Ending 1200 Calorie Bashing: Respecting Your Peers

carpar16

Natalie, you are simply amazing. I am so glad I came across this post. Keep working and you will find your success. Good for you for getting medical advice before starting, I know I didn't and most people don't.

firstsip

This is a really awesome, well thought out, intelligent post. It's amazing to see that some people have still found a way to pick it apart, but that just goes to show you the mentality of some people. Keep up the good work! :happy:

If you consider always questioning and staying open to further mental growth a negative, I suppose that would seem like a bad mentality.

hahaahaha! I feel like we're trolling this thread. But we're not. It's weird.

Gah, I know! It bothers me that even a sliver of difference from, "Yeah, awesome!" becomes "HORRIBLE, NEGATIVE" on here (this isn't to you, OP).

And again, I get much of what you're saying, OP; I'm a "special snowflake" in terms of weight gain, as I had tremendous issues with cortisol and adrenal function combined (and due to) thryoidtoxicosis (all without a thyroid!). I get how hearing and seeing majority information can become chafing when you're sitting there thinking, "Well, *I* wasn't like that, so there must be others like me." That's true, but again... it's the minority. And it never undermines the science behind the human body.

Again, OP, look at some of the responses to this; Emma and I see what you're saying. The danger here is that ALREADY so many people have thought that your story makes it "okay for them" to eat at a rate that is, ultimately, not sustainable for proper body function. Weight loss? Sure. Mental function, immune system strength, functioning metabolism? Not so much.

It's unfortunate that people aren't fully comprehending your message. Good luck with your progress (and your PhD!), OP.

firstsip

already, multiple people have not quite grasped your post or its intent, and have already gone to the "okay for me!" issue.

Do I dare ask what's wrong with people saying that, and why you feel the need to tell them that their belief that it's "okay for me" is wrong?

There is nothing wrong with a 1200 calorie cut, as long as they eat more once they reach their goal weight. Cutting and maintaining are two different things.

If you consider always questioning and staying open to further mental growth a negative, I suppose that would seem like a bad mentality.

Not for nothing, most of us ARE keeping open minds, trying to separate fact from fiction, and we just, on a most basic level, find fault with the logic that "eating less than a certain level will cause stagnation or weight gain"

It's much more likely that those who eat at too drastic of a calorie cut make up for that difference by NOT working out as often. Correlation does not equal causation.

Eating too little does NOT cause weight loss cessation, the associated drop in your metabolic rate would cause that. How do we keep our metabolism up while maintaining a decent calorie cut? Exercise.

You don't have to Eat More 2 Weigh Less, you have to eat less AND move more. Funny how half of that argument is always ignored. Eating a bit above the bottom of the hardest cut you can take will allow you to make better exercise choices today, tomorrow, and the next day, but it is by no means a iron clad rule that should be spouted off as "truth".

ETA: I love you all though, and I'm sorry if my logic got in the way of your dogma

Sigh. Strawman is made of straw; you made several arguments to me to things I never said or implied.

I appreciate the time and energy OP took to make this post, and said what I came to say, which was simply agreeing with Emma and pointing out further evidence for what she claimed. I won't bite.

Emma_Problema

Really, the special snowflake thing is just disdainful. It's really sad that that's part of your contribution. It's also just inaccurate. As I quoted in my original post--there are VAST differences in metabolisms; just because you plug something into a calculator does not make it accurate. If I see someone eating 1200 calories who hasn't gotten medical consult, then I always recommend IPOARM as a fantastic starting point. Enough already with the negative flippant comments.

Love,
A Special Snowflake--Just Like You

I'm sorry that the use of the term "special snowflake" made all of my points invalid to you and that you couldn't seem to grasp what I was saying. I wasn't intending to attack, I was only intending to educate. I apologize if you saw that as negative and flippant. I hope you can understand why I want to reach out to others and promote nutritious eating and physical fitness rather than constant hunger and deprivation.

Love,
A special person in a pretty ordinary snowflake body

kariannmbc

Very well said! Everyone does have different caloric needs, and if your doctor put you on a 1100 - 1200 calorie allowance, ignore the rest of us. :-)

I was on 1200 calories, and I found that when I worked out too, I was a total grouch, so upping it a little worked for me (and made people around me not want to strangle me). But for one of my best friends, 1200 was exactly where she needed it.

Actually, I had to fight tooth and nail to see the specialists who brought me here. My first two nutritionists used caloric configurations like Dan (which again, work for most). They had tried 2600, 2400, 2000, etc with constant weight gain. I actually gained 25lbs in one month at 2600 calories. I also have severe intolerance to Metformin and cannot take birth control (due to the cancer risks in my immediate family). After nearly a year of dealing with horrible insurance issues, I got to a three-person team of a Reproductive Endocrinologist, an Internist specializing in PCOS, and a Nutritionist specializing in PCOS. They put me through probably 20 different tests for thyroid, diabetes, body composition, heart function, and indirect calorimeter testing. At the end, 1150 with 30 minutes of exercise five times a week is pretty much exactly where I begin to see consistent 1-2lb weight loss.

Even at that point, it has taken a great deal of experimentation to figure out the perfect distribution of macros and meal scheduling to keep me satiated and seeing progress at this calorie level.

This last part is why I find it so discouraging when someone having trouble at 1200 calories is met with such a knee-jerk negative reaction: because I know there are people like me who need to be at that level to see progress and I also know that it is possible to make a 1200 calorie diet delicious, fulfilling, and energizing--******IF****** that is an appropriate caloric intake for your metabolism.

I'm so glad you found something that works for you! Once you've found what works for you, you should definitely stick with it. There are definitely people who need to be around the 1200 mark, and that's great. Everyone is different, and what works for one person won't necessarily work for someone else, and I think there seem to be a few people I've seen on here that don't embrace that. Even with my sisters, we're all about the same height (within half an inch), and we all eat wildly different calorie amounts, and all losing at roughly the same rate (about a difference of 1000 between the highest and lowest eaters).

I think my point is: it is awesome you found what works for you! :happy: That seems to be the hardest part!

reenasamaan

AMEN, SISTER. !!

cwolfman13

I'll be honest and say that while your post is really important in that it's a great reminder that MFP is supposed to be a supportive community and not a bunch of attack dogs, I think there is a valuable reason behind why people discourage others from eating 1200 cal diets and refer people who do to IPOARM.

Not everyone has all of the issues you described - a lot of the people doing 1200 are not obese and do not have medical issues. You get to be the special snowflake. Not everyone can also afford to see dietitians or use a bod pod. Blanket advice is very useful and I would say that for 99% of people 1200 calories is too low. Metabolisms do vary, but that's why BMR uses an average and people are encouraged to play around with their numbers after giving eating more a try.

I'm also going to point out that saying "1200 calories is ok for me! It's ok for you too!" seems a bit irresponsable given that you are medically recommended to do so. I'm expecting swarms of "I do 1200 calories and I love it so everyone telling me to eat more should shut up" comments.

But yes. You are correct. Supportive community, blah blah. Play nice, blah blah.

I was going to say something similar...there is a huge difference between being obese and/or otherwise having a medical condition and/or doctor recommended dietary restriction and just needing to lose 10 cosmetic pounds. There's also a huge difference when one understands that 1,200 or whatever is the net goal on MFP...as in you're supposed to net to the goal, not shoot under it.

Pretty much any calculator I've used other than MFP gives a warning that a caloric deficit that big is potentially harmful and a doctor should be consulted...I wish MFP did that, it would save a lot of trouble.

kristafb

I applaud you for standing up for yourself (and the rest of us 1200 girls) with a lot of info to back it up. You & I have a lot in common, PCOS & IR and I couldn't take the birth control due to almost having a stroke in my 20s while on it.

I lost 50 lbs 2 years ago eating 1200 cals, with a lower carb (80-100gms). I then went to a new doctor who was not knowledgeable about PCOS and on his direction upped my calories to 1400 & ate a 'balanced' diet, based on the Canada FOod guide ( the food pyramid). Over the last 2 years I have slowly gained back that 50lbs plus about 20 more. I've gone back to the 1200 calories & under 100 carbs & have lost 6 days in 10 days, first loss I've seen in a very long time.

Thank you for this post & please to the people who don't agree or understand, please try to be kind when you give your 2 cents. I'm new to MFP but I have to say I've been shocked on more than one occasion by the snarky, mean comments thrown around here. Perhaps I'll head back to SParkpeople.com, In 8 years I've never once seen that mentality over there. Its too bad because this is a great site overall.

Siege_Tank

Sigh. Strawman is made of straw; you made several arguments to me to things I never said or implied.

I appreciate the time and energy OP took to make this post, and said what I came to say, which was simply agreeing with Emma and pointing out further evidence for what she claimed. I won't bite.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but what you say here:

The danger here is that ALREADY so many people have thought that your story makes it "okay for them" to eat at a rate that is, ultimately, not sustainable for proper body function. Weight loss? Sure. Mental function, immune system strength, functioning metabolism? Not so much.

Sounds exactly like this: Eating at less than your BMR is hazardous to your mental function, immune strength, and metabolism.

you, you....

You just forget to add that last little part, which is the quantifier. The end of the above sentence is WHEN YOU ARE AT A HEALTHY WEIGHT

Honestly tell me, how many of your "eat more, or risk damage" posts have been towards people who are AT their goal weight, or NEAR their goal weight?

Because then I'm right with you, if they have ten pounds or less to lose, feed them some fried chicken and eat at a less drastic cut - at some point, you just don't have the fat stores needed to maintain that kind of fat vampiring from your body. At people who are 15% bodyfat and below (for men, 20% bodyfat for women) your comments are not only relevant, but they are scholarly and wise.

RunDoozer

I want to say thank you for writing such a well thought out post. It's refreshing to see when the forums are so riddled with nonsensical comments these days.

That said I have to disagree with you on the subject of eating more than 1200 calories. Most overweight, but no medical problems people are expending way more energy than acceptable to be supported on a 1200 calorie diet. For every 1 person on this site that actually should be on a 1200 calorie diet there are 50 that shouldn't. You are one of those 1 in 50, but the other 50 need to be at least shown the information so they can make a decision about what works for them. In society today we are so programmed that low calorie diets are the way to go and 1200 is that magic number. Even though it isn't realistic for most. While they may lose weight, it is not a healthy way to go about it. Not only are they losing fat but also losing a ton of muscle at the same time. With such a caloric deficit the body is not getting the nutrition it requires to adequately needs. Also, this kind of deficit is hard to sustain for most people and causes a lot of people to either fall off the wagon or binge eat. Ultimately casing more weight gain in the end.

As far as peoples approach to how they handle it a yea there is probably some tact that needs to be applied. However, this is the internet and that plea is going to fall on deaf ears. Also, some people need to have it drilled into their head that they're hurting themselves. I don't pretend to be a doctor, but I do make educated responses on the certain individuals goals.

You have a medical condition that pretty much changes everything. There is a lot more involved in what is going on with your body and a medical professional as well as yourself would know much better. Also, why I dont touch PCOS threads with a 10 ft pole. Most weight loss is trial and error anyways. It takes time for people to find the right cocktail. Giving people another solution than eating 1200 calories and basically stopping themselves from starving their bodies (Even though they may not be hungry)

I am really glad you found what works for you. And I'm sure you can be of great inspiration to a lot of people. Hopefully the right ones.

scruffykaz

There will be the "you are lying" crowd, the "you can't count" crowd, and the very soapboxy "snowflake" crowd.

What's a "snowflake" crowd?

hisgirl86

I'm also going to point out that saying "1200 calories is ok for me! It's ok for you too!" seems a bit irresponsable given that you are medically recommended to do so. I'm expecting swarms of "I do 1200 calories and I love it so everyone telling me to eat more should shut up" comments.

But yes. You are correct. Supportive community, blah blah. Play nice, blah blah.

I think you completely missed the point of her post. She IS NOT saying that "its ok for me, its ok for you too". She is saying that "its ok for me, so stop attacking me". She clearly points out that she's NOT advocating a specified caloric amount for any other person, because every one is different.

dalgal26

Well said! And thank you for saying it! :flowerforyou:

I have been eating 1200 calories a day for over a year, now. No, I am not hungry, and no, I am not depriving myself. I just work it in, or work it off.

These forums can get nasty and that is a shame. We are all supposed to be uplifting each other and not tearing each other down.

Wishing you continued success in your journey to a healthier life.:flowerforyou:

Qskim

Bravo Natalie! 1200 FORCED me to focus on nutrition. 1200 made me change behavioral and psychological perspective with food. Do I advocate it for everyone? No. Neither do other 1200 people. I'm glad IPOARM and em2wl is on here..they make sense but 1200 is also doable for morbidly obese and obese if they so choose and are comfortable and they know that number has to change eventually. And because of em2wl I am safely increasing cals toward maintenance. They helped me understand that. Both sides end up meeting in the middle if both are done right and depending on your endgame. it's not all em2wl people...some are logical and supportive with it.

Discussions that could be very helpful to some get lost/wasted on here because a small minority have decided that it's not peer reviewed or simply just cals in cals out (not arguing that). What they fail to understand that it's not just calorie intake that needs to be addressed. Eg...when u eat. Some people benefit from just 3 meals per day...dorm new habits, practicality etc..bit it seems that the discussion is not allowed to be had unless it's peer reviewed. Well when the question is asked...people want feedback on what others do...peer reviewed in a way. They don't want an argument just a variety of experiences that may help them. As far as cals in cals out go...no we are not special bloody snowflakes...but as to how we address behavior and perspective..we ARE special snowflakes.

Thanks Nat.

thedescentofhope

Hmm

MoreBean13

Interesting.

I don't really agree that telling someone that they're doing themselves a disservice and risking hurting themselves by eating too little is bashing them, I think it's doing them a favor. I do agree, however, that if you're on a doctor supervised program that people shouldn't pretend to know more than a person with a medical degree who is taking in to account the whole of your medical history.

Phany04

Great post. I also have various metabolic problems( pcos and under active thyroid) I gained a lot of weight in the last 10 years. I still have to see my doctor to talk about the best calorie intake for me. Right now I'm at 1400.

nixirain

I know it was a long post, but I do hope you can go through it again with more time. I said, on at least three separate occasions, that there are certainly a great deal of people at 1200 calories who should not be. However, I just don't think that's up to us to decide and certainly not through shaming. I never said 1200 calories is okay for me and okay for you. You are directly misquoting. I said anyone with such caloric restriction should try to seek medical consult because it is risky. I explicitly said nothing I do is in anyway an indication of what anyone else should do.

That's the problem. That's why you hear the special snowflake line again and again. People always think they're the exception, when really they aren't. I agreed that shaming was bad, did I not? I'm not saying that we should shame people. I'm saying that we should educate people. When you eat below your BMR you have a metabolic slowdown. That's not my opinion, that's SCIENCE. Now, your BMR may be different than other people's or you may not care about losing lean body mass because it's more important to lose fat quicker because you are obese. But once again, that's not the majority of people I see on here who are on 1200 cal diets.

And my bad about the bod pod. I don't really know because I haven't had one. I usually just use my measurements, although I did read before that it was $75 a pop. Also, I do know that you can have a cursory meeting with a nutritionist for cheap. I work in community health. But you cannot have the bloodwork necessary to show a need for a VLCD in one of those cursory exams. All they can use is your current diet, your weight, and your medical history. So the advice doesn't really get to be that individualized outside of how a specific person can add in healthier habits.

Really, the special snowflake thing is just disdainful. It's really sad that that's part of your contribution. It's also just inaccurate. As I quoted in my original post--there are VAST differences in metabolisms; just because you plug something into a calculator does not make it accurate. If I see someone eating 1200 calories who hasn't gotten medical consult, then I always recommend IPOARM as a fantastic starting point. Enough already with the negative flippant comments.

Love,
A Special Snowflake--Just Like You

I agree with the bashing. People seem to forget about manors here. It's the idea that you don't have to deal with people IRL so who cares how mean I say it, Right? Thick skin is needed, because I don't think this will change any time soon.

EM2WL and IPOARM has helped alot of people. I am one of them so I guess I am a little biased. I 100% believe that if you have a special situation that you should see a doctor and get a recommendation to see a nutritionist. You also have to understand that in most situations that insurance will not pay for a nutritionist unless medically necessary. That in most cases means you have a disease or you are obese. Since I have neither, I am out of luck.

You must understand the frustration of the GENERAL people that have seen the light and learned how to fuel their GENERAL bodies and see GENERAL people eating well under the GENERAL recommendations (TDEE-deficit).

I put GENERAL in caps because I think that is something that gets lost here. I don't think anybody means anything mean when they say special snowflake, I think that is a way of saying you are not included in what they are saying about calorie goals. You have a unique situation, therefore you will not benefit from their advice.

So when things are posted in the General Forums, please know that these things are not directed toward you. Now, if someone says "People are dumb who have PCOS and are Obese should not listen to doctors and follow the Road Map" I will be the first one there to virtually sock them. :-)

I will end this with saying emotion gets lots in the interwebs. Please don't take it personally.

On a side note: When people get on my nerves in the Public Forums I just go to one of my groups! There is usually more love there!

1yoyoKAT

Thank you for writing this. Especially for those of us who have various medical conditions/needs. 1200 is not some sort of magic number below which all hell breaks loose for everyone.

Wishing you every success Natalie!

da1128

Beautifully written post. Some people need to put their mind in gear before they put their mouth in motion...or fingers to the keyboard.

There are people on 1200 or less calorie diets due to medical advice and there are people who can munch all day long and still stay within that caloric intake, depending on what they put into their mouths. If given a choice between a slice of apple pie or a tart, crisp apple, many will choose the apple. A side order of french fries or a side order of fresh green beans? I, for one, will choose the the green beans. Why? Because that is what I like and what I prefer and there are plenty of people just like me.

So yep, I am one of those 1200 or less calorie per day people, but I'm eating what I like and I'm not starving myself. I'm also healthier than I was twenty years ago and I run on the treadmill daily. On an incline of 10. For 60 minutes. I have maintained my current weight of 124 for several years.

Of course, my regime is not for everyone. We are all different, and isn't that wonderful? The world would surely be a boring place if we were all the same.

victoriannsays

I would never "bash" anyone for being on a doctor ordered low calorie diet. That being said, there are others on here who are eating below 1200 calories who are NOT following doctors orders. They just simply need a push in the right direction.

Its the " please help me im eating 1200 calories a day and im not losing any weight " posters that get the comments you are talking about. If they post asking for advice - what should they expect?

mistesh

I do appreciate the 1200 calorie cutoff noted here or the 1300 one suggested by my doctor, which opened up the realization that sometimes I would mindlessly snack on three tortillas or four slices of cheese, not to mention the occasional cheese burger with fries and soda or the jumbo hotdog, although not the more noticeable candy all that much. I still do all of these things, but far more seldom. But with this general awareness and if real food is all you eat, I'd say you don't need a cutoff. If you eat oranges, you may stop at the fifth, but if you squeeze the juice from ten, you can drink it in one gulp and ask, what's next. Not that I consider such juice processed, but staying within a healthy minimum and maximum without a ruler is so much easier once you know these things.

OP, have you considered Joel Fuhrman's readings?

How to live, for life, Success Stories
http://www.drfuhrman.com/success/SuccessStory.aspx?id=559

The End of Diabetes: The Eat to Live Plan to Prevent and Reverse Diabetes
http://www.amazon.com/The-End-Diabetes-Prevent-Reverse/dp/0062219979/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1359413670&sr=1-2

sarahmonsta

I loved your post!

sarahz5

I applaud the sentiment that we can always strive to be a bit more considerate and thoughtful in our discussions.

But I also want to say that I started MFP six months ago believing that I could only eat 1200, gross, because I have PCOS. I lost weight. What I have learned by listening to the voices that may sound a bit abrasive at times, but really are only frustrated, is that I was pretty much destined to gain it back when I "hit goal" and tried to eat a little more normally on a much slowed metabolism. Maybe 1200 is sustainable for some people; it isn't for me.

So I decided to throw caution to the wind, follow the advice of well-informed MFP vets, including some who also have PCOS, and start eating 1800 calories a day, gross, with some wiggle room. I have continued losing weight, and not much more slowly than before. But this weight loss is sustainable, because I am eating close to maintenance. I also eat the same amount of carbs as is recommended for the general population, and I don't shy away from those with a high glycemic index.

Yes, women with PCOS may tend to have a slower metabolism and be more sensitive to starchy carbs. But you know what is guaranteed to slow that metabolism *even further*? Not eating enough food. And not having enough food to fuel your workouts - there can be no argument that exercise has been proven FANTASTIC for women with PCOS.

I'm certainly not trying to quibble with the diet that OP is eating under her doctor's guidance; but considering the traffic this is getting, I want PCOSers to know that it may not be the only route to success for you. Take the time to eat at maintenance, find the maintenance sweet spot for yourself, and then give yourself a healthy deficit from there.

zilea

-

zilea

Kudos to you! I also find the evidence supporting the health benefits of a low calorie diet compelling enough to keep up with: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120830085114.htm

Facepalm. Darling, that is really not the same thing. And VLCDs for longevity are usually under 1200 (around 800 I think) and not about weight loss. At all.

And really, would you want your life to be longer if you were constantly starved and never allowed to eat chocolate again? I think not.

I was simply expressing a curiosity toward the benefits of lower calories, as evidenced by science, not in direct regard to weight loss but in regard to health, which I assume many of us here are also interested in.

Rusureyet

I am on a 1200 calorie plan based on what this site told me. I am not trying to starve myself and I eat a lot of low calorie veggies and a lot of fruit. I have lost one pound in three weeks. So I don't understand why people would bash anyone for being on a 1200 calorie plan. I didn't put in how many calories I wanted to use the site provided it to me based on my input. I guess I am confused as to why this is a problem with people. I haven't encounter any negative input from people.

nataliescalories

I would never "bash" anyone for being on a doctor ordered low calorie diet. That being said, there are others on here who are eating below 1200 calories who are NOT following doctors orders. They just simply need a push in the right direction.

Its the " please help me im eating 1200 calories a day and im not losing any weight " posters that get the comments you are talking about. If they post asking for advice - what should they expect?

It's not that the advice is bad; it's that the tone is often unnecessarily negative. I've said several times that I fully endorse sending these people to IPOARM--it's a fantastic resource. There is a supportive way of doing that and a dismissive and condescending way of doing that. As I mentioned to another commenter too--sometimes people also need to stick it out for a bit. I began 5k training and gained 4lbs. It wasn't 4lbs of fat, but if someone didn't know better they might think "OMG 1200 isn't working; I'm gaining weight." Those people may need to be told to give any diet--1200, 2400, etc more than one or two weeks. That's where opening up the conversation and opening up multiple options can really pay off.

bevie19

I am not a regular participant in message boards and your post points up the very reasons why.

My facts: I've been on a roughly 1200 calorie plan since last April (with a few ups and downs) and have lost 61 pounds. For me, that was perfect and it worked. I didn't care what anyone else said. Those people were not me. I was not starving. And even more importantly, just because I was fat didn't mean I was stupid, and really, unless I asked for an opinion, I didn't want it. Apparently, I didn't need anyone's opinion --except for my doctor-- because I accomplished what I wanted: to get to a healthy weight and STAY there.

My opinion (ha ha!) -- If you want to participate more on the boards, do so and get what you need to continue YOUR path. Simply ignore those who are not giving you what you need. My two cents.

6Petite

I am not a regular participant in message boards and your post points up the very reasons why.

My facts: I've been on a roughly 1200 calorie plan since last April (with a few ups and downs) and have lost 61 pounds. For me, that was perfect and it worked. I didn't care what anyone else said. Those people were not me. I was not starving. And even more importantly, just because I was fat didn't mean I was stupid, and really, unless I asked for an opinion, I didn't want it. Apparently, I didn't need anyone's opinion --except for my doctor-- because I accomplished what I wanted: to get to a healthy weight and STAY there.

My opinion (ha ha!) -- If you want to participate more on the boards, do so and get what you need to continue YOUR path. Simply ignore those who are not giving you what you need. My two cents.