years to get where you were at this weight, then you can for sure NOT eat that much and be just fine. I will not let people walk all over me, question my character, or insult me simply because I don't conform to the ways of thinking of the loudest group.

PikaKnight

Yeah, he did, he calculated my BMR, and my TDEE, and took 15% off of that, and told me to eat 2100. And I gained. For a month. He didn't say he wanted a 1.5 lb/wk cut, I said that.

I'm not going to be eating like this forever! I long for the days when I reach my goal weight, and can maintain at what a majority of the calorie calculators out there say - somewhere in the neighborhood of 2100-2200.

I'm also a huge advocate for intermittent fasting =0 I think the peer reviewed studies cited by Leangains and other fitness professionals are spot on. Flame away.

Do you really think that people who look amazing in Hollywood gain and lose weight for respective roles do so by being outside of the super safe, super healthy +/- 15% TDEE? of course not. Eating below a calorie level for a time is perfectly natural, safe, and proven through centuries of famine and plenty. If I believed what some people on here advocated, I'd believe that everyone in the modeling business and Hollywood were on death's door, that celebrities drop like flies left and right.

My problem is with the cult like atmosphere and blind dedication that some people in some groups on here have to an idea, a theory not backed by anything other than other forum users' undocumented, unproven "experience" and "what they have seen"

If I have found what works for me, and you have found what works for you, why am I the one who should be quiet and drop it? Don't I have a voice too? What right does anyone have to tell anyone else to be quiet? Just because I don't think like you do doesn't mean that I should keep what I have learned to myself.

It certainly doesn't stop you from sharing what YOU "know". I think it has more to do with you being pissed off that I have the willpower and self determination to get to my goals, while so many people on here cannot make themselves UN-eat what they have eaten themselves into.

If you can eat +500 calories per day for years to get where you were at this weight, then you can for sure NOT eat that much and be just fine. I will not let people walk all over me, question my character, or insult me simply because I don't conform to the ways of thinking of the loudest group.

Again..do what you want. But don't create a post trying to shame someone who was just trying to help you. Also - actors/actresses will also tell/admit that some of the methods they've used weren't the safest and also not something they'd recommend...while others (who save up or can afford it) hire trainers and nutritionists, as well as get regular checks with their doctors to make sure they aren't screwing themselves. And before you try to shoot back with, "how do you know"...I "do" know..but not going into details.

And I (along with many here) aren't "conforming" to anything. We've seen results and that's why we'll suggest Helloitdan's methods.

once again, though...you need to stop trying to put someone down. You say you told them this, that, etc - then you need to discuss it with Helloitsdan. Maybe there was a miscommunication, etc.

AND, as people pointed - you aren't sedentary (unless you literally are laying about bed all day and don't walk, etc) - so trying to say well someone was wrong when you didn't pick the correct settings is misguiding.

To note, MFP also doesn't include exercise calories - they expect you to eat them back..which is why their #s differ from other sites that calculate TDEE.

PikaKnight

To add - I find it odd that you said you told Helloitsdan about you wanting to lose 1.5lbs...because he doesn't go by weekly loss..he goes by the information provided on the tool calculations - which you can do yourself. He gives you the links to the tool and a walk through. Did you figure out the #s with this tool? No, because if you did, you'd see that it gives you your TDEE based on eating below your BMR, but under your TDEE at the appropriate activity level.

ETA: One more thing - did you even try this at all or did you just get your numbers and decide to throw a tantrum because you don't like change? Or maybe it offended you that maybe you were doing something incorrectly?

I looked at your diary..aside from today, you last logged around 12/27. And a few days from what I saw before 12/27 ranged from 872-1600 calories.

Siege_Tank

I'm not putting him down, or attacking his character, I never ONCE used the words stupid, dumb, rude, or even a veiled insult like inconsiderate to describe dan. He was genuinely trying to help. I am simply stating that, in some cases, he is wrong. Which is, when you think about it, even a healthy thing! Accepting the spoken word as fact usually leads to the greatest falsehoods man has ever believed.

1. It didn't work, and members of his camp don't post any studies of any kind, even bad studies, showing where their ideas have merit or evidence or proof, yet they ridicule and belittle anyone who eats less than them.

2. Study after study DOES show that an HONEST look at calories consumed paired with minutes of exercise = more calories cut, more weight lost. studies from 1940 to today all show the same thing. (I'd post them, and links to them, but I've already done that once and had the thread locked for "promoting" eating disorders)

3. Trying to twist the meaning and intent of my words to show as evidence that I was trying to shame someone, or a particular group, is the exact reason why I am posting these. What the hell do you care who I am and why I am posting? And why are you trying to pass off something that is false as fact? Most of what the posters in this thread have said that I have said.. I have not said. If that makes sense. You're putting words in my mouth.

How do you know what my activity level is? For the last week I've been at home taking care of my son. I work from home too, so I haven't gotten the motivation to work out. Before that I was sick with the same flu, and before that was the holidays. I've lost 6 pounds since mid December, and all while eating around what MFP recommends. But please, don't take my word for it.

eyeshuh

EDIT: Never mind. I am getting out of this thread. I have helped a lot of people today, I don't need to convince this one person of anything.

PikaKnight

I'm not putting him down, or attacking his character, I never ONCE used the words stupid, dumb, rude, or even a veiled insult like inconsiderate to describe dan. He was genuinely trying to help. I am simply stating that, in some cases, he is wrong. Which is, when you think about it, even a healthy thing! Accepting the spoken word as fact usually leads to the greatest falsehoods man has ever believed.

1. It didn't work, and members of his camp don't post any studies of any kind, even bad studies, showing where their ideas have merit or evidence or proof, yet they ridicule and belittle anyone who eats less than them.

2. Study after study DOES show that an HONEST look at calories consumed paired with minutes of exercise = more calories cut, more weight lost. studies from 1940 to today all show the same thing. (I'd post them, and links to them, but I've already done that once and had the thread locked for "promoting" eating disorders)

3. Trying to twist the meaning and intent of my words to show as evidence that I was trying to shame someone, or a particular group, is the exact reason why I am posting these. What the hell do you care who I am and why I am posting? And why are you trying to pass off something that is false as fact? Most of what the posters in this thread have said that I have said.. I have not said. If that makes sense. You're putting words in my mouth.

How do you know what my activity level is? For the last week I've been at home taking care of my son. I work from home too, so I haven't gotten the motivation to work out. Before that I was sick with the same flu, and before that was the holidays. I've lost 6 pounds since mid December, and all while eating around what MFP recommends. But please, don't take my word for it.

So you didn't even try this for 3-4 weeks? (I say 3-4 weeks because it takes 2-3 weeks for your body to adjust).

Look, if you don't want to do something, don't. And unless you can provide scientific proof or your own experiences in something not working, then coming on here just makes you look like you are just upset and want to rant to be honest.

There are many that have posted their success with this program (and not just some short term success either). So are you saying all of them are wrong?

Are you saying I'm wrong that I've lost weight and continue to lose weight doing this?

PikaKnight

EDIT: Never mind. I am getting out of this thread. I have helped a lot of people today, I don't need to convince this one person of anything.

Yes, you are right. I'm out of this thread as well. The people that post their success more than speaks for the credibility of eating under your TDEE but above your BMR.

Best of luck OP. :flowerforyou:

Siege_Tank

To add - I find it odd that you said you told Helloitsdan about you wanting to lose 1.5lbs...because he doesn't go by weekly loss..he goes by the information provided on the tool calculations - which you can do yourself. He gives you the links to the tool and a walk through. Did you figure out the #s with this tool? No, because if you did, you'd see that it gives you your TDEE based on eating below your BMR, but under your TDEE at the appropriate activity level.

ETA: One more thing - did you even try this at all or did you just get your numbers and decide to throw a tantrum because you don't like change? Or maybe it offended you that maybe you were doing something incorrectly?

I looked at your diary..aside from today, you last logged around 12/27. And a few days from what I saw before 12/27 ranged from 872-1600 calories.

Are you even reading what I am posting? I tried it his way for a month. He didn't say a 1.5 lb/wk loss, that was MY goal, he told me to eat around 2100, and I gained about ten pounds before I tossed it overboard. By thanksgiving I was back to -30 lbs from where I started.

I didn't log because I wanted to take a break from it while I was sick and eating nothing for a few days, then eating sporadically because of how I felt, and today I logged what I ate because I wanted to.

And yeah, on average I was eating anywhere between those two numbers. 1600 were days where I would lift heavy and get ravenous afterwards. 1000 were days where I felt exceptionally motivated to lose.

sweebum

And I ask, what is wrong with eating under my BMR, if what I am eating is nutritious and I have vitamins and supplements in my diet?

Eating under BMR for prolonged periods can, and usually does, result in slow build up of cortisol hormone. As this hormone builds up, your organs operate slower than normal, this reduces the amount of energy you expend in a day. It is part of the fight or flight response in which your body determines that certain activities should be temporarily suspended in order to ensure you can survive an immediate threat. It is not a system that we are meant to remain in for prolonged periods.

This is what ultimately causes people to plateau that have been eating under BMR for too long. Note that a few days or a week or two of this is fine. After a few months is when things start slowing down.

The way MFP itself works is it goes SOLELY by numbers. It ignores ALL hormones. The 1200 bottom is hard coded in. It is a "dumb tool". It is useful yes and a great starting point for many, but it is only as smart as the person using it.

Dan typically argues that you should eat UNDER TDEE and OVER BMR. This ensures you'll always be losing weight and also ensures your body's hormone levels do not freak out over excessive stress and too fast of weight loss. It is indeed slower than what most people want, but it is safe, sane, doable, and offers better long term success than crash diets.

EVERYONE here wants everyone else to succeed.

You are free to do whatever you want. Heck, you can stop eating forever and run 23 hours a day at 12mph on the treadmill if you want to. All I ask is that when someone gives you advice, reasonable advice, that you don't make threads basically to declare how stupid, dumb, rude, etc. you think they are.

This. And this again. Repeat.:flowerforyou: