working on a new lifting routine - thoughts?

jacksonpt

First, my goals: Pretty basic... to get a little stronger and to look a little better. With race season coming I'm not looking to put on any weight at this point. I'm eating at a slight deficit right now, and probably will continue to through the spring.

OK. the last few months my routine has been pretty stronglifts-ish, though I've gotten a bit lazy with it for a variety of reasons (some valid reasons, some just stupid excuses). Regardless, I'm looking to change things up. I want a bit more intensity from each session (i.e. more than 3 or 4 lifts), and I want a bit more recovery time in between body parts. Here's what I'm looking at:

Day 1: back and bis
- Weighted pull-ups
- Lat bar pull-downs
- T-bar rows
- Barbell rows
- EZ bar curls

Day 2: cardio/mobility/rest

Day 3: Chest and tris
- Incline bench
- Decline bench
- Dumbbell flys
- Overhead press
- Dips
- Skullcrushers

Day 4: cardio/mobility/rest

Day 5: Legs and core
- Squats
- Leg press
- Calf raise
- Deadlift
- Leg curls
- Leg raises
- Cable crunches
- Hyperextensions

Day 6: cardio/mobility/rest

Day 7: cardio/mobility/rest


I've done a routine similar to this when bulking and felt really good with it. Anyone see any glaring problems with it, or should I dive into it and see how it feels?

Grandmasboy2852

I would get 1 -2 more exercises for your shoulders in their somewhere ( assuming your healthy enough to do so... I know more than a few people have injuries that prevent them from doing most shoulder exercises).

FullOfWin

I wouldn't do a 3 day bro split.

I would do deadlifts on back day

I would do sldl instead of leg curls

I wouldn't do leg extensions

I wouldn't do lat pulldowns when already doing pullups

I would do chest flies on a cable tower

I would do more shoulders

I would do lunges instead of leg press

I wouldn't try to increase instensity by adding things I don't need

I wouldn't try to program for myself when I don't know how

I'll follow this with the more brutal post from JUSA at bb.com forums

Prologue: I remember years ago when I first started working out and posting here I went out and put together a program all on my own. I thought it through very thoroughly and was very proud of myself when I'd finished. I made a new thread about it and asked for people to critique it in the title. I expected for the most part people would approve of it and might offer tiny suggestions to improve on it.

What I got was people telling me it was awful and I needed to scrap it completely and pick up a pre-made program which was created by someone who was an expert in the weightlifting/strength training or bodybuilding field.

I was upset and annoyed at the time, however it was sound advice. They were right. My program sucked, I did not know what I was doing and if I'd followed it I wouldn't have made any significant long-term gains.

Ask yourself this: Do you know more than Mark Rippetoe, Bill Starr or anyone who has studied strength and hypertrophy training for years and has had countless more years of empirical evidence to refine their knowledge on how to make progress in the gym? (The answer is, of course, "no").

Then why would you use some program you've made over one of theirs?

Why your program is terrible:
1) You've probably designed your program with way too many exercises and way too much volume for a beginner.
- Your program should consist primarily of the following exercises: the squat, the bench press, the deadlift, heavy rows and plenty of core work.
- You do not need endless sets of isolation work right now. You need to focus on compound movements and work on getting a solid base/frame.
- Right now you need to focus on correct form. Master squatting, benching and deadlifting. It's not easy. Odds are you're doing a terrible job on at least two of those exercises. Get a trainer, preferably one who looks like they lift and who has a background in powerlifting, and have them coach you on these essential lifts.

2) You've probably designed your program with way too much emphasis on mirror muscles and not enough on others.
- A good program will have at least as much focus, if not considerably more, on one's back than on one's pecs. Often you see people making programs which have several different benching variations (incline, decline, dumbells, etc), dumbell flies, cable crosses, etc... and then when it's time for back day they do some lat pulldowns and maybe some other fairly useless exercise. This can lead to muscle imbalances which later down the road will mess you and your rotator cuff up. You don't want that. Back in the day when lifters spend tons of time on their back doing rows, pullups, face pulls, deadlifts and other exercises and had strong backs -- nobody had RC problems.
- You're probably neglecting your legs, but this isn't always the case with newbies making programs.

3) You've probably designed your program and left out tons of crucial information.
- What are your goals? Strength? Hypertrophy? General fitness? What is your program supposed to do?
- What is your level of fitness? While it's usually "beginner", often times people don't even bother to say. An advanced lifter will have a drastically different routine than a beginner. Often times beginners don't realize this and they try to emulate a program designed for someone who has been lifting for years. Small muscles, like yours, don't need nearly as much stimulation to shock them into growth. If you overdo it, you'll just burn yourself out and get nowhere.
- Sometimes you see truly awful programs which just toss out a number of exercises and don't bother to elaborate and then they expect someone to critique it. Other times you get a little more. I've yet to see someone incorporate rest times or tempo into their home-made programs, despite it being important stuff. The answer is because you probably don't understand it, which is precisely why you shouldn't be making your own program to begin with.

4) Lastly, we see ****ty programs like yours every day. Often multiple. Frankly, it's tiresome. Please, read the stickies and pick a program which will work from there. There is a saying that "Anything will work... for about 6 weeks", which is probably true. You might see minor progress with whatever terrible program you've made but in time you will stall out and you will not make much, if any, progress. Think long-term, drop your ego and realize there are people out there who dedicate their lives to this and they know more than you. Find a program which suits your level of fitness and your goals. Use it.

5) Here are some excellent programs which I hope you consider looking into:

- Rippetoes aka Starting Strength: I can personally attest to this program being superb. It's designed for any novice or beginner lifter but also for more experienced lifters who might not be used to a program consisting of heavy, compound movements. This will get you strong and if your diet is in order you will get bigger.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224

- Bill Starr 5x5 aka Madcow 5x5: I love this one. It's for an intermediate lifter and the focus of this program is to get you strong as quickly as possible. And it works.
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow...Linear_5x5.htm

- HST (Hypertrophy/Strength Training): I haven't personally lifted in this style but plenty of people swear by it. This should work well for someone looking for gains in both strength and hypertrophy (ie. getting both strong and bigger muscles).
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=280813
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=714401

- German Volume Training: I've ran this and even having lifted for years before I ran it I was sore as a dog after pretty much every workout. DOMS doesn't necessarily mean it's working, but this is a pretty rough ride. GVT is designed to primarily make you bigger (hypertrophy).
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/luis13.htm

- There are PLENTY of other programs. Here is a guide here, one of the stickies you SHOULD have already read...
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=113707701

- You should also venture out into the other sections, the Nutrition and Exercise ones especially (not so much the misc, you're better off not going there). I can promise you that you're going to learn a lot and help your progress if you do.

ArroganceInStep

Can you expand on what you mean by more intensity?

If you mean really blasting a muscle group when you go in, a lot of that has to do with number of sets and the rep ranges you choose. Doing some hypertrophy work or a few ultrahigh rep sets may assist with that.

If it means being able to push yourself harder throughout the workout it's arguable that hitting varying muscle groups (i.e. supersetting pressing moves with pulling ones) will better facilitate that.

If it's keeping you interested and preventing the workout from getting stale, you might want to look into alternating workouts. An example would be with your leg day, doing a regular squat (heavy) and SLDL (lighter) one week, and then a regular deadlift (heavy) and front squat (lighter) the next.

And some questions:
Why decline and not flat bench?
Why do you do your deadlifts after both leg press and calf raise?
Can you do close grip bench? Does it hurt your shoulder?
Can you do shrugs?

jacksonpt

I would get 1 -2 more exercises for your shoulders in their somewhere ( assuming your healthy enough to do so... I know more than a few people have injuries that prevent them from doing most shoulder exercises).

I am working through a shoulder injury, so while I'm not trying to let it be an excuse anymore, I do need to be careful with it.

jayche

A lot of exercises per day, I would drop some exercises (like 1-2 of them) and add more sets to the ones remaining (wouldn't do more than 16 sets for a muscle group on any given day though, hell even 12 is enough). This will help keep workout intensity high instead of walking around the gym setting up new exercises to do. I'd never recommend deadlifts and squats on the same day, unless you plan on the stiff-legged variant with lighter weight, but then again I don't do deadlifts on leg day (well I used to, I just put it on back day to avoid the overlap with squats, doing them on either day would be fine though, although I'd recommend you look up free-weight hack squats if you want to do deadlifts on leg day, it's easier on your lower back and absolutely badass for quads).

Calf raise before Deadlift looks kinda funny.

FullOfWin

If you want to do more than the standard SS\SL routine, you could try the one linked below. Also note that you aren;t going to keep gaining strength forever without gaining weight.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=148036063

jacksonpt

I wouldn't do a 3 day bro split.

why?

I would do deadlifts on back day

Yea, I thought about that and was left basically undecided. Figured I'd go by feel the first few weeks and see where it felt like ti fit the best.

I would do sldl instead of leg curls

I'm specifically trying to target the hamstrings, and balance is an issue. Leg curls, I think, would be a more effective exercise for me, no?

I wouldn't do leg extensions

I'm not doing leg extensions

I wouldn't do lat pulldowns when already doing pullups

I wondered about that (similarly with different variations of rows), but pull-downs hit my lats much harder than pull-ups.

I would do chest flies on a cable tower

I can do that. Any reason?

I would do more shoulders

I'm working through an injury right now, and frankly, shoulders are a fairly low priority for me given my other needs/goals.

I would do lunges instead of leg press

Even with squats in the routine? I was looking to target my quads specifically.

I wouldn't try to increase instensity by adding things I don't need

isn't "need" based on goals?

I wouldn't try to program for myself when I don't know how

I can see the validity in that. But I'll take a routine that might be slighly less "efficient" over a routine I have no interest in doing and thus can't/won't stick with.

I'll follow this with the more brutal post from JUSA at bb.com forums

Prologue: I remember years ago when I first started working out and posting here I went out and put together a program all on my own. I thought it through very thoroughly and was very proud of myself when I'd finished. I made a new thread about it and asked for people to critique it in the title. I expected for the most part people would approve of it and might offer tiny suggestions to improve on it.

What I got was people telling me it was awful and I needed to scrap it completely and pick up a pre-made program which was created by someone who was an expert in the weightlifting/strength training or bodybuilding field.

I was upset and annoyed at the time, however it was sound advice. They were right. My program sucked, I did not know what I was doing and if I'd followed it I wouldn't have made any significant long-term gains.

Ask yourself this: Do you know more than Mark Rippetoe, Bill Starr or anyone who has studied strength and hypertrophy training for years and has had countless more years of empirical evidence to refine their knowledge on how to make progress in the gym? (The answer is, of course, "no").

Then why would you use some program you've made over one of theirs?

Why your program is terrible:
1) You've probably designed your program with way too many exercises and way too much volume for a beginner.
- Your program should consist primarily of the following exercises: the squat, the bench press, the deadlift, heavy rows and plenty of core work.
- You do not need endless sets of isolation work right now. You need to focus on compound movements and work on getting a solid base/frame.
- Right now you need to focus on correct form. Master squatting, benching and deadlifting. It's not easy. Odds are you're doing a terrible job on at least two of those exercises. Get a trainer, preferably one who looks like they lift and who has a background in powerlifting, and have them coach you on these essential lifts.

2) You've probably designed your program with way too much emphasis on mirror muscles and not enough on others.
- A good program will have at least as much focus, if not considerably more, on one's back than on one's pecs. Often you see people making programs which have several different benching variations (incline, decline, dumbells, etc), dumbell flies, cable crosses, etc... and then when it's time for back day they do some lat pulldowns and maybe some other fairly useless exercise. This can lead to muscle imbalances which later down the road will mess you and your rotator cuff up. You don't want that. Back in the day when lifters spend tons of time on their back doing rows, pullups, face pulls, deadlifts and other exercises and had strong backs -- nobody had RC problems.
- You're probably neglecting your legs, but this isn't always the case with newbies making programs.

3) You've probably designed your program and left out tons of crucial information.
- What are your goals? Strength? Hypertrophy? General fitness? What is your program supposed to do?
- What is your level of fitness? While it's usually "beginner", often times people don't even bother to say. An advanced lifter will have a drastically different routine than a beginner. Often times beginners don't realize this and they try to emulate a program designed for someone who has been lifting for years. Small muscles, like yours, don't need nearly as much stimulation to shock them into growth. If you overdo it, you'll just burn yourself out and get nowhere.
- Sometimes you see truly awful programs which just toss out a number of exercises and don't bother to elaborate and then they expect someone to critique it. Other times you get a little more. I've yet to see someone incorporate rest times or tempo into their home-made programs, despite it being important stuff. The answer is because you probably don't understand it, which is precisely why you shouldn't be making your own program to begin with.

4) Lastly, we see ****ty programs like yours every day. Often multiple. Frankly, it's tiresome. Please, read the stickies and pick a program which will work from there. There is a saying that "Anything will work... for about 6 weeks", which is probably true. You might see minor progress with whatever terrible program you've made but in time you will stall out and you will not make much, if any, progress. Think long-term, drop your ego and realize there are people out there who dedicate their lives to this and they know more than you. Find a program which suits your level of fitness and your goals. Use it.

5) Here are some excellent programs which I hope you consider looking into:

- Rippetoes aka Starting Strength: I can personally attest to this program being superb. It's designed for any novice or beginner lifter but also for more experienced lifters who might not be used to a program consisting of heavy, compound movements. This will get you strong and if your diet is in order you will get bigger.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224

- Bill Starr 5x5 aka Madcow 5x5: I love this one. It's for an intermediate lifter and the focus of this program is to get you strong as quickly as possible. And it works.
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow...Linear_5x5.htm

- HST (Hypertrophy/Strength Training): I haven't personally lifted in this style but plenty of people swear by it. This should work well for someone looking for gains in both strength and hypertrophy (ie. getting both strong and bigger muscles).
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=280813
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=714401

- German Volume Training: I've ran this and even having lifted for years before I ran it I was sore as a dog after pretty much every workout. DOMS doesn't necessarily mean it's working, but this is a pretty rough ride. GVT is designed to primarily make you bigger (hypertrophy).
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/luis13.htm

- There are PLENTY of other programs. Here is a guide here, one of the stickies you SHOULD have already read...
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=113707701

- You should also venture out into the other sections, the Nutrition and Exercise ones especially (not so much the misc, you're better off not going there). I can promise you that you're going to learn a lot and help your progress if you do.

1) I'm not a beginner. I'm certainly no expert, but I'm not a beginner. I've outgrown starting strength and strong lifts. As for isolation lifts and need... isn't need based on goals?

2) I'm pretty sure I'm not hardcore enough for muscle imbalances to be an immediate concern for me. Point made and taken, but at this point I don't think my routine is so incredible out of balance that I'm going to and up deformed.

3) Maybe. Should I have given more info to start off my post?

4) skipped

5) I've outgrown starting strength and stronglifts. I've looked at madcow and like certain things about it, but ultimately it's not what I want right now. I'm not familiar with the others, but will look into them.
[/quote]


Finally...
Admittedly, I don't generally like you. I respect your knowledge most of the time, but generally don't like your posts or the tone of your posts. I've tried to take that biased out of my thoughts with respect to your post and this reply. Sorry if I'm being at all close-minded.

jacksonpt

Can you expand on what you mean by more intensity?

Good question. I want to feel like I've worked harder than I do. Some of that is pushing through my own mental barriers. But a lot of it is spending 30 of the 45 minutes in the gym resting between sets. I'm a cardio guy at heart, so I like to sweat and feel like I "left it all on the course" at the end of a workout. So I think a few more lifts and something like a 3x8 vs a 5x5 might be better suited to me. Does that make sense?

If you mean really blasting a muscle group when you go in, a lot of that has to do with number of sets and the rep ranges you choose. Doing some hypertrophy work or a few ultrahigh rep sets may assist with that.

Yep, I think that's what I was getting at above.

If it means being able to push yourself harder throughout the workout it's arguable that hitting varying muscle groups (i.e. supersetting pressing moves with pulling ones) will better facilitate that.

Right, which is something that I think I naturally gravitate towards.

If it's keeping you interested and preventing the workout from getting stale, you might want to look into alternating workouts. An example would be with your leg day, doing a regular squat (heavy) and SLDL (lighter) one week, and then a regular deadlift (heavy) and front squat (lighter) the next.

That's definitely an issue for me too.

And some questions:
1 - Why decline and not flat bench?
2 - Why do you do your deadlifts after both leg press and calf raise?
3 - Can you do close grip bench? Does it hurt your shoulder?
4 - Can you do shrugs?

1 - No good reason, I guess.
2 - I do deads to focus on lower back/core (almost a stiff legged DL). But deads were a though fit... might make more sense on back day. Figured I'd go by feel on that one.
3 - Haven't tried, but probably not yet. Still doing wide grip to reduce strain on my shoulder.
4 - Yep.

jacksonpt

A lot of exercises per day, I would drop some exercises (like 1-2 of them) and add more sets to the ones remaining (wouldn't do more than 16 sets for a muscle group on any given day though, hell even 12 is enough). This will help keep workout intensity high instead of walking around the gym setting up new exercises to do. I'd never recommend deadlifts and squats on the same day, unless you plan on the stiff-legged variant with lighter weight, but then again I don't do deadlifts on leg day (well I used to, I just put it on back day to avoid the overlap with squats, doing them on either day would be fine though, although I'd recommend you look up free-weight hack squats if you want to do deadlifts on leg day, it's easier on your lower back and absolutely badass for quads).

Thanks... I'll keep that in mind. Never really looked at volume in that way (sets per overall muscle group).

ArroganceInStep

I'll follow this with the more brutal post from JUSA at bb.com forums

Why your program is terrible:
...

I had read that post before, and it annoys me to no end. There are some really good points made in it, but it glosses over some really important things.

Bench shouldn't be your focus unless you're powerlifting. Incline Press is the far better exercise to go with, particularly if you're not doing other overhead work and if you don't have someone to coach your form and keep you from messing up your shoulders.

Beginners should follow programs to the letter. Intermediate guys should initially follow a program to the letter and then customize as needed after assessing its effectiveness. Advanced guys should know how to program for themselves, and can base that programming off of a combination of existing programming and experience. At that level, getting a feel for it and working with how your body is feeling from day to day matters a lot more than if they followed what was written to the letter.

The post is also geared towards training like a powerlifter. I'm all about that, but it's not for everyone. If someone wants to train for aesthetics, which I believe is at least part of what Jackson is shooting for, there's nothing wrong with throwing in some mirror moves towards that end. It shouldn't be the foundation of any training protocol, baseline strength should come first regardless of specific goals from strength training, but having them in isn't a bad thing.

Guys like Rip and Starr created programs that would work well for everyone, but at a certain point experienced lifters SHOULD tweak the program to suit their needs and interests. Doing that well, making a program work better for you, is the sign of a good lifter.

Good question. I want to feel like I've worked harder than I do. Some of that is pushing through my own mental barriers. But a lot of it is spending 30 of the 45 minutes in the gym resting between sets. I'm a cardio guy at heart, so I like to sweat and feel like I "left it all on the course" at the end of a workout. So I think a few more lifts and something like a 3x8 vs a 5x5 might be better suited to me. Does that make sense?

I would definitely suggest looking towards things like supersetting and such. With the program you listed I think there's a high probability you'll just end up spending a lot of time resting between sets, which won't help the issue.

1 - No good reason, I guess.
2 - I do deads to focus on lower back/core (almost a stiff legged DL). But deads were a though fit... might make more sense on back day. Figured I'd go by feel on that one.
3 - Haven't tried, but probably not yet. Still doing wide grip to reduce strain on my shoulder.
4 - Yep.

1 - You should go with flat over decline, unless it hurts your shoulder.
2 - You can do deadlift on squat day, it'll kick your butt, but I think that's what you want. My point was it should be your first or second exercise, not something after calf raises
3 - I won't go against your doctor if that's what was suggested (I don't know the specifics of the injury) but my understanding is that close grip puts LESS strain on your shoulder, and wide grip more
4 - ok.


I'll PM you with some suggestions later today.

Either way, good luck man.

yiffanarff

Bumping because I want to find a good lifting program and those bb.com links look great.

FullOfWin

zomg multiquote nightmare

I wouldn't do a 3 day bro split.

why?

Higher frequency is better. See here http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=137364463

I would do sldl instead of leg curls

I'm specifically trying to target the hamstrings, and balance is an issue. Leg curls, I think, would be a more effective exercise for me, no?

well maybe. i like sldl cause i'm in favor of compounds

I wouldn't do leg extensions

I'm not doing leg extensions

what are leg raises? like ab targeting leg raises?

I would do chest flies on a cable tower

I can do that. Any reason?

The cable tower provides constant tension vs high tension at the bottom and decreasing through the movement. the same can be said for other DB isolation exercises (although possibly high at the top rather than bottom)

I would do lunges instead of leg press

Even with squats in the routine? I was looking to target my quads specifically.

Lunges would be fine for that although front squats may be better

I wouldn't try to increase instensity by adding things I don't need

isn't "need" based on goals?

certainly to a degree, but you didn't list any specific enough to account for everything you have

I wouldn't try to program for myself when I don't know how

I can see the validity in that. But I'll take a routine that might be slighly less "efficient" over a routine I have no interest in doing and thus can't/won't stick with.

you aren't a noob that needs to prove to himself that he can stick with something. you already know you can. just do it.

1) I'm not a beginner. I'm certainly no expert, but I'm not a beginner. I've outgrown starting strength and strong lifts. As for isolation lifts and need... isn't need based on goals?

If you can still make gains from a beginner LP routine, you are a beginner. It doesn;t matter how long you have been lifting.

5) I've outgrown starting strength and stronglifts. I've looked at madcow and like certain things about it, but ultimately it's not what I want right now. I'm not familiar with the others, but will look into them.

how did you determine that? what are your 1rms on the big 3? are you unable to increase strength while increasing body weight and resting enough? have you already been through advanced novice modification to such routines?

Finally...
Admittedly, I don't generally like you. I respect your knowledge most of the time, but generally don't like your posts or the tone of your posts. I've tried to take that biased out of my thoughts with respect to your post and this reply. Sorry if I'm being at all close-minded.

I don't care. Why even bother saying so? Why say you're sorry to someone you don't like? You can tell yourself you are sorry for your closed-mindedness. You are the one being hurt by it, not me.

erinsueburns

Admittedly, I'm getting back to lifting after quite some time off.

But, especially when I know I have having balance issues, and really just in general, I tend to find compound exercises more effective, and frankly more difficult. They make me feel like I have done more work in my allotted time, and make me retrain my balance.

Here are some pretty clearly thought out compound routines:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/wotw46.htm

To any of those I would add glute ham raises for focus on hamstring and core, because they are my personal nemesis....

letjog

Can you expand on what you mean by more intensity?

Good question. I want to feel like I've worked harder than I do. Some of that is pushing through my own mental barriers. But a lot of it is spending 30 of the 45 minutes in the gym resting between sets. I'm a cardio guy at heart, so I like to sweat and feel like I "left it all on the course" at the end of a workout. So I think a few more lifts and something like a 3x8 vs a 5x5 might be better suited to me. Does that make sense?



That's how I feel! Nice to hear it from someone else.

TR0berts

Day 1: back and bis
- Weighted pull-ups
- Lat bar pull-downs
- T-bar rows
- Barbell rows
- EZ bar curls

Since the the lat bar pull-downs hit your lats harder, and want to do curls, I'd ditch the weighted pull-ups and curls and replace them with chin-ups. You'll get a good bicep workout from them. And you could make the lat bar pull-downs the wide grip variety.

Day 3: Chest and tris
- Incline bench
- Decline bench
- Dumbbell flys
- Overhead press
- Dips
- Skullcrushers

Ditch the decline bench. If nothing else, for safety purposes. If something goes wrong with decline, you could easily end up with a barbell crushing your throat. If you're smart, it's not likely, but still a possibility. Go with a flat bench - and do that move first. Additionally, you may think about moving the overhead press to a different day, so you don't overwork your shoulder. There are a lot of moves here that use/work your shoulders. On the other hand, you may be trying to give your shoulder a full week's rest. In which case, I'd recommend switching overhead and flat bench as your first exercise this day each week.

Day 5: Legs and core
- Squats
- Leg press
- Calf raise
- Deadlift
- Leg curls
- Leg raises
- Cable crunches
- Hyperextensions

You can cut down on your time in the gym by taking out the hyperextensions and leg curls and replacing them with a full-range ham-glute extension - the version that starts out with a back extension. That one kicks my butt every time I try it.

Lastly, you say that you've outgrown SS and SL - have you looked into 5/3/1? It's basically another version of those, but it's a little bit different. It also has suggested assistance exercises and a few particular programs. A link to Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 is below.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/how_to_build_pure_strength


eta: Seconded on looking into supersetting, where possible.

aweigh2go

Deleted

aweigh2go

Can you expand on what you mean by more intensity?

Good question. I want to feel like I've worked harder than I do. Some of that is pushing through my own mental barriers. But a lot of it is spending 30 of the 45 minutes in the gym resting between sets. I'm a cardio guy at heart, so I like to sweat and feel like I "left it all on the course" at the end of a workout. So I think a few more lifts and something like a 3x8 vs a 5x5 might be better suited to me. Does that make sense?


That's how I feel! Nice to hear it from someone else.

Wow! So there are at least 3 of us in this world that like to leave the gym with a sweat without doing cardio. I sometime worry if my workout was any good if I don't have to take a few minutes to gather myself before I hit the locker room!

ArroganceInStep

For people saying they want the cardio aspect out of their lifts: look into supersetting exercises, limiting rest time, and strip sets.

A lot of people see great success supersetting push and pull movements. On their pressing day they'd do bodyweight pullups (or lat pulldowns) between bench sets, and rows between overhead sets. They'd then do the reverse on a pulling day.

For rest times, there's a lot of merit to getting enough rest between lifting sets to maximize the amount of weight you can move. You don't HAVE to do this though. I recently switched to ~30 seconds of rest (the time I need to change the weight on the bar) between sets and it's a killer. If you get stronger limiting your rest time, I think you get stronger with unlimited rest as well, the difference is you'd have a greater capacity for work. It's a hell of a cardio workout.

Strip sets are fun because light weights kick your butt, not really much more to say beyond that.

aweigh2go

Day 1: back and bis
- Weighted pull-ups
- Lat bar pull-downs
- T-bar rows
- Barbell rows
- EZ bar curls

I realize you are working the biceps with back exercises but maybe 1 less exercise for back and 1 more for bis to isolate them? This is the only suggestion I have. Everything else looks reasonable. Looks similar to a program I am starting:

http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/20-6-day-weight-cardio-cutting-workout.html

DavPul

INB4 any split routine is called a Bro-Split!!! Oh, too late. Well, it's MFP, so that is to be expected. How did anybody get big and strong before those 5x5 programs were invented? I guess it never happened.

Personally, I prefer to hit my muscles twice a week and use a 2 day, twice a week split (MT-ThF), but I've seen once per week programs work for people. My main gripe with your program is that there are two many duplicate exercises that I would replace with dumbbell work. Here's what I would change to your program, based primarily on personal preference and past experience.

Day 1:

if you're doing pull ups there's no reason to do pull downs.
if you're doing barbell rows there's not much reason for t-bar rows.
Suggestion: Replace t-bar rows with heavy one arm dumbbell rows. eliminate lat pull downs. Maybe add bent rear delt flyes.

Day 2:

Replace decline bench with flat bench dumbbells. Add side laterals for shoulders.
Some weeks, consider doing flat bench and incline dumbbells instead of incline bench

Day 3:

Consider moving deadlifts to Day 1 as performing well on squats and deads on the same day is difficult.
I would drop the leg curls and hyperextensions altogether (personal preference, especially if I'm proceeding well on the deadlifts
If you're going to do direct ab work, put together a comprehensive routine for them.

DavPul

I would get 1 -2 more exercises for your shoulders in their somewhere ( assuming your healthy enough to do so... I know more than a few people have injuries that prevent them from doing most shoulder exercises).

I am working through a shoulder injury, so while I'm not trying to let it be an excuse anymore, I do need to be careful with it.

consider doing more rear shoulder work or incorporating the YWTL (youtube it) type routines into your program. I'm going thru something similar right now.

With that in mind, consider replacing a lot of your barbell bench and shoulder work with dumbbell work.

jacksonpt

INB4 any split routine is called a Bro-Split!!! Oh, too late. Well, it's MFP, so that is to be expected. How did anybody get big and strong before those 5x5 programs were invented? I guess it never happened.

Personally, I prefer to hit my muscles twice a week and use a 2 day, twice a week split (MT-ThF), but I've seen once per week programs work for people. My main gripe with your program is that there are two many duplicate exercises that I would replace with dumbbell work. Here's what I would change to your program, based primarily on personal preference and past experience.

Day 1:

if you're doing pull ups there's no reason to do pull downs.
if you're doing barbell rows there's not much reason for t-bar rows.
Suggestion: Replace t-bar rows with heavy one arm dumbbell rows. eliminate lat pull downs. Maybe add bent rear delt flyes.

Day 2:

Replace decline bench with flat bench dumbbells. Add side laterals for shoulders.
Some weeks, consider doing flat bench and incline dumbbells instead of incline bench

Day 3:

Consider moving deadlifts to Day 1 as performing well on squats and deads on the same day is difficult.
I would drop the leg curls and hyperextensions altogether (personal preference, especially if I'm proceeding well on the deadlifts
If you're going to do direct ab work, put together a comprehensive routine for them.

Good stuff, thanks. I wondered about the duplicate/repetitive nature of multiple rows...

HelloDan

2) I'm pretty sure I'm not hardcore enough for muscle imbalances to be an immediate concern for me. Point made and taken, but at this point I don't think my routine is so incredible out of balance that I'm going to and up deformed.

It doesn't take much for imbalances to take effect. In fact most people who don't even train have imbalances from every day life. As a cyclist, it's quite common to pick up imbalances from lots of saddle time.

Whilst I'm not saying you're deformed, or even that you have imbalances for certain, in your deadlift picture, your back is pretty flexed.
It might just be that the weight is so heavy causing it, in which case I'd be careful of injury, but it could also be pelvic tilt and\or imbalances around the scapulae. In the case of the second issue, this can make any shoulder problems much worse, as can lead to rotator cuff impingement.

FullOfWin

Actually terrible body part splits posted by people that aren't even intermediate are called bro splits on other lifting sites as well

ArroganceInStep

Actually terrible body part splits posted by people that aren't even intermediate are called bro splits on other lifting sites as well

Generally by folks who either:
A) Don't lift that much, don't have anything to provide to the conversation, and just regurgitate whatever approach of the month they've locked onto as the one true way to do things.
Are convinced their routine is the only way to do things, even though it's proven that there are a variety of ways to progress.
C) Are actually experienced, and are able to say why a given split is inferior or would be counterproductive, and what would work better.

I'm curious, are you intermediate yet?

FullOfWin

Actually terrible body part splits posted by people that aren't even intermediate are called bro splits on other lifting sites as well

Generally by folks who either:
A) Don't lift that much, don't have anything to provide to the conversation, and just regurgitate whatever approach of the month they've locked onto as the one true way to do things.
Are convinced their routine is the only way to do things, even though it's proven that there are a variety of ways to progress.
C) Are actually experienced, and are able to say why a given split is inferior or would be counterproductive, and what would work better.

I'm curious, are you intermediate yet?

and D by lots of people that are none of those.

well i've been set back by getting sick a couple times, but I would say I was pretty close. should be back where I was in a few more weeks. thanks for your concern.

Going4Lean

bump

ArroganceInStep

and D by lots of people that are none of those.

well i've been set back by getting sick a couple times, but I would say I was pretty close. should be back where I was in a few more weeks. thanks for your concern.

The 'lots of people who are none of those' don't know what they're talking about. Doing a push, pull, legs split is an extremely viable method for getting very (VERY) strong. There are admittedly some flaws that I can see with Jackson's program, but the premise behind it is sound.

As a fledgeling intermediate lifter, what makes you so sure that your comments are accurate? The tone of your posts has been that yours is the only way to do things, and it's not. Having an open mind to different philosophies in lifting is, in my opinion, tremendously important to future progress once you become more advanced.

FullOfWin

and D by lots of people that are none of those.

well i've been set back by getting sick a couple times, but I would say I was pretty close. should be back where I was in a few more weeks. thanks for your concern.

The 'lots of people who are none of those' don't know what they're talking about. Doing a push, pull, legs split is an extremely viable method for getting very (VERY) strong. There are admittedly some flaws that I can see with Jackson's program, but the premise behind it is sound.

As a fledgeling intermediate lifter, what makes you so sure that your comments are accurate? The tone of your posts has been that yours is the only way to do things, and it's not. Having an open mind to different philosophies in lifting is, in my opinion, tremendously important to future progress once you become more advanced.

I'm familiar with push\pull\legs although I'm not sure if it would ever be THE best method for anyone, and if it is, it would be for a very advanced lifter. The kind that doesn't need to post routines at all, or doesn't post something terrible. It just isn't the same thing as someone with little to no programming knowledge trying to make up a routine. The only thing I really think is "the only way to do things" is for people who can't program for themselves don't for the exact reasons seen is this thread.

jacksonpt

and D by lots of people that are none of those.

well i've been set back by getting sick a couple times, but I would say I was pretty close. should be back where I was in a few more weeks. thanks for your concern.

The 'lots of people who are none of those' don't know what they're talking about. Doing a push, pull, legs split is an extremely viable method for getting very (VERY) strong. There are admittedly some flaws that I can see with Jackson's program, but the premise behind it is sound.

As a fledgeling intermediate lifter, what makes you so sure that your comments are accurate? The tone of your posts has been that yours is the only way to do things, and it's not. Having an open mind to different philosophies in lifting is, in my opinion, tremendously important to future progress once you become more advanced.

I'm familiar with push\pull\legs although I'm not sure if it would ever be THE best method for anyone, and if it is, it would be for a very advanced lifter. The kind that doesn't need to post routines at all, or doesn't post something terrible. It just isn't the same thing as someone with little to no programming knowledge trying to make up a routine. The only thing I really think is "the only way to do things" is for people who can't program for themselves don't for the exact reasons seen is this thread.

but what is "the best"?