Ending 1200 Calorie Bashing: Respecting Your Peers
Replies
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Didn't I just say that? You are right women tend to respond better to higher fat intakes.
And that means nothing. Your husband and your father ATE under their caloric maintenance. You're acting like women follow some different set of rules. Sorry but they don't. The only difference is most require fewer calories. And when I mean by fewer, I don't mean by much.Most immediately jump to 1200 calories, because they believe they will reach their goal faster. I can understand doing such a thing out of ignorance. However, that won't last long.
The "everyone is different" mantra is getting quite old. No, everyone is not different. You can't defy the laws of thermodynamics. 1200 calorie diets coupled with an exercise program should not be "prescribed" to anyone. I don't care how big and or how much weight you need to lose. Weight loss is not a short term solution, it's a long term endeavor.
Agree 100%
I love when Men in particular have advice for women on weight loss . It's so cute
Hate to ruin what might by my only opportunity to be "cute," but why can't men advise women on weight loss?
Weight loss between the sexes is a teeny bit different . I've been on MFP since August , logging , measuring and working hard 5 times a week . My Fiancé who thinks chicken parm subs are a healthy lunch because chicken is in the name , doesn't work out , and wakes up at 3 am and eats donuts recently lost 10 pounds due to work stress . Granted he ate a few less cookies that week . My Father also recently lost 30 pounds by cutting out Bacon ! And before you ask he was having it everyday with breakfast . My Mother who eats salad everyday told me she might just kill him . That's the difference
And if I have to be called snarky the so be it. I rather be snarky than enable a "snowflake" to create a blizzard. Like I have always said, a lot of people don't come here to help. They are looking for validation.
You get to play the ignorance card once.
Women DO need a different amount of calories AND their fat intake needs to be higher than men's. Hormones. They control much more than most realize.0 -
You can endorse a low calorie diet without directly telling people that it works for you, it'll work for them. It's implied when you make a very wordy post condemning the masses on the forums for directing people to the roadmap and other information that discourages very low calorie diets. The majority of people on the forum denounce 1200 or lower diets for a reason. It's not ideal, unsafe and unhealthy for most people. So just because your doctor recommends it for YOU, why is it offensive that it's pointed out to others to be too low. For most it IS too low and unhealthy, so pointing that out and directing them to more information isnt bashing at all. If *YOU* are called out in the forums, then defend it there. Because your post sounds like flame-baiting. It sounds like you are trying to stir up the debate. For most, it's not ideal. I'm happy for you that you are part of less than 1% it's good for. Why you wouldn't want to see the others discouraged from unhealthy dieting practices is beyond me. If I were in your position I might caution others from mimicking what I'm doing because only a doctor should be making those exceptions. Instead you seem to give the impression that it's right for many, that lots of your friends are special snowflakes bullied by the forums.
You need to reread op and her comments through the thread. She is not advocating VLCD unsupervised . She is asking for people to show respect whatever their perspective. Simple really.0 -
Didn't I just say that? Regarding the fat intake, that depends on the person. Women DON"T need a higher intake than men.
And that means nothing. Your husband and your father ATE under their caloric maintenance. You're acting like women follow some different set of rules. Sorry but they don't. The only difference is most require fewer calories. And when I mean by fewer, I don't mean by much.Most immediately jump to 1200 calories, because they believe they will reach their goal faster. I can understand doing such a thing out of ignorance. However, that won't last long.
The "everyone is different" mantra is getting quite old. No, everyone is not different. You can't defy the laws of thermodynamics. 1200 calorie diets coupled with an exercise program should not be "prescribed" to anyone. I don't care how big and or how much weight you need to lose. Weight loss is not a short term solution, it's a long term endeavor.
Agree 100%
I love when Men in particular have advice for women on weight loss . It's so cute
Hate to ruin what might by my only opportunity to be "cute," but why can't men advise women on weight loss?
Weight loss between the sexes is a teeny bit different . I've been on MFP since August , logging , measuring and working hard 5 times a week . My Fiancé who thinks chicken parm subs are a healthy lunch because chicken is in the name , doesn't work out , and wakes up at 3 am and eats donuts recently lost 10 pounds due to work stress . Granted he ate a few less cookies that week . My Father also recently lost 30 pounds by cutting out Bacon ! And before you ask he was having it everyday with breakfast . My Mother who eats salad everyday told me she might just kill him . That's the difference
And if I have to be called snarky the so be it. I rather be snarky than enable a "snowflake" to create a blizzard. Like I have always said, a lot of people don't come here to help. They are looking for validation.
You get to play the ignorance card once.
Women DO need a different amount of calories AND their fat intake needs to be higher than men's. Hormones. They control much more than most realize.
Calories or fat? Sorry, confused.0 -
You can endorse a low calorie diet without directly telling people that it works for you, it'll work for them. It's implied when you make a very wordy post condemning the masses on the forums for directing people to the roadmap and other information that discourages very low calorie diets. The majority of people on the forum denounce 1200 or lower diets for a reason. It's not ideal, unsafe and unhealthy for most people. So just because your doctor recommends it for YOU, why is it offensive that it's pointed out to others to be too low. For most it IS too low and unhealthy, so pointing that out and directing them to more information isnt bashing at all. If *YOU* are called out in the forums, then defend it there. Because your post sounds like flame-baiting. It sounds like you are trying to stir up the debate. For most, it's not ideal. I'm happy for you that you are part of less than 1% it's good for. Why you wouldn't want to see the others discouraged from unhealthy dieting practices is beyond me. If I were in your position I might caution others from mimicking what I'm doing because only a doctor should be making those exceptions. Instead you seem to give the impression that it's right for many, that lots of your friends are special snowflakes bullied by the forums.
You need to reread op and her comments through the thread. She is not advocating VLCD unsupervised . She is asking for people to show respect whatever their perspective. Simple really.
^^^Exactly. Believe me, VLCD didn't work for me, and I personally don't believe it works for most people. But if she has been instructed to do so by her doctor, we have to assume that it's being monitored and that all of her nutritional needs are being met. For all we know, the doc may plan to slowly increase her intake until it "evens out" at maintenance level. We don't know. But what we DO know, is that she is under a doctor's care, and that the problem she is pointing out is not actually caloric intake, but the attitude from other members, which tends to be "attack first, ask questions later." Honestly, the only areas *I* feel qualified to be "assertive" in are pregnancy and breastfeeding, as that's my area of study. I can share my own journey, but as far as what others' doctors have said?? That's between them. So it's not our job to try to make everyone fit our idea of what's the "right" way to lose weight, but to support one another and offer *ideas*, and share what's worked for us, though with the understanding that WE are not their doctor.0 -
Dear MFP Community,
I've been a member for years and I felt unwelcome in forums before because I am on a doctor-recommended 1100-1200 calorie diet. This time around I've really dug my heels in and made great friends in the community--lots of friends who share my struggles with Polycystic Ovarian Syndrom (PCOS) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Over the past few weeks, it has become more and more apparent that my friends and I are fearful of contributing to forums. When we say we are on low-calorie diets, you send us info from In Place of a Road Map (IPOARM). You tell us we are starving ourselves and that we are going to fail.
You, for the most part, are not doctors. You cannot keep making blanket statements. Yes, there are several people with eating disorders eating less than is healthy. We are not those people. You have every right to be concerned for people actually starving themselves, but you have no right to assume that calculations that worked for you will work for those with metabolic, endocrine, or other like disorders.
I am 325lbs. I was 340 when I began this last change in regimen three weeks ago. Being morbidly obese is at best going to make me diabetic and at worst going to kill me. I sincerely need and rely on the support I get from MFP. I've lost 60lbs twice before with this caloric intake. My diet never stalled and if it had I would have seen my team of doctors and readjusted. I gained weight back because I stopped tracking and started eating out again: I had not built a system for dealing with life's stresses, and I had not become an active person.
This is going to be a long post, but please bear with me. I know it needs to be said repeatedly because those found to be advocating 1200-calorie diets or more extreme caloric restriction are sometimes flagged and banned. I do not think anyone should undertake such caloric restrictions without medical advisement. I am speaking so that those with exceptional circumstance and doctor-recommended caloric restrictions can stop being treated with such disdain.
I have been very fortunate in that this time around I could undergo a visit to the BOD POD to find my accurate body composition. TDEE/BMR calculations are just estimates based on average metabolisms. For example, even the online BMI calculators (with exceptionally precise measurement of inches) gave me a number 7% higher than actual body composition testing. Sometimes caloric increases aid in weight loss; for some (again ideally under doctor's orders), seemingly severely low caloric intake is absolutely necessary. Either way, you can have a 1200-calorie regimen that is optimized and much healthier than a 2400-calories regimen that is full of crap food. It's all what you make of it.
Please consider the following research:
"The basal metabolic rate varies between individuals. One study of 150 adults representative of the population in Scotland reported basal metabolic rates from as low as 1027 kcal per day (4301 kJ) to as high as 2499 kcal (10455 kJ); with a mean BMR of 1500 kcal (6279 kJ). Statistically, the researchers calculated that 62.3% of this variation was explained by differences in fat free mass. Other factors explaining the variation included fat mass (6.7%), age (1.7%), and experimental error including within-subject difference (2%). The rest of the variation (26.7%) was unexplained. This remaining difference was not explained by sex nor by differing tissue sized of highly energetic organs such as the brain.[9]
Thus there are differences in BMR even when comparing two subjects with the same lean body mass. The top 5% of people are metabolizing energy 28-32% faster than individuals with the lowest 5% BMR.[10] For instance, one study reported an extreme case where two individuals with the same lean body mass of 43 kg had BMRs of 1075 kcal/day (4.5 MJ) and 1790 kcal/day (7.5 MJ). This difference of 715 kcal (67%) is equivalent to one of the individuals completing a 10 kilometer run every day.[10]"
See the Wikipedia entry for BMR to see the exact sources. They stand up.
These discussions bashing 1200-calorie diets are honestly extremely cruel and make those like me feel extremely unwelcome on MFP--even though they may be chockablock with good intentions. Certainly there are people on 1200-calorie diets attempting unrealistically fast weight loss and harming themselves. BUT, that's not all of us. Since when have hyperbolic statements done anyone any good?
It is also worth noting that I'm not starving. Again, I have been in the BOD POD and have used indirect calorimetry to find out my actual TDEE. It is VERY low and I would not go near starvation mode until under 900 calories for an extended period of time. My personal circumstance is not common. No one should try to follow what I'm doing without medical advice and testing. I'm going to keep repeating that--lest I be accused of supporting anorexia.
My diet, right now, at 1100-1200 calories is healthier than it has ever been. I don't eat diet foods, from 100-calorie packs to diet pop to 1% milk. I don't take any shortcuts and at the same time I don't care if you do--if that is working for you and you've checked on its safety and you're obese or morbidly obese, stay strong.
Yes, when I lose weight, when I get to goal, things might change with my caloric intake or breakdown of macros. Right now, due to the insulin resistance, I stay under 100 carbs. It's no Atkins diet, but it really is effective for me. I want to be able to talk to my fellow cysters (nickname for women with PCOS) about how to divide macros, create meal plans, and do everything else under the sun without people attacking me.
Just look at this recent thread (and it's just one very very recent one; there are tons of others that are much more judgmental): http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/870685-i-feel-sorry-for-women.
That was the breaking point for me. I don't need someone to feel sorry for me. You know what, no one gave me one bit of advice as I gained and gained weight. You'd think that on a forum like this people would be aware of the drastic, immediate dangers associated with obesity and especially morbid obesity; these conditions are so dangerous that doctors will readily recommend radical surgery (like gastric bypass or Lap-Band) and drastically low-calorie liquid diets (under 700 calories a day, with doctor supervision), because even the significant risk of those steps is sometimes less severe than the dangers of continued obesity. So when you take someone like me who is putting a great deal of effort into managing a doctor-recommended low-calorie diet, and you heap on discouragement, you are actively sapping my willpower and endangering my well-being.
Take as an example this VERY popular thread "1200 And Why It Won't Work," where a trainer goes on to offer medical advice to people. l chimed in to suggest that morbidly obese and obese individuals seek medical consultation, and I was attacked and told that this trainer was better than a doctor (!!!). People testifying that they are successful on lower calories or people saying they had metabolic or thyroid issues were disregarded and told they would fail in the future. All in all, this thread ( http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/865024-1200-and-why-it-won-t-work ) has received well over 300 comments! Most of these comments praise the OP and contribute to insulting those on low-calorie diets.
Yes, there will always be a constant stream of seemingly thin people saying "Help I'm on 1200 and I'm So Hungry" or "OMG I Can't Even Finish 1200 Calories." Most people respond to these people with complete aggression. "You're starving yourself!" "You're just a loser looking for sympathy." "You just want to be patted on the back for eating 1200!"
You know what we need to be saying? "Hey, here is IPOARM. Check out if 1200 is actually where you should be; MFP might be under-calculating for you." "Hey, here are some ways to make 1200 calories fill you up--more veggies, alternate macro percentages, etc." Finally, "Did you check with a nutritionist if this is recommended for you? It seems low for your activity level/size/height/whatever and it might be safe to get medical consult." That is support. That gives options and hope. That is what we should be here for.
Where are we at as a community when the person recommending medical consultation and highlighting that there is not a one-method-fits-all solution is treated like they are absurd? That thread is downright discouraging and depressing. Why couldn't it have carried the tone of something like "1200-Calorie Roadblocks and Alternatives?" Why would it outright attack people like me and try to make us feel doomed?
So again, please, try to actually be my fitness pals, not my fitness judge and jury. Please understand how diverse bodies are. Please consider how diverse diets are. For example, I don't eat diet food, but I have no right to make someone feel bad for grabbing a Special-K shake or a Lean Cuisine. At the same time, I can be a friend and discuss the benefits of a chemical-free at-home smoothie or the problems with sodium in pre-packaged food. I am here to be a friend, to help you be the best version of you as much as you can help me be the best version of me. Nothing is really wrong with IPOARM and for a lot of people raising calories seems to boost their metabolisms and help them--because they were set too low originally. I think what Dan has done on here is commendable; I think he is fantastic, but you can't use his tools as a weapon against everyone. Dan's system of calculations can't accomodate my extreme circumstance and that is alright. It's no fault of Dan. It's no fault of mine.
Just think of how you talk to others; stop assuming everyone is stupider than you; stop assuming everything you did is what they need to do. These are the same assumptions that lead you to believe fat people have been drowning themselves in fast food, coca cola, and twinkies. Well, that's not the case for me either. As a nearly 20-year pescatarian who eats an ethically-concerned whole food diet, I gain weight slowly and steadily at 2000 calories. Even in the mid-300s (and I've been over 250 since puberty) my cholesterol is remarkably low. My blood pressure is also excellent. Not all people got fat the same damn way, and our physiologies and psychologies differ enough that there is no one formula that will keep us all losing weight and feeling healthy. Again, in my own case I need very low carbs to lose weight and feel energized; many others with different metabolisms need a higher carb count to do the same.
Respect the individual. Please give people the benefit of the doubt and open discussions, don't shut them down. There's even a difference between saying "You might want to check out IPOARM and double-check your calories" vs. "You're starving yourself; eat more!!!." Words are very powerful things and we have to be careful with them.
With love,
Natalie
Natalie,
I believe the word you are looking for is "validity"!
Is IPOARM a valid solution to your weight loss?
Is a VLCD better for you?
I think you see bashing where we are in fact pointing out inconsistencies in the VLCD community.
For instance today a post went up in success stories about a woman eating "1200cals a day".
The fact is she showed us no valid examples of why her low calorie diet was any better or worse than IPOARM or EMTWL.
In fact she didn't post any stats except her total weight loss.
When asked for more info by me and our higher cal team she pretty much ignored what we asked.
We have some members who are in your same position.
Overweight, diabetes, pcos, you name it.
I have yet to hear a solid complaint about eating higher cals.
In fact when done correctly most of my members are losing fat.
Just as IPOARM states "this is a fat loss program".
So if you are ever interested in trying this out I'd be more than happy to take about 30 mins of my time and hash out all the details of your weight loss program.
Ill have you somewhere in the 1600-1800 and lifting weights about 3 hours a week.
Just send a PM.
And if you ever see a Road Mapper bashing anyone please let me know.
Ill handle the PR side of my group.
Good luck on your journey!
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I support you! I think the purpose of this site is to bring each other UP and to keep each other motivated. My calorie goal is 1200 a day. I don't have a problem with it. I usually don't feel hungry and if I do I eat another serving of fruit or vegies. I am lucky that I was raised loving good food from the garden and whole raw milk and all the wonderful things that nature provides. Think of food as fuel for your body - it is a wonderful machine. If you eat junk, your body will be junk. Peace and Love0
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The roadmap is based on data. I dig data. :-)
Natalie,
I believe the word you are looking for is "validity"!
Is IPOARM a valid solution to your weight loss?
Is a VLCD better for you?
I think you see bashing where we are in fact pointing out inconsistencies in the VLCD community.
For instance today a post went up in success stories about a woman eating "1200cals a day".
The fact is she showed us no valid examples of why her low calorie diet was any better or worse than IPOARM or EMTWL.
In fact she didn't post any stats except her total weight loss.
When asked for more info by me and our higher cal team she pretty much ignored what we asked.
We have some members who are in your same position.
Overweight, diabetes, pcos, you name it.
I have yet to hear a solid complaint about eating higher cals.
In fact when done correctly most of my members are losing fat.
Just as IPOARM states "this is a fat loss program".
So if you are ever interested in trying this out I'd be more than happy to take about 30 mins of my time and hash out all the details of your weight loss program.
Ill have you somewhere in the 1600-1800 and lifting weights about 3 hours a week.
Just send a PM.
And if you ever see a Road Mapper bashing anyone please let me know.
Ill handle the PR side of my group.
Good luck on your journey!0 -
I'm not going to read your wall of text or the 13 pages.
I'm all for Drs and I mean if your 350 and you need 1200 calories that is completely different, and I would support that in a safe controlled situation. So rock on! and congrats for taking control over your life.
I don't support enablers who are telling girls to get to unsafe weights in the sub 120 rage. No one needs to be 80 pounds, unless your 3'5". Those are fair game because reason and logic don't work. That's were sarcasm and animated gifs come in.
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Great post:-))... MFP told me 1200 cals when i put my goals in anyway0
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I want to make a very brief reply to this:
I started out about 4 or 5 years ago at 372 pounds. I joined Jenny Craig and was put on 2250 calories a day. I dropped weight easily, even without exercise. Life happened, and I couldn't afford Jenny Craig anymore, so I started on Atkin's. All told, I got down to 290 pounds, eating a fair amount of food. With PCOS.
I moved, I joined the Y, and I started exercising and WEIGHT TRAINING. I got down to 272.
Fast forward to about a year ago and well, I won't go into the gory details, but after living with my in-laws for over a year, watching them tear my house to shreds, and then watching my fiance almost bleed to death on the kitchen floor, I kind of sank into a pretty crippling depression. I got back up to 325. In a hurry.
Now I'm back on the wagon. I've been around here for a while, trying to read and absorb. Listening to the 'everything in moderation crowd'.
Here is what works for me and what does not. With PCOS, but otherwise, fairly normal bloodwork and blood pressure. Eat everything in moderation? No. Dieting only to lose weight? Everyone says it works, but it really doesn't. What works is moderating carb intake, eliminating heavily processed carbs and added sugars. And busting my *kitten* at the gym. And yes, this includes weight lifting. Once you start reducing body fat, you reduce the estrogen in your body, and this causes the testosterone to drop. I can't speak to people who have doctor recommended extreme cuts, but I will say this. There are not a lot of doctors that specialize in nutrition. It's a fairly long confusing topic, and can require years of study.0 -
I recently wrote a post against eating 1200 for everyone....
I don't think I was bashing those that only eat 1200...infact I have high regard and esteem for those that can sustain and maintain it. There is nothing wrong, healthwise, by doing that. Perhaps the message got lost somewhere....my main goal in the post was to merely suggest that you dont HAVE to eat 1200 to lose weight. After all, wouldn't it be much happier if u could eat let's say 1800? or even 1500?
This, and I will not stress again. Doctors do not follow the relevant literature on weight loss. I went through much of med school. at no point were we asked to run through a weight loss scenario. Beyond what doctors learn in undergad about substrate metabolism, and how generally the body loses weight, they do not take a special extra class on "weight loss". So as far as I'm concerned (as someone that literally siphons through journals and journals just on performance nutrition and weight loss mechanics), that someone like me and your doctor are probably on par. Whether you would believe that, is up to you, of course. My classmates that did make it through the grueling gauntlet of steps, matching interships, and eventually residency..have ask me for fitness advice all the time. This is no surprise to me, at least.
I encourage those that eat 1200, and feel great and have more enriched lives to do so. I am your first line cheerleader in the quest you have undertaken!0 -
You say tomato
Really, the special snowflake thing is just disdainful. It's really sad that that's part of your contribution. It's also just inaccurate. As I quoted in my original post--there are VAST differences in metabolisms; just because you plug something into a calculator does not make it accurate. If I see someone eating 1200 calories who hasn't gotten medical consult, then I always recommend IPOARM as a fantastic starting point. Enough already with the negative flippant comments.
Love,
A Special Snowflake--Just Like You
I'm sorry that the use of the term "special snowflake" made all of my points invalid to you and that you couldn't seem to grasp what I was saying. I wasn't intending to attack, I was only intending to educate. I apologize if you saw that as negative and flippant. I hope you can understand why I want to reach out to others and promote nutritious eating and physical fitness rather than constant hunger and deprivation.
Love,
A special person in a pretty ordinary snowflake body
I say tomato
[this took way longer than it was worth, I hope it drives the OP point home - pictures are our friends]0 -
Dan, I really appreciate the very good intentions in this offer and I am very glad you are willing to address your followers. I don't think pointing out their bashing is so necessary when it is so prevalent, but I'll gladly do that or respond on my own when I have the time. And I definitely appreciate the great resources you provide this community with IPOARM, which are invaluable for a great many people here; as I've said several times on this thread, I have frequently directed people to IPOARM. I've watched all your YouTube videos and read your major posts, and I've performed the calculations in their entirety. (By those calculations, the 1600s is indeed where I'd land.)
That said, I've had far more specific tests and measurements done that any online calculator can approach, modified by you or not. (Just as an example, the online body fat percentage calculator, even with very precise body measurements, is still 6.3 percentage points off. My calculated BMR was even further off-base, given that I've had indirect calorimetry tests that put my BMR in the 900s.) So while the tools you provide are certainly very useful for many people, it's not a good idea for you to suggest that it applies to over 99% of people, or that there's no such thing as a special snowflake, or especially that I should override the specific dietary guidelines given to me by a team of endocrinologists, internists, and dietitians specializing in PCOS in favor of guidelines you have gleaned from a few stats I've posted here. You are essentially telling me to turn down the professional medical advice of several of the most highly trained and renowned researchers in the field of PCOS research, in order to listen to the advice of a guy on the internet. That would be incredibly reckless of me, especially considering that as I have already stated, less trained dietitians and doctors have put me on higher-calorie diet and exercise regimes that only resulted in continued weight gain.
Dan, you are a very helpful and kind-hearted member of this community, but you have no place telling someone to ignore doctor's orders.
You say you'd be glad to police any of your supporters who "bashed" low-calorie dieters; I can't say whether they're members of your group or not, but you only have to look at this thread to see numerous posters claiming that they have better advice than doctors, and that their recommendations are to be trusted above that of a medical professional. You're putting yourself into that unfortunate category here.
When you're addressing obese and morbidly obese individuals in particular, people for whom weight loss isn't about aesthetics but a matter of life and death, suggesting that your advice trumps that of a doctor who has seen and interviewed and examined that person is very irresponsible. You're dealing with a population at a significantly increased risk of heart disease, stroke, diabetes, and a huge host of cancers (endometrial, ovarian, colorectal, breast, cervical, prostate, gall bladder, pancreatic, hepatic, and renal). There's a reason that many doctors prescribe low-calorie diets that you might consider radical for obese patients: because taking the "slow and steady" approach that at least some IPOARM and EMTWL proponents have suggested, where you could take two months to lose ten pounds, could actually be fatal for those patients. According to the World Health Organization, even a loss of 5-10kg in a year can reduce mortality for the morbidly obese by up to 25%. (http://whqlibdoc.who.int/trs/WHO_TRS_894_(part4).pdf, page 202).
Here's one hard fact about dietary science: it's a field that's still very much in development. However appealing it might be, you can't boil weight loss down to a one-size-fits-all formula. There are differences in body chemistry, hormones, psychology, and a host of other areas that complicate things. Just as an example, in your post you recommend that I lift weights a few hours a week; according to my reproductive endocrinologist, though, recent studies are revealing that added muscle mass can actually aggravate hormone imbalances for women with PCOS! Does that mean that women with PCOS can't lift? Of course not, but it DOES mean that you can't assume that lifting will help them, and (again) it's unethical (and technically illegal in some states) to advise people to go against medical consult. (Hence the little legal disclaimer at the bottom of the forum.)
Again, at the heart of my original post is my urging that people continue to direct others towards additional resource, but stop thinking that they know those others and their physiologies better than those people themselves and their doctors. I appreciate your congenial tone and your good intentions here, but you should know that it comes across as insulting to my years of tests, consultations, and personal experience to suggest that giving me a few hundred more calories and sending me to the gym three days a week would be a game-changer for me when I am already, as stated, seeing a 1-2 pound weight loss per week, increasing my physical activity, experiencing more energy, better blood workups, better heart performance, and no weakness, constant hunger, or loss of lean body mass.Natalie,
I believe the word you are looking for is "validity"!
Is IPOARM a valid solution to your weight loss?
Is a VLCD better for you?
I think you see bashing where we are in fact pointing out inconsistencies in the VLCD community.
For instance today a post went up in success stories about a woman eating "1200cals a day".
The fact is she showed us no valid examples of why her low calorie diet was any better or worse than IPOARM or EMTWL.
In fact she didn't post any stats except her total weight loss.
When asked for more info by me and our higher cal team she pretty much ignored what we asked.
We have some members who are in your same position.
Overweight, diabetes, pcos, you name it.
I have yet to hear a solid complaint about eating higher cals.
In fact when done correctly most of my members are losing fat.
Just as IPOARM states "this is a fat loss program".
So if you are ever interested in trying this out I'd be more than happy to take about 30 mins of my time and hash out all the details of your weight loss program.
Ill have you somewhere in the 1600-1800 and lifting weights about 3 hours a week.
Just send a PM.
And if you ever see a Road Mapper bashing anyone please let me know.
Ill handle the PR side of my group.
Good luck on your journey!0 -
nat,
i think you are so right on spot. i eat between 1200 - 1300 cals per day... i also...
-have 5 kids between the ages of 7-14
-i have a child who is asthmatic and a cardiac patient who visits the hospital and dr's frequently
-have 4 daughters on 3 different softball teams, running back and forth to games and practices
-have a son who is a leader at his skate ministry who has to get shuttled back and forth
-im a full time college student
-i have ocd in regards to cleaning my house
-i am cat mom to 3 cats, and dog mom to 2 dogs, all who get my attention daily
-i go to the gym 3-5 times per week, for 2 hours at a time
-i have a high maintenance 6th child type husband who needs me more than the children do...
this is my life, and on 1200 cals a day, im not tired, im not low on energy... i dont feel starved, i dont feel grumpy...
im so healthy, i scream it from roof tops... all of my blood workups, and "other" exams (im also a hypochondriac) show nothing but optimal health. my dr told me, when we were dicussing me losing weight, that at this point, me losing weight was 1) cosmetic and 2) prevention for possible health concerns down the road... i was 246 in september, im 189ish right now... im 5 foot 10, 32 years old, and somewhat active... my dr is very pleased with my progress, and is not concerned with my calorie intake at all.
i think that its important to remember that everyone is different, and our bodies are just that... OUR BODIES... and wether my dr of 10 years is a GOD at nutrition or not, im going to trust the advice of my dr, over any other person, on or off the internet.0 -
Dan, I really appreciate the very good intentions in this offer and I am very glad you are willing to address your followers. I don't think pointing out their bashing is so necessary when it is so prevalent, but I'll gladly do that or respond on my own when I have the time. And I definitely appreciate the great resources you provide this community with IPOARM, which are invaluable for a great many people here; as I've said several times on this thread, I have frequently directed people to IPOARM. I've watched all your YouTube videos and read your major posts, and I've performed the calculations in their entirety. (By those calculations, the 1600s is indeed where I'd land.)
That said, I've had far more specific tests and measurements done that any online calculator can approach, modified by you or not. (Just as an example, the online body fat percentage calculator, even with very precise body measurements, is still 6.3 percentage points off. My calculated BMR was even further off-base, given that I've had indirect calorimetry tests that put my BMR in the 900s.) So while the tools you provide are certainly very useful for many people, it's not a good idea for you to suggest that it applies to over 99% of people, or that there's no such thing as a special snowflake, or especially that I should override the specific dietary guidelines given to me by a team of endocrinologists, internists, and dietitians specializing in PCOS in favor of guidelines you have gleaned from a few stats I've posted here. You are essentially telling me to turn down the professional medical advice of several of the most highly trained and renowned researchers in the field of PCOS research, in order to listen to the advice of a guy on the internet. That would be incredibly reckless of me, especially considering that as I have already stated, less trained dietitians and doctors have put me on higher-calorie diet and exercise regimes that only resulted in continued weight gain.
Dan, you are a very helpful and kind-hearted member of this community, but you have no place telling someone to ignore doctor's orders.
You say you'd be glad to police any of your supporters who "bashed" low-calorie dieters; I can't say whether they're members of your group or not, but you only have to look at this thread to see numerous posters claiming that they have better advice than doctors, and that their recommendations are to be trusted above that of a medical professional. You're putting yourself into that unfortunate category here.
When you're addressing obese and morbidly obese individuals in particular, people for whom weight loss isn't about aesthetics but a matter of life and death, suggesting that your advice trumps that of a doctor who has seen and interviewed and examined that person is very irresponsible. You're dealing with a population at a significantly increased risk of heart disease, stroke, diabetes, and a huge host of cancers (endometrial, ovarian, colorectal, breast, cervical, prostate, gall bladder, pancreatic, hepatic, and renal). There's a reason that many doctors prescribe low-calorie diets that you might consider radical for obese patients: because taking the "slow and steady" approach that at least some IPOARM and EMTWL proponents have suggested, where you could take two months to lose ten pounds, could actually be fatal for those patients. According to the World Health Organization, even a loss of 5-10kg in a year can reduce mortality for the morbidly obese by up to 25%. (http://whqlibdoc.who.int/trs/WHO_TRS_894_(part4).pdf, page 202).
Here's one hard fact about dietary science: it's a field that's still very much in development. However appealing it might be, you can't boil weight loss down to a one-size-fits-all formula. There are differences in body chemistry, hormones, psychology, and a host of other areas that complicate things. Just as an example, in your post you recommend that I lift weights a few hours a week; according to my reproductive endocrinologist, though, recent studies are revealing that added muscle mass can actually aggravate hormone imbalances for women with PCOS! Does that mean that women with PCOS can't lift? Of course not, but it DOES mean that you can't assume that lifting will help them, and (again) it's unethical (and technically illegal in some states) to advise people to go against medical consult. (Hence the little legal disclaimer at the bottom of the forum.)
Again, at the heart of my original post is my urging that people continue to direct others towards additional resource, but stop thinking that they know those others and their physiologies better than those people themselves and their doctors. I appreciate your congenial tone and your good intentions here, but you should know that it comes across as insulting to my years of tests, consultations, and personal experience to suggest that giving me a few hundred more calories and sending me to the gym three days a week would be a game-changer for me when I am already, as stated, seeing a 1-2 pound weight loss per week, increasing my physical activity, experiencing more energy, better blood workups, better heart performance, and no weakness, constant hunger, or loss of lean body mass.Natalie,
I believe the word you are looking for is "validity"!
Is IPOARM a valid solution to your weight loss?
Is a VLCD better for you?
I think you see bashing where we are in fact pointing out inconsistencies in the VLCD community.
For instance today a post went up in success stories about a woman eating "1200cals a day".
The fact is she showed us no valid examples of why her low calorie diet was any better or worse than IPOARM or EMTWL.
In fact she didn't post any stats except her total weight loss.
When asked for more info by me and our higher cal team she pretty much ignored what we asked.
We have some members who are in your same position.
Overweight, diabetes, pcos, you name it.
I have yet to hear a solid complaint about eating higher cals.
In fact when done correctly most of my members are losing fat.
Just as IPOARM states "this is a fat loss program".
So if you are ever interested in trying this out I'd be more than happy to take about 30 mins of my time and hash out all the details of your weight loss program.
Ill have you somewhere in the 1600-1800 and lifting weights about 3 hours a week.
Just send a PM.
And if you ever see a Road Mapper bashing anyone please let me know.
Ill handle the PR side of my group.
Good luck on your journey!
You GO, girl! :flowerforyou:0 -
I must have missed the part where Dan told you to ignore your doctor.0
-
I must have missed the part where Dan told you to ignore your doctor.
"Ill have you somewhere in the 1600-1800 and lifting weights about 3 hours a week."
that would be going against the plan her dr has her on.0 -
I must have missed the part where Dan told you to ignore your doctor.
Same here. Eh, do what you want and the next time someone eating 1200 calories starts asking for advice because it isn't working for them, I'll just keep my mouth shut and let people tell them to hang in there or worse, tell them to get in less by not eating the 500+ daily exercise calories. They'll either succeed, end up sick or give up. But at least people won't accuse those suggesting to eat more as bashing or bullying.
ETA - this is not against those who are following doctor's orders. In those cases, I would, and have, suggested people talk to their doctors and follow their advice and not those of strangers on the internet.0 -
I must have missed the part where Dan told you to ignore your doctor.
Same here. Eh, do what you want and the next time someone eating 1200 calories starts asking for advice because it isn't working for them, I'll just keep my mouth shut and let people tell them to hang in there or worse, tell them to get in less by not eating the 500+ daily exercise calories. They'll either succeed, end up sick or give up. But at least people won't accuse those suggesting to eat more as bashing or bullying.
The one good thing is that if they give up and leave this site, we won't have to worry about biting our tongues when they ask for advice anymore. :flowerforyou:0 -
I must have missed the part where Dan told you to ignore your doctor.
Same here. Eh, do what you want and the next time someone eating 1200 calories starts asking for advice because it isn't working for them, I'll just keep my mouth shut and let people tell them to hang in there or worse, tell them to get in less by not eating the 500+ daily exercise calories. They'll either succeed, end up sick or give up. But at least people won't accuse those suggesting to eat more as bashing or bullying.
The one good thing is that if they give up and leave this site, we won't have to worry about biting our tongues when they ask for advice anymore. :flowerforyou:
Very true..lol. :happy:0 -
except for that what the op is talking about is the verbal attacks, not the advice... huge difference.0
-
except for that what the op is talking about is the verbal attacks, not the advice... huge difference.
People give advice in a "blunt" tone and are called "meanies" for it. If you disagree with someone's post, suddenly you are attacking them and bashing them. If you give advice, you are hating on them and so on. Not really much of a difference here most of the time..lol.0 -
The problem is we put too much faith in a person who may have a PHD but not have proper knowledge in nutrition.
This is like the docs that prescribe GBP surgery even when it has a 5% long term success rate.
Not to mention the fact that eating that low tends to slow the metabolism.
So what happens when you get to goal?
Listen, my plan is either viable to your weight loss or it isn't.
If you can't handle the forums then go elsewhere but don't call me out when you don't know what you're talking about.
And the fact that even after calling out IPOARM you must have missed the part where I offered to help you.
I never said go against your doctor but you'd be a fool to think he had the only choice for fat loss.
Go talk to a "certified dietician" or a "registered nutritionist" in your state and move on.
And for gods sake leave me out of your gripe session.
I have people with worse metabolic condition than you losing fat at nearly 2k a day.0 -
joylia, i dont really care what anyones advice is. you could advice me to wipe only once to save a tree, and it would go straight out the door... i dont care what anyone thinks. however, some people do... theres a difference between advise, and discouraging others for no other reasons other than wanting to be jerks. thats a difference. like this... heres advice, "i dont feel pretty, what can i do to look prettier?" "you can put on some make-up and dress a little nicer..." ok, so, thats advice... then theres this... "my post on why 85% of women are ugly..." see, theres a difference... one is advice, the other is just being a jerk.0
-
I want to make a very brief reply to this:
I started out about 4 or 5 years ago at 372 pounds. I joined Jenny Craig and was put on 2250 calories a day. I dropped weight easily, even without exercise. Life happened, and I couldn't afford Jenny Craig anymore, so I started on Atkin's. All told, I got down to 290 pounds, eating a fair amount of food. With PCOS.
I moved, I joined the Y, and I started exercising and WEIGHT TRAINING. I got down to 272.
Fast forward to about a year ago and well, I won't go into the gory details, but after living with my in-laws for over a year, watching them tear my house to shreds, and then watching my fiance almost bleed to death on the kitchen floor, I kind of sank into a pretty crippling depression. I got back up to 325. In a hurry.
Now I'm back on the wagon. I've been around here for a while, trying to read and absorb. Listening to the 'everything in moderation crowd'.
Here is what works for me and what does not. With PCOS, but otherwise, fairly normal bloodwork and blood pressure. Eat everything in moderation? No. Dieting only to lose weight? Everyone says it works, but it really doesn't. What works is moderating carb intake, eliminating heavily processed carbs and added sugars. And busting my *kitten* at the gym. And yes, this includes weight lifting. Once you start reducing body fat, you reduce the estrogen in your body, and this causes the testosterone to drop. I can't speak to people who have doctor recommended extreme cuts, but I will say this. There are not a lot of doctors that specialize in nutrition. It's a fairly long confusing topic, and can require years of study.
This. Most doctors are only required to take one nutrition course. Honestly, I don't trust my doctors, because they recommend whatever the government recommends, and the government is all about low-fat processed crap and shizloads of grains. Which in my opinion isn't healthy, but that's just me. :drinker:0 -
Dan, I really appreciate the very good intentions in this offer and I am very glad you are willing to address your followers. I don't think pointing out their bashing is so necessary when it is so prevalent, but I'll gladly do that or respond on my own when I have the time. And I definitely appreciate the great resources you provide this community with IPOARM, which are invaluable for a great many people here; as I've said several times on this thread, I have frequently directed people to IPOARM. I've watched all your YouTube videos and read your major posts, and I've performed the calculations in their entirety. (By those calculations, the 1600s is indeed where I'd land.)
That said, I've had far more specific tests and measurements done that any online calculator can approach, modified by you or not. (Just as an example, the online body fat percentage calculator, even with very precise body measurements, is still 6.3 percentage points off. My calculated BMR was even further off-base, given that I've had indirect calorimetry tests that put my BMR in the 900s.) So while the tools you provide are certainly very useful for many people, it's not a good idea for you to suggest that it applies to over 99% of people, or that there's no such thing as a special snowflake, or especially that I should override the specific dietary guidelines given to me by a team of endocrinologists, internists, and dietitians specializing in PCOS in favor of guidelines you have gleaned from a few stats I've posted here. You are essentially telling me to turn down the professional medical advice of several of the most highly trained and renowned researchers in the field of PCOS research, in order to listen to the advice of a guy on the internet. That would be incredibly reckless of me, especially considering that as I have already stated, less trained dietitians and doctors have put me on higher-calorie diet and exercise regimes that only resulted in continued weight gain.
Dan, you are a very helpful and kind-hearted member of this community, but you have no place telling someone to ignore doctor's orders.
You say you'd be glad to police any of your supporters who "bashed" low-calorie dieters; I can't say whether they're members of your group or not, but you only have to look at this thread to see numerous posters claiming that they have better advice than doctors, and that their recommendations are to be trusted above that of a medical professional. You're putting yourself into that unfortunate category here.
When you're addressing obese and morbidly obese individuals in particular, people for whom weight loss isn't about aesthetics but a matter of life and death, suggesting that your advice trumps that of a doctor who has seen and interviewed and examined that person is very irresponsible. You're dealing with a population at a significantly increased risk of heart disease, stroke, diabetes, and a huge host of cancers (endometrial, ovarian, colorectal, breast, cervical, prostate, gall bladder, pancreatic, hepatic, and renal). There's a reason that many doctors prescribe low-calorie diets that you might consider radical for obese patients: because taking the "slow and steady" approach that at least some IPOARM and EMTWL proponents have suggested, where you could take two months to lose ten pounds, could actually be fatal for those patients. According to the World Health Organization, even a loss of 5-10kg in a year can reduce mortality for the morbidly obese by up to 25%. (http://whqlibdoc.who.int/trs/WHO_TRS_894_(part4).pdf, page 202).
Here's one hard fact about dietary science: it's a field that's still very much in development. However appealing it might be, you can't boil weight loss down to a one-size-fits-all formula. There are differences in body chemistry, hormones, psychology, and a host of other areas that complicate things. Just as an example, in your post you recommend that I lift weights a few hours a week; according to my reproductive endocrinologist, though, recent studies are revealing that added muscle mass can actually aggravate hormone imbalances for women with PCOS! Does that mean that women with PCOS can't lift? Of course not, but it DOES mean that you can't assume that lifting will help them, and (again) it's unethical (and technically illegal in some states) to advise people to go against medical consult. (Hence the little legal disclaimer at the bottom of the forum.)
Again, at the heart of my original post is my urging that people continue to direct others towards additional resource, but stop thinking that they know those others and their physiologies better than those people themselves and their doctors. I appreciate your congenial tone and your good intentions here, but you should know that it comes across as insulting to my years of tests, consultations, and personal experience to suggest that giving me a few hundred more calories and sending me to the gym three days a week would be a game-changer for me when I am already, as stated, seeing a 1-2 pound weight loss per week, increasing my physical activity, experiencing more energy, better blood workups, better heart performance, and no weakness, constant hunger, or loss of lean body mass.Natalie,
I believe the word you are looking for is "validity"!
Is IPOARM a valid solution to your weight loss?
Is a VLCD better for you?
I think you see bashing where we are in fact pointing out inconsistencies in the VLCD community.
For instance today a post went up in success stories about a woman eating "1200cals a day".
The fact is she showed us no valid examples of why her low calorie diet was any better or worse than IPOARM or EMTWL.
In fact she didn't post any stats except her total weight loss.
When asked for more info by me and our higher cal team she pretty much ignored what we asked.
We have some members who are in your same position.
Overweight, diabetes, pcos, you name it.
I have yet to hear a solid complaint about eating higher cals.
In fact when done correctly most of my members are losing fat.
Just as IPOARM states "this is a fat loss program".
So if you are ever interested in trying this out I'd be more than happy to take about 30 mins of my time and hash out all the details of your weight loss program.
Ill have you somewhere in the 1600-1800 and lifting weights about 3 hours a week.
Just send a PM.
And if you ever see a Road Mapper bashing anyone please let me know.
Ill handle the PR side of my group.
Good luck on your journey!
I don't think anything should have came across as "insulting" to you. He never asserted he knows more than a medical professional. He only said if you do ever want to give it a try, he'll be glad to help.
I get the point of your op. "Before jumping on someone for eating low calories, you should see if they have any medical reason to be on a low calorie plan." That's all that needs to be said honestly.
Getting into "oh this comes across as insulting to me with my years of research blahblahblah" comes a bit like you, yourself are on the same high horse that you say some of the IPOARM people are on.0 -
thanks for this - all sides should be heard0
-
Funny thing is I talked to my group before January.
"Gang! The resolutions are coming! Make sure we don't treat our way of life as a crusade!"
I used to try to shove IPOARM down people's throat and frankly it made me miserable.
Now I'm happy.
5'6" 11% body fat.
38 but I look 25.
Just be smart about your choices.
Eat right
Lift right
Walk right
Sleep right
And it simply happens.
Good luck.0 -
That would be if she did it. But he did not tell her to ignore her doctor. Those are not the same thing. You totally quote mined him by ignoring the previous sentence that put it in context:I must have missed the part where Dan told you to ignore your doctor.
"Ill have you somewhere in the 1600-1800 and lifting weights about 3 hours a week."
that would be going against the plan her dr has her on.So if you are ever interested in trying this out I'd be more than happy to take about 30 mins of my time and hash out all the details of your weight loss program.
Ill have you somewhere in the 1600-1800 and lifting weights about 3 hours a week.
Just send a PM.0 -
You missed the rest, where she said it's not your business if anyone has a medical condition, and you are insulting them by even asking, and it's not their job to tell you their medical history, so therefore it is never ever ever your business why anyone is on 1200 or less and you should never ever ask or you might offend them.I get the point of your op. "Before jumping on someone for eating low calories, you should see if they have any medical reason to be on a low calorie plan." That's all that needs to be said honestly.
Her point ultimately is that she has found a way to be offended at any attempt to suggest to anyone eating 1200 calories that there might be other options, regardless of circumstances and no matter what you say or how you say it. As far as I can tell, the only thing she thinks you are allowed to say to anyone eating 1200 calories is, "you're my hero!"0
This discussion has been closed.
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