working on a new lifting routine - thoughts?

jayche

both stronglifts and wendller are programs designed by powerlifters with powerlifting goals in mind. what do i do if i have zero interest in becoming a powerlifter?

Accessory work in hypertrophy rep ranges.

ArroganceInStep

both stronglifts and wendller are programs designed by powerlifters with powerlifting goals in mind. what do i do if i have zero interest in becoming a powerlifter?

Accessory work in hypertrophy rep ranges.

You can also do your primary lifts in higher rep ranges and see benefits there too. Widowmakers are excellent mass builders, for example, and they are outside the traditional 'hypertrophy range'.

I don't think 5/3/1 or Stronglifts are really powerlifting protocols. I think they were developed as a baseline for their prospective users (i.e. 5/3/1 is generally more effective for slightly more advanced lifters than Stronglifts). It's the minimum amount of work you should be doing to see progress. For some you shouldn't be doing much more than that as scheduling and recovery time would become an issue, but for those looking to do more with the time and work capacity for it, more would be better if they're gearing up for a meet.

The change I mentioned was not my idea.

My actual original claim was that I would not run a 3 day split myself. My subsequent claims when asked why were that someone who isn't even beyond novice will not get the fastest progress from a body part split, nor should they be writing their own routines from scratch. Where the ideas of me thinking 5x5 is the only way to train or that I think people should run beginner routines for a decade came from, I don't know.

Then how do you know it's a good change? How do you know it's not a crap adjustment that will tank your progress? Either you trust the person giving you the information, or you try it and see for yourself.

I repeat again that if you can do weighted pullups and know the form for the basic lifts, that kind of classes you out of being a beginner. You don't learn how to program for yourself unless you try.

You can see fantastic results from a body part split, and have less issues with recovery time (particularly if you're in training for anything else concurrently), which would enable you to run the program longer and with more consistency. Consistency will ALWAYS be by far the most important component in any training paradigm. I don't know how Jackson trains for comps, but my friend was training for an iron man and was putting in 3+ miles a week swimming, 30+ miles running, and 100+ miles cycling. I know I wouldn't be able to do that and squat 3 times a week.

FullOfWin

Being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative is not the way to get optimal gains

ArroganceInStep

Being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative is not the way to get optimal gains

But it's far more interesting.

I'm primarily in contention with you because I find your outlook on training to be extremely narrow minded. You did things one way and had success with it, so that's the best way and everyone should do it like that (I'm exaggerating I know, you never said that, but it's what I believe your tone implies). You have explicitly stated that it's the fastest way, not just in this thread but in others as well.

Through PMs I suggested the OP pick up a 5/3/1 style protocol, and run a squat day, a pull day, and a combined bench and press day each once per week. I also suggested some assistance work, but ultimately said he should pick moves that hit the target areas that he likes best. He's done a squat workout so far, and seems to like it.

I find that to be far less argumentative than saying 'you're a beginner and shouldn't program when you don't know what you're doing' or 'the routine you put together is garbage' to a triathlete that's probably been training for at least as long as you have.

jacksonpt

Being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative is not the way to get optimal gains

I think that's where you lost me in all this. I get that there are certain ways that have been shown (or are generally accepted) to be more optimal. I'm not arguing that point.

However, the 2% or 5% or 10% more gains you might see from a more optimal program are, IMO, irrelevant if it's not a program you can stick to and work hard at throughout. We see these types of conversations about diet all the time, where adherence is a big factor in determining what to do. Why is that not a factor in conversations about workouts/routines?

I'm going to get far better results from a moderately less efficient routine that I kill day in and day out than I will an optimal routine that I half *kitten*.

Additionally, as has been suggested previously in this post, becoming an accomplished or competitive powerlifting isn't my goal. Nor is flat out strength gains. If it were, I'd be on a calorie surplus. Strength is part of it, sure. But I also have goals related to racing, aesthetics, etc.

FullOfWin

Being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative is not the way to get optimal gains

I think that's where you lost me in all this. I get that there are certain ways that have been shown (or are generally accepted) to be more optimal. I'm not arguing that point.

However, the 2% or 5% or 10% more gains you might see from a more optimal program are, IMO, irrelevant if it's not a program you can stick to and work hard at throughout. We see these types of conversations about diet all the time, where adherence is a big factor in determining what to do. Why is that not a factor in conversations about workouts/routines?

I'm going to get far better results from a moderately less efficient routine that I kill day in and day out than I will an optimal routine that I half *kitten*.

Additionally, as has been suggested previously in this post, becoming an accomplished or competitive powerlifting isn't my goal. Nor is flat out strength gains. If it were, I'd be on a calorie surplus. Strength is part of it, sure. But I also have goals related to racing, aesthetics, etc.

The comment wasn't directed at you but

First and foremost I made the assumption that you are someone committed enough to training that you would carry out a routine based on your needs without any question of whether you would just give up because it isn't your fave

You said you wanted to get stronger. I replied, as I always do, with what I thought to be the most optimal way to go about it based on my own knowledge base and whatever info the OP has given AFTER making suggestions about how to improve what you had for yourself.

jacksonpt

Being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative is not the way to get optimal gains

I think that's where you lost me in all this. I get that there are certain ways that have been shown (or are generally accepted) to be more optimal. I'm not arguing that point.

However, the 2% or 5% or 10% more gains you might see from a more optimal program are, IMO, irrelevant if it's not a program you can stick to and work hard at throughout. We see these types of conversations about diet all the time, where adherence is a big factor in determining what to do. Why is that not a factor in conversations about workouts/routines?

I'm going to get far better results from a moderately less efficient routine that I kill day in and day out than I will an optimal routine that I half *kitten*.

Additionally, as has been suggested previously in this post, becoming an accomplished or competitive powerlifting isn't my goal. Nor is flat out strength gains. If it were, I'd be on a calorie surplus. Strength is part of it, sure. But I also have goals related to racing, aesthetics, etc.

The comment wasn't directed at you but

First and foremost I made the assumption that you are someone committed enough to training that you would carry out a routine based on your needs without any question of whether you would just give up because it isn't your fave

You said you wanted to get stronger. I replied, as I always do, with what I thought to be the most optimal way to go about it based on my own knowledge base and whatever info the OP has given AFTER making suggestions about how to improve what you had for yourself.

I know it wasn't directed at me... but I was going off your comment about being optimal, because that's the approach you take with all these routine-type posts.

What part of my original post where I said I had gotten lazy and sloppy made you think I was committed enough to stick with a program that "wasn't my fave"?

Lastly, your approach to optimal ignores all other variables, and puts the sole focus on the routine. If someone said they can only workout at home with minimal equipment, what would you suggest to them? Getting optimal results does have a lot to do with the routine, but it's also got a lot to do with effort given to the routine.

I said I had been doing stronglifts, I said it wasn't working for me (because I had gotten lazy with it) and I specifically said I wanted something different. Why would you still recommend a canned 5x5 routine?

I don't doubt your knowledge, nor do I doubt the success you've had. But you seem so narrow minded that it's hard to take your advice seriously.

fbmandy55

Day 1: back and bis
- Weighted pull-ups
- Lat bar pull-downs
- T-bar rows
- Barbell rows
- EZ bar curls


Day 3: Chest and tris
- Incline bench
- Decline bench
- Dumbbell flys
- Overhead press
- Dips
- Skullcrushers

Day 4: cardio/mobility/rest

Day 5: Legs and core
- Squats
- Leg press
- Calf raise
- Deadlift
- Leg curls
- Leg raises
- Cable crunches
- Hyperextensions

So how long does it take to do these days. I have been doing similar routines and I feel like I should be spending an hour, not 30 mins. It seems like it doesn't take long to do 3 sets of each and rest for a minute in between. I've actually been adding a 15-20 moderate walk in on these days too.

jacksonpt

Day 1: back and bis
- Weighted pull-ups
- Lat bar pull-downs
- T-bar rows
- Barbell rows
- EZ bar curls


Day 3: Chest and tris
- Incline bench
- Decline bench
- Dumbbell flys
- Overhead press
- Dips
- Skullcrushers

Day 4: cardio/mobility/rest

Day 5: Legs and core
- Squats
- Leg press
- Calf raise
- Deadlift
- Leg curls
- Leg raises
- Cable crunches
- Hyperextensions

So how long does it take to do these days. I have been doing similar routines and I feel like I should be spending an hour, not 30 mins. It seems like it doesn't take long to do 3 sets of each and rest for a minute in between. I've actually been adding a 15-20 moderate walk in on these days too.

Heavy 5x5 lifts take me about 10 minutes per lift.... about 2 mins of rest between sets, then 30 seconds or whatever to actually do the set.

2x10 or 3x10 take less time as I only rest for about a minute and there are less sets.

So if a given day has 2 lifts that are 5x5s and 3 lifts that are 2x10s, it's probably about 40 minutes total gym time for me.

ArroganceInStep

So how long does it take to do these days. I have been doing similar routines and I feel like I should be spending an hour, not 30 mins. It seems like it doesn't take long to do 3 sets of each and rest for a minute in between. I've actually been adding a 15-20 moderate walk in on these days too.

What are your goals?

A decent routine in 30 minutes is doable, but it would likely require a very high intensity in your training, to a level that is difficult for most to achieve (I'm not there yet, I don't have the wind for it). You'd have to have a very high capacity for that kind of work to maximize your results. If you're not at that level yet, taking 45 to 60 minutes and putting in more volume may yield better results.

Do you do warmups before your big lifts and do you lift to failure on each set?

fbmandy55

What are your goals?

A decent routine in 30 minutes is doable, but it would likely require a very high intensity in your training, to a level that is difficult for most to achieve (I'm not there yet, I don't have the wind for it). You'd have to have a very high capacity for that kind of work to maximize your results. If you're not at that level yet, taking 45 to 60 minutes and putting in more volume may yield better results.

Do you do warmups before your big lifts and do you lift to failure on each set?

BRAND new to this. In all honesty, I'm doing this at a place with no trainer and have no friends who know anything about this. Since I've only been going for about 2 weeks I haven't been doing BIG lifts per se. I am doing 3 x 12 of a weight that is challenging but not impossible to complete and putting together my own little routine from a combo of Jamie Eason's Livefit and suggestions from BB.com

Don't want to take away from the OP so feel free to PM me if you would!