Eating at TDEE-20% question

JAT74

The problem is that every week is different for me. For example last week the average per day I burned off was 400 and the week before it was 500 but I know that this week it will be a lot less as I've had a bad week and not been as lively so the average will be more like 300.

The TDEE calculators tell me that with my activity level set to working out 5-6 times a week I should eat around 2100 calories but my sedentary level of TDEE is anything from 1700 -1900 on different calculators so in fact if I add on my average for a week when I burned off 500 calories that would be 2200-2400 calories which is a lot of calories to eat and I think it's way too much for my slow metabolism and my body to handle. If it's a week when my average is only 300 then it would be 2000-2200. Therefore as it varies so much I suppose I could use 2000 as a maximum figure but I think this is too much food for me and I'll start to gain if I eat at that level every day.

With my MFP net calories currently set to 1350 and today for example I've burned off 400 calories through exercise I know that I can eat 1750 calories in total and no more. I am not sure if that's too little for me but I find it easier (and quite rewarding) to know that the more I work out the more I can eat so on days when I burn off 600 for example I can eat 1950.

The problem is I just need to find the correct net figure that works for me to be able to lose weight. For example I know I can eat 1350 calories if I don't exercise without being hungry but I don't know if that's right in terms of keeping my body fuelled properly as I don't know if 1300 or even less 1250 is my BMR (as some calculators have told me) or if it's actually higher ie. 1450 which I've been given as a figure by others.

I don't want to eat below my BMR but on the other hand if I'm not losing weight doing it the 'right' way what other option is there? I don't want to drop my net calories further because I know it's not good but something has to happen soon. When my net figure was set to 1500 which it was until recently for a few weeks I ate back my exercise calories and therefore ate between 1900 and 2100 most days but I didn't lose anything at all in weight, inches or anything else.

CaffeinatedConfectionist

What kind of Polar HRM do you have? The calorie burns estimated by HRMs aren't necessarily that accurate, but some models can be more accurate than others. If you have a lower range model, it may not have this feature, but I have an FT60 that allows me to input my V02 max and to estimate this with the fitness test function. Inputting this data will allow your HRM to provide a more accurate calorie burn estimate. If your HRM lets you do so, and you haven't yet, I'd suggest that.

I also base my calorie intake on a sedentary TDEE minus 15%, and eat back my exercise calories. This works out to basically the same number as a moderately/highly active TDEE minus 15%, but I've found that I am more motivated to work out if I do it this way.

ETA that according to the following article, HRMs that do not let you enter your V02 max and max heart rate can overestimate your calorie burn by as much as 33%, but entering this data can get that down to around 12%. On average, Polar HRMs are around 75% accurate: http://www.livestrong.com/article/490909-the-accuracy-of-calories-burned-in-polar-heart-rate-monitors/

ladyraven68

The problem is that every week is different for me. For example last week the average per day I burned off was 400 and the week before it was 500 but I know that this week it will be a lot less as I've had a bad week and not been as lively so the average will be more like 300.

The TDEE calculators tell me that with my activity level set to working out 5-6 times a week I should eat around 2100 calories but my sedentary level of TDEE is anything from 1700 -1900 on different calculators so in fact if I add on my average for a week when I burned off 500 calories that would be 2200-2400 calories which is a lot of calories to eat and I think it's way too much for my slow metabolism and my body to handle. If it's a week when my average is only 300 then it would be 2000-2200. Therefore as it varies so much I suppose I could use 2000 as a maximum figure but I think this is too much food for me and I'll start to gain if I eat at that level every day.

Sorry to ask again, but I still can't tell what numbers you are using.

Your 2100 TDEE figure - is that before or after the 20% deficit?

Your 1700 sedentary TDEE figure, is that before or after the 20% defict?

What are the actual TDEE numbers given by the calculator you are using, without any defict taken off?

mmddwechanged

Bump to read later

pyrowill

I've only recently jumped on the TDEE bandwagon, but I'd suggest set a realistic TDEE activity level that includes your workouts, then dont count your exercise cals.

JAT74

But what difference will that actually make to my progress?

JAT74

Lady Raven

Sorry, just to clarify. My active TDEE figure is 2100 before the 20% deficit but some calculators put my TDEE as high as 2300. My Sedentary TDEE figure is 1700 before the 20% deficit but again I've seen readings of up to 1900 for sedentary TDEE.

So therefore if I subtract 20% from 2100 = 1680
or 20% from 2300 = 1840.

If I work on a sedentary TDEE and subtract 20% from 1700 = 1360 plus exercise cals
If I work on a sedentary TDEE of 1900 and subtract 20% = 1520 plus exercise cals

Either way, I just don't know which figure to go by. I was eating 1500 plus exercise calories and had NO weight loss in several weeks. I didn't always eat back all of my exercise calories but I ate most of them.

I am now eating 1350 plus exercise cals which I've just started so I'm not sure if this will work either yet as it's only been a couple of days.

What should I do?

ArroganceInStep

But what difference will that actually make to my progress?

A couple things. Some people (myself included) find hitting a constant number of calories per day a lot easier to manage than one that varies all over the place. It's a bit easier to plan out meals and get into a routine long term. In fact, I find that for me, getting adequate nutrition before my workout (even the day before) matters more than afterwards, so the idea of building up a calorie bank to eat more after doesn't really work (again this is for me).

Another thing is that it's fewer estimations. When you diet and eat back exercise calories, you're estimating calorie intake, estimating what your TDEE is, and then estimating how many calories you burn in your workout. This works for many people, but I like sticking with calculating my TDEE, eating under that, and then estimating calorie intake while leaving exercise burns out of the equation.

Lastly, you asked about calorie burns with an HRM. First and foremost HRMs are specifically calibrated for steady state cardio. Using them for other activities like weight lifting or yoga can greatly skew the accuracy of them. I like using HRMs as a safety indicator. I have a history of high blood pressure in my family, and though I'm healthy now I try to keep an eye on my heart rate when I'm doing any kind of vigorous activity. You can certainly still use your HRM to track calorie burns if you want to (again many people have great success with this), but if you're having trouble losing consider the possibility that the results you're getting from your Polar may be off.

ladyraven68

Lady Raven

Sorry, just to clarify. My active TDEE figure is 2100 before the 20% deficit but some calculators put my TDEE as high as 2300. My Sedentary TDEE figure is 1700 before the 20% deficit but again I've seen readings of up to 1900 for sedentary TDEE.

So therefore if I subtract 20% from 2100 = 1680
or 20% from 2300 = 1840.

If I work on a sedentary TDEE and subtract 20% from 1700 = 1360 plus exercise cals
If I work on a sedentary TDEE of 1900 and subtract 20% = 1520 plus exercise cals

Either way, I just don't know which figure to go by. I was eating 1500 plus exercise calories and had NO weight loss in several weeks. I didn't always eat back all of my exercise calories but I ate most of them.

I am now eating 1350 plus exercise cals which I've just started so I'm not sure if this will work either yet as it's only been a couple of days.

What should I do?

OK, assuming you have put in the right information, your 2100 TDEE calories are your maintenance calories. If you have been eating 1500 plus exercise calories you could have been eating up to, and over your maintenance calories.

So if you need 2100 every day to maintain your current weight, that's 14700 calories over a week.
To lose 1lb per week, theoretically you need a weekly deficit of 3500 calories, so that is a weekly total of 11,200.

How does that compare to what you have actually been eating as a total over the week?

Personally, with those numbers, I would eat a flat 1600 every day (TDEE less 500 for 1lb per week)

JAT74

Ok, let's say that I start eating for example 1680 which is an active TDEE -20%. It's quite a bit higher than my BMR which is 1300 ish but hopefully if I work out most days it will create a large enough deficit to encourage weight loss.

I have two problems with this

1) What about days when I don't work out and I have an expected day off. Should I eat less than this figure on those days?
2) What if I burn off a lot more one day (for example instead of 400-500 calories I burn off 700-1000) calories. Can I allow myself a bit more to eat on those days?

For me, I normally find that weekends are higher in calories as I go out with friends quite often and eat more carbs than I do during the week, as well as having some alcohol. I therefore like to be able to eat more if I train more as on these days in particular I need the extra calories available.

During the week I can manage on less calories normally so this isn't so important but if and when I do have an unexpected higher calorie day I like to be able to add an extra workout in order to compensate for the extra food eaten.

I know heart rate monitors are not going to be 100% accurate and also I have to account for what I would have burned off anyway had I not been exercising during the same time period so maybe 50 calories or so off the final figure but even if I only eat back some of my workout calories and not all of them that should be enough for me to lose weight?

JAT74

It's all very confusing! Most days I suppose I've been eating 1900 or 2000 so that's just a little below my TDEE if 2100 is correct but then again 2300 could also be correct for me, I just don't know. When I haven't done any training I've been eating 1500 though.

Either way, now my MFP net is set to 1350 if I add back exercise calories then the highest I'll be eating is around 500 more so that would be 1850 in total, still less than I have been but maybe not enough to lose 1lb per week as you've said.

Maybe in that case I might try and keep my net cals as they are and make sure I don't eat above 1700 on workout days and keep to my net of 1350 on non-workout days. That way I should be able to create a 3500 calorie deficit easily during the week.

ArroganceInStep

It's all very confusing! Most days I suppose I've been eating 1900 or 2000 so that's just a little below my TDEE if 2100 is correct but then again 2300 could also be correct for me, I just don't know. When I haven't done any training I've been eating 1500 though.

Either way, now my MFP net is set to 1350 if I add back exercise calories then the highest I'll be eating is around 500 more so that would be 1850 in total, still less than I have been but maybe not enough to lose 1lb per week as you've said.

Maybe in that case I might try and keep my net cals as they are and make sure I don't eat above 1700 on workout days and keep to my net of 1350 on non-workout days. That way I should be able to create a 3500 calorie deficit easily during the week.

How far back do you have accurate diet and exercise data? Is it complete? One possibility would be for you to estimate your TDEE from that information. Lets say you have 6 months of contiguous and complete data (if you do I'm jealous).

Go back and find your average calorie intake per day for that time period. Then from that figure subtract:
(Change in body weight in lbs * 3500 calories per pound) / (180 days)

It's a very rough approximation, made worse if you don't have accurate information, but it's one way to look at it.

To answer your weekend calorie question, lets say you did the above and came up with a TDEE of 2200 (that's including exercise calories so you wouldn't eat them back) and want to lose a pound a week (so 1700 calories per day). You could very easily eat 1500 calories per day from Sunday through Thursday, and then have 2100 calories on both Friday and Saturday.

Remember that the equations you plug your numbers into are just averages designed to be 'close' for as many people as possible. It's up to you to tweak those numbers with trial and error and hopefully find a point where you're getting the results you're after.

JAT74

No, unfortunately I only started logging calories over the last 7 weeks I've been on MFP. Before that I gradually put on weight over a couple of years from 124 lbs to 147 at my heaviest a few weeks ago.

I really don't know how many calories I was eating before but I'd say that normally I probably ate around 1200 as I was conscious about portion sizes and carbs but I was also not eating a lot of protein so the calories were probably quite low and I wasn't really exercising more than 2-3 days per week. The thing which made me gain weight I'd say was probably the fact that at weekends my calorie intake almost doubled and I had alcohol too and didn't exercise to conpensate for that. I also had the odd sneaky chocolate bar or pastry which probably didn't help.

I think your suggestion of 1500 per day during the week and 2100 at weekends is a good one. That way I know that I have to be more careful during the week and won't have to worry so much as weekends regardless of exercise.

How would I log that on MFP though, set my cals to 1500 and then igore the amount to eat back when I exercise exept for at weekends?

deksgrl

Again, you are making this too complicated.

Eat one calorie goal every day regardless of how much you worked out. Say, 1700. Don't eat back exercise calories. It will average out over the week. If you eat a little bit more or a little bit less +/- 100 cals, don't worry about it. Do that for 4 weeks.

You are clearly not sedentary. But don't worry about your exact TDEE, because you are not going to know exactly. You need to experiment a little bit with your numbers to figure out where the sweet spot is. Unfortunately, it does take weeks to see if the changes you make are working or not.

lenniebus

I think you are overthinking it. Figure out your TDEE including all exercise and all activities. Remember it is an estimate though. Eat 20% less. Do not keep track of exercise calories, you don't need to, it should all be included in TDEE already. After 4-6 weeks evaluate, did you lose, gain or stay the same? Adjust if necessary.

I think this is spot on! It's so different for everyone I know--so you really need to figure out what works best for you. Set your calories at what you think works best for you (I really like the TDEE -20%), and then give it some time. It's time well spent I think--plus there is no fear by upping your calories with healthy food by 200-300 that you will gain weight with the same activity level.

doubleduofa

I realize that you want quick results and it is frustrating waiting to find the right number of calories - trust me, I know - but, I think you need to give it more time. .5 lbs/week (average) is actually great for the amount you have to lose. Also, weight loss is not linear. While some people lose 1-2 lbs/week like clock work, there are those of us that lose 2 lbs, then hold steady or gain .5 lbs over the next 2 weeks, then lose 2 lbs again. Being on the pill, not being on the pill, starting your period, ovulating - it can all cause you to not lose for a week or two. (I always have a big drop after TOM is over). Anyway, be patient and trust in the process. You are not gaining, and that's a good thing.

Honestly, I think you ate too little for too long and really slowed your metabolism. You are bringing it back slowly by eating more and I think that is fantastic. However, it requires patience.

JAT74

I will give it time, I have to! I think that 1500 during the week and up to 2100 at weekends (assuming I'm working out 6 days per week) are good compromises for me. I know it's not keeping it so simple but over the week hopefully the deficit will be enough for me to lose 1lb per week and that's the most important thing. Plus when I'm out with friends I won't feel so guilty if I do eat a little more and have couple of drinks because I'll know I have the calories available to do that. If that doesn't work after 3-4 weeks I'll re-think things and maybe I should be eating less by -100 calories but I'll keep a check on things.

SJ46

I think you are overthinking it. Figure out your TDEE including all exercise and all activities. Remember it is an estimate though. Eat 20% less. Do not keep track of exercise calories, you don't need to, it should all be included in TDEE already. After 4-6 weeks evaluate, did you lose, gain or stay the same? Adjust if necessary.

This, exactly. It really isn't that complicated.

doubleduofa

I will give it time, I have to! I think that 1500 during the week and up to 2100 at weekends (assuming I'm working out 6 days per week) are good compromises for me. I know it's not keeping it so simple but over the week hopefully the deficit will be enough for me to lose 1lb per week and that's the most important thing. Plus when I'm out with friends I won't feel so guilty if I do eat a little more and have couple of drinks because I'll know I have the calories available to do that. If that doesn't work after 3-4 weeks I'll re-think things and maybe I should be eating less by -100 calories but I'll keep a check on things.

I think you are doing well. Your plan seems pretty simple. Are you talking NET cals or total cals? I have a hard time eating my exercise cals back because I'm not sure they are calculated correctly. I usually eat about half of what MFP estimates back depending on hunger (which usually comes the next day). I'm trying to listen to my body though too, so if I'm super hungry, I might eat more, and if not, I might not eat any back.

I think you are doing it right.

thinagain2014

I am about 5 weeks into my weight loss journey. I'm 5'4" 275lbs and still have 109 to go and I'm 42yo.

I don't have a lot in common with you right now but wanted to share my view on TDEE-20%. This is my second week using this method. I do spinning 4-5x a week were I burn anywhere from 500-800 calories per class (using HRM). I have lost 4lbs in two weeks!

As I said before, I know I have a lot more to lose than you do but I just want to let you know to trust the process. I lost 4lbs my first week, gained the second week, maintained the third but then lost 2lbs each in weeks 4 and 5.

It is scary for me to eat that many calories because I've always heard to lose weight you have to eat less, but I feel 100% better and I am not deprived, and I'm losing weight!

Good luck