Ending 1200 Calorie Bashing: Respecting Your Peers

Mcgrawhaha

except for that what the op is talking about is the verbal attacks, not the advice... huge difference.

PikaKnight

except for that what the op is talking about is the verbal attacks, not the advice... huge difference.

People give advice in a "blunt" tone and are called "meanies" for it. If you disagree with someone's post, suddenly you are attacking them and bashing them. If you give advice, you are hating on them and so on. Not really much of a difference here most of the time..lol.

Helloitsdan

The problem is we put too much faith in a person who may have a PHD but not have proper knowledge in nutrition.
This is like the docs that prescribe GBP surgery even when it has a 5% long term success rate.
Not to mention the fact that eating that low tends to slow the metabolism.
So what happens when you get to goal?
Listen, my plan is either viable to your weight loss or it isn't.
If you can't handle the forums then go elsewhere but don't call me out when you don't know what you're talking about.
And the fact that even after calling out IPOARM you must have missed the part where I offered to help you.

I never said go against your doctor but you'd be a fool to think he had the only choice for fat loss.
Go talk to a "certified dietician" or a "registered nutritionist" in your state and move on.

And for gods sake leave me out of your gripe session.
I have people with worse metabolic condition than you losing fat at nearly 2k a day.

Mcgrawhaha

joylia, i dont really care what anyones advice is. you could advice me to wipe only once to save a tree, and it would go straight out the door... i dont care what anyone thinks. however, some people do... theres a difference between advise, and discouraging others for no other reasons other than wanting to be jerks. thats a difference. like this... heres advice, "i dont feel pretty, what can i do to look prettier?" "you can put on some make-up and dress a little nicer..." ok, so, thats advice... then theres this... "my post on why 85% of women are ugly..." see, theres a difference... one is advice, the other is just being a jerk.

oddyogi

I want to make a very brief reply to this:

I started out about 4 or 5 years ago at 372 pounds. I joined Jenny Craig and was put on 2250 calories a day. I dropped weight easily, even without exercise. Life happened, and I couldn't afford Jenny Craig anymore, so I started on Atkin's. All told, I got down to 290 pounds, eating a fair amount of food. With PCOS.

I moved, I joined the Y, and I started exercising and WEIGHT TRAINING. I got down to 272.

Fast forward to about a year ago and well, I won't go into the gory details, but after living with my in-laws for over a year, watching them tear my house to shreds, and then watching my fiance almost bleed to death on the kitchen floor, I kind of sank into a pretty crippling depression. I got back up to 325. In a hurry.

Now I'm back on the wagon. I've been around here for a while, trying to read and absorb. Listening to the 'everything in moderation crowd'.

Here is what works for me and what does not. With PCOS, but otherwise, fairly normal bloodwork and blood pressure. Eat everything in moderation? No. Dieting only to lose weight? Everyone says it works, but it really doesn't. What works is moderating carb intake, eliminating heavily processed carbs and added sugars. And busting my *kitten* at the gym. And yes, this includes weight lifting. Once you start reducing body fat, you reduce the estrogen in your body, and this causes the testosterone to drop. I can't speak to people who have doctor recommended extreme cuts, but I will say this. There are not a lot of doctors that specialize in nutrition. It's a fairly long confusing topic, and can require years of study.

This. Most doctors are only required to take one nutrition course. Honestly, I don't trust my doctors, because they recommend whatever the government recommends, and the government is all about low-fat processed crap and shizloads of grains. Which in my opinion isn't healthy, but that's just me. :drinker:

onyxgirl17

Dan, I really appreciate the very good intentions in this offer and I am very glad you are willing to address your followers. I don't think pointing out their bashing is so necessary when it is so prevalent, but I'll gladly do that or respond on my own when I have the time. And I definitely appreciate the great resources you provide this community with IPOARM, which are invaluable for a great many people here; as I've said several times on this thread, I have frequently directed people to IPOARM. I've watched all your YouTube videos and read your major posts, and I've performed the calculations in their entirety. (By those calculations, the 1600s is indeed where I'd land.)

That said, I've had far more specific tests and measurements done that any online calculator can approach, modified by you or not. (Just as an example, the online body fat percentage calculator, even with very precise body measurements, is still 6.3 percentage points off. My calculated BMR was even further off-base, given that I've had indirect calorimetry tests that put my BMR in the 900s.) So while the tools you provide are certainly very useful for many people, it's not a good idea for you to suggest that it applies to over 99% of people, or that there's no such thing as a special snowflake, or especially that I should override the specific dietary guidelines given to me by a team of endocrinologists, internists, and dietitians specializing in PCOS in favor of guidelines you have gleaned from a few stats I've posted here. You are essentially telling me to turn down the professional medical advice of several of the most highly trained and renowned researchers in the field of PCOS research, in order to listen to the advice of a guy on the internet. That would be incredibly reckless of me, especially considering that as I have already stated, less trained dietitians and doctors have put me on higher-calorie diet and exercise regimes that only resulted in continued weight gain.

Dan, you are a very helpful and kind-hearted member of this community, but you have no place telling someone to ignore doctor's orders.

You say you'd be glad to police any of your supporters who "bashed" low-calorie dieters; I can't say whether they're members of your group or not, but you only have to look at this thread to see numerous posters claiming that they have better advice than doctors, and that their recommendations are to be trusted above that of a medical professional. You're putting yourself into that unfortunate category here.

When you're addressing obese and morbidly obese individuals in particular, people for whom weight loss isn't about aesthetics but a matter of life and death, suggesting that your advice trumps that of a doctor who has seen and interviewed and examined that person is very irresponsible. You're dealing with a population at a significantly increased risk of heart disease, stroke, diabetes, and a huge host of cancers (endometrial, ovarian, colorectal, breast, cervical, prostate, gall bladder, pancreatic, hepatic, and renal). There's a reason that many doctors prescribe low-calorie diets that you might consider radical for obese patients: because taking the "slow and steady" approach that at least some IPOARM and EMTWL proponents have suggested, where you could take two months to lose ten pounds, could actually be fatal for those patients. According to the World Health Organization, even a loss of 5-10kg in a year can reduce mortality for the morbidly obese by up to 25%. (http://whqlibdoc.who.int/trs/WHO_TRS_894_(part4).pdf, page 202).

Here's one hard fact about dietary science: it's a field that's still very much in development. However appealing it might be, you can't boil weight loss down to a one-size-fits-all formula. There are differences in body chemistry, hormones, psychology, and a host of other areas that complicate things. Just as an example, in your post you recommend that I lift weights a few hours a week; according to my reproductive endocrinologist, though, recent studies are revealing that added muscle mass can actually aggravate hormone imbalances for women with PCOS! Does that mean that women with PCOS can't lift? Of course not, but it DOES mean that you can't assume that lifting will help them, and (again) it's unethical (and technically illegal in some states) to advise people to go against medical consult. (Hence the little legal disclaimer at the bottom of the forum.)

Again, at the heart of my original post is my urging that people continue to direct others towards additional resource, but stop thinking that they know those others and their physiologies better than those people themselves and their doctors. I appreciate your congenial tone and your good intentions here, but you should know that it comes across as insulting to my years of tests, consultations, and personal experience to suggest that giving me a few hundred more calories and sending me to the gym three days a week would be a game-changer for me when I am already, as stated, seeing a 1-2 pound weight loss per week, increasing my physical activity, experiencing more energy, better blood workups, better heart performance, and no weakness, constant hunger, or loss of lean body mass.

Natalie,

I believe the word you are looking for is "validity"!

Is IPOARM a valid solution to your weight loss?
Is a VLCD better for you?
I think you see bashing where we are in fact pointing out inconsistencies in the VLCD community.
For instance today a post went up in success stories about a woman eating "1200cals a day".
The fact is she showed us no valid examples of why her low calorie diet was any better or worse than IPOARM or EMTWL.
In fact she didn't post any stats except her total weight loss.
When asked for more info by me and our higher cal team she pretty much ignored what we asked.

We have some members who are in your same position.
Overweight, diabetes, pcos, you name it.
I have yet to hear a solid complaint about eating higher cals.
In fact when done correctly most of my members are losing fat.
Just as IPOARM states "this is a fat loss program".

So if you are ever interested in trying this out I'd be more than happy to take about 30 mins of my time and hash out all the details of your weight loss program.
Ill have you somewhere in the 1600-1800 and lifting weights about 3 hours a week.
Just send a PM.

And if you ever see a Road Mapper bashing anyone please let me know.
Ill handle the PR side of my group.

Good luck on your journey!

I don't think anything should have came across as "insulting" to you. He never asserted he knows more than a medical professional. He only said if you do ever want to give it a try, he'll be glad to help.

I get the point of your op. "Before jumping on someone for eating low calories, you should see if they have any medical reason to be on a low calorie plan." That's all that needs to be said honestly.

Getting into "oh this comes across as insulting to me with my years of research blahblahblah" comes a bit like you, yourself are on the same high horse that you say some of the IPOARM people are on.

pondmermaid

thanks for this - all sides should be heard

Helloitsdan

Funny thing is I talked to my group before January.
"Gang! The resolutions are coming! Make sure we don't treat our way of life as a crusade!"

I used to try to shove IPOARM down people's throat and frankly it made me miserable.
Now I'm happy.
5'6" 11% body fat.
38 but I look 25.

Just be smart about your choices.
Eat right
Lift right
Walk right
Sleep right

And it simply happens.

Good luck.

LiftAllThePizzas

I must have missed the part where Dan told you to ignore your doctor.

"Ill have you somewhere in the 1600-1800 and lifting weights about 3 hours a week."

that would be going against the plan her dr has her on.

That would be if she did it. But he did not tell her to ignore her doctor. Those are not the same thing. You totally quote mined him by ignoring the previous sentence that put it in context:

So if you are ever interested in trying this out I'd be more than happy to take about 30 mins of my time and hash out all the details of your weight loss program.
Ill have you somewhere in the 1600-1800 and lifting weights about 3 hours a week.
Just send a PM.

LiftAllThePizzas

I get the point of your op. "Before jumping on someone for eating low calories, you should see if they have any medical reason to be on a low calorie plan." That's all that needs to be said honestly.

You missed the rest, where she said it's not your business if anyone has a medical condition, and you are insulting them by even asking, and it's not their job to tell you their medical history, so therefore it is never ever ever your business why anyone is on 1200 or less and you should never ever ask or you might offend them.

Her point ultimately is that she has found a way to be offended at any attempt to suggest to anyone eating 1200 calories that there might be other options, regardless of circumstances and no matter what you say or how you say it. As far as I can tell, the only thing she thinks you are allowed to say to anyone eating 1200 calories is, "you're my hero!"

peachea

Natalie, you are not a doctor either. You are simply the one who has to make the choice to trust one or the other. Given your medical condition, go ahead and do your plan as prescribed by your 'medical team'. If it works for you, then you have gained not only a better faith in healthcare, but a well being that is invaluable.

If by chance, the prescribed plan does not work for you, then consider other avenues. One being what has been proposed to you by others.

Ultimately it is your choice, and many of us do understand your 'need' to be well. In fact, regardless of medical conditions, most obese people feel that urge and will generally cling to anything to ensure this. Perfectly normal, just make sure that what youre committing to is right for you.

I know some info about PCOS, but I'm sure I dont have it. However, I've begun menopause, and have hormonal issues which also mimic PCOS and am fairly quite well on 1700 cals a day. Its really not that much of a jump from 1200. So I'm not sure what your reverse stink is really all about.

I mean in essence, isnt your back lash against eating higher calories equivalent to a lashing to those who are for it?

I will say that after reading Dan's response to you, it was very charitable of him to want to help. I had to practically chase him down just to get some answers. Clearly a little gratitude would be in order.

With that said, if all else fails, try whatever is next for you but please spare us the threads about how upset you are with how you are treated for being on a 1200 cal diet. Your only job here is to get on with your life, being healthy and living it and trying not to give a **** what others think. Do what you gotta do.

The rest of this is just crap in a box. And without the risk of sounding too harsh, your post seems to conjure up an image of one who believes she is quite unique, and woe is her to be so heavy. Rest assured young lady, you are not special. We are all here for the same reasons. All in different places on the journey and some are harder than others. Life is the same. Take what you need and go. This forum thrives on variety. You may one day find yourself in a knowledgeable position and who knows how you may approach others down the road.

onyxgirl17

I get the point of your op. "Before jumping on someone for eating low calories, you should see if they have any medical reason to be on a low calorie plan." That's all that needs to be said honestly.

You missed the rest, where she said it's not your business if anyone has a medical condition, and you are insulting them by even asking, and it's not their job to tell you their medical history, so therefore it is never ever ever your business why anyone is on 1200 or less and you should never ever ask or you might offend them.

Her point ultimately is that she has found a way to be offended at any attempt to suggest to anyone eating 1200 calories that there might be other options, regardless of circumstances and no matter what you say or how you say it. As far as I can tell, the only thing she thinks you are allowed to say to anyone eating 1200 calories is, "you're my hero!"

yep! Because the rest was TL; DR

Thanks for summarizing.

jmzz1

bump for later reading

LiftAllThePizzas

yep! Because the rest was TL; DR

Thanks for summarizing.

No problem, glad to help.

taunto

Heres the thing. Dan said whatever he said (I didn't really read what he said, I am supposed to be at work). And if a friend of his is upset because of somethign she thinks was juvenile, well, thats her right.

However, for her to go around and post a pic about it, specially since that conversation seem to include others who weren't Dan, its kinda invading their privacy.

Maybe post somethign like "Hey Dan, you said blah blah blah about me. I have pics to prove it. You're a rude person for talking behind somebodys back and you're immature" then that is understandable but posting a pic, even that of a friend, is also not right. Specially since it includes people who weren't her or Dan (I am assuming).

Helloitsdan

I run 100s of numbers and for free.
If my numbers didn't work then don't drag my name across the forum.
From what I can glean from the long post was she didn't want people, specifically me and anyone from ipoarm telling anyone how to manage their diet.
Where did this even come from?
I always thought if you have an issue with someone you go to the source.
and where was the reespect in the OP?
What a joke!

invincible_summer

Dear MFP Community,

I've been a member for years and I felt unwelcome in forums before because I am on a doctor-recommended 1100-1200 calorie diet. This time around I've really dug my heels in and made great friends in the community--lots of friends who share my struggles with Polycystic Ovarian Syndrom (PCOS) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Over the past few weeks, it has become more and more apparent that my friends and I are fearful of contributing to forums. When we say we are on low-calorie diets, you send us info from In Place of a Road Map (IPOARM). You tell us we are starving ourselves and that we are going to fail.

I have PCOS and I've (for the most part) stuck to 1200 calories a day since last August. Although I was never over weight in terms of BMI, I've gone from 143lb to my current 124.8lb. I'd like to get down to 115lb and I'm still losing at a nice steady rate.

Being a strict vegan has definitely helped me manage my weight. Lots of wholemeal bread and little sugar too.

nataliescalories

Posting the screen shot isn't the most awesome thing in this thread, but it does prove once and for all that there has been much too much judgement and bashing. We can argue left and right about what MFP will consider private in these terms. Should a moderator speak with me, I'll gladly remove it. We'll cross that bridge when and if we should come to it. And if that one post is removed--we will be left with a handful of nay sayers who tried to pull negative from what is an incredibly positive thread.

I've had, much to my surprise, hundreds of messages and friend requests in just 24 short hours. I cannot believe the overwhelmingly positive response from people who are trying their best to become healthy or stay healthy in the face of so many challenges. I in no way feel like it's Natalie vs. Dan. I respect those who have defended my point. And I'll say it one last time (though I must have said it 100 times already): Dan is probably a pretty decent guy. Dan spends his time running numbers and stuff for people and filling in a certain gap on MFP. However, no one should attack anyone's person and I still have not done that--though I have certainly tried to reveal an underlying disdain tainting our community.

Nobody in this community ever deserves to, publicly or privately, denigrate someone's person. Nobody should feel scared to talk here. Nobody should be afraid of being a freaking snowflake.

I don't think anyone loves that I posted that picture. It probably makes everyone cringe. It sure as heck hurt me a lot. Nay sayers--don't bother rambling that it's the internet and I need a thick skin. The internet is a part of society and I was called a B**** in front of hundreds of people. We need to be accountable on the internet. We have diaries and friends on here to increase our accountability! When my friends, not even 1% of them even said the faintest thing about Dan's character, I shot it down and focused on how personal attacks are reprehensible. I only ask for others to do the same.

I never attacked IPOARM. If you dare accuse me of that--be sure to carefully reread everything first. It never happened, not in the slightest. I was friends with Dan in the first place and had sent him a personal message long before this thread mentioning how kind it was to calculate numbers for people. And hey--maybe Dan was having a bad day today. I don't care about this one instance as much as I care about the environment that supports it and feeds it.

Among those friend requests I've had were messages from dozens of people on the verge of quitting MFP because of that tone. That's tragic. This place is an essential resource. Again, in a society where 1/3 of Americans suffer from obesity, why would we ever push people seeking weight loss help away or make them feel unwelcome? Why has there been any angry response to what I originally posted? It never attacked anyone. It never told anyone how to eat. It never told anyone how not to eat. It told people be nice; try to find a nicer way to communicate concerns.

Respect is where this thread began and it is where I hope it will continue.

neanderthin

Ever think this could be triggering and some of the compliments and support are from exactly those people. How many times have I've looked at a diary of someone that's eating 1200 and eating half that.

lorgrayson

I have read some of those posts and I think it is not "one size fits all". I know that my resting metabolism is less than calculators on websites because I wore a body bug and had the actual amount. My nutritionist gave me a daily amount of 1250, whereas my doctor told me 1500 - 1700. So I eat anywhere from 1250 - 1700 according to my hunger. When I eat closer to that 1250, I lose weight. During PMS time or when I exercise a lot - 1250 is not enough. Listen to your body. Do what works for you and don't get so offended by some people on MFP. I think at the heart of it most people are trying to be helpful.