Arguing on the webernet

dirtnap63

Pros: You can ignore any post, and you don't have to share the cheese dip

Cons: You get strikes for openly mocking stupid people

I diagree


Pros: I can't openly strike stupid people

Cons: I don't get any of your cheese dip.

Gallowmere1984

And seriously if I see someone telling someone else to go kill themselves or some bull**** like that I'm getting in there. That ****s DANGEROUS and has contributed to the deaths of too many kids over the years.

I can see your point here, but only to a degree.

My only real qualms with this:
-This site is intended to be used only by people over the age of 18. Just because some teenies slip under the radar doesn't mean that we aren't allowed to assume that everyone here is over 18, unless they state otherwise.
-Adults are responsible for all of their own actions, only allowing exceptions for extreme mental illness, and even in most of those cases, see my point below.
-If a grown man/woman eats a bullet because of something someone said to them on a fitness website, one has to wonder how long they'd have made it anyway.

LauraMacNCheese

Pros: You can ignore any post, and you don't have to share the cheese dip

Cons: You get strikes for openly mocking stupid people

Duh...because telling people something they don't want to hear is bullying

sissiluv

And seriously if I see someone telling someone else to go kill themselves or some bull**** like that I'm getting in there. That ****s DANGEROUS and has contributed to the deaths of too many kids over the years.

I can see your point here, but only to a degree.

My only real qualms with this:
-This site is intended to be used only by people over the age of 18. Just because some teenies slip under the radar doesn't mean that we aren't allowed to assume that everyone here is over 18, unless they state otherwise.
-Adults are responsible for all of their own actions, only allowing exceptions for extreme mental illness, and even in most of those cases, see my point below.
-If a grown man/woman eats a bullet because of something someone said to them on a fitness website, one has to wonder how long they'd have made it anyway.

I'm not just talking about MFP, unfortunately. If half the websites I patroned were as supportive as this one, maybe my concern would be less but I hear crap like that too often, directed to both other people and myself, to let it slide.
And most of the time it IS kids too, teenagers 13+ if not younger if they're ignoring TOS, who don't know yet how much words can hurt. Especially if you're already depressed and are desperately clawing at reasons why you SHOULDN'T kill yourself, hearing someone tell you that you should? And giving you instructions? I can see where that could be deadly.

cmriverside

If I was on a forum where it got so bad that kids were telling other kids how to kill themselves, I'd delete my *kitten* from that forum site.

cparter

Starting a thread provoking fighting about how you don't like fighting on the internet. Oxymoron what?

^^This

sissiluv

If I was on a forum where it got so bad that kids were telling other kids how to kill themselves, I'd delete my *kitten* from that forum site.

Then I hope you've deleted your youtube account, and your tumblr if you have one.
I've heard about a lot of the crap being traded over facebook too, so if you have one of those you way wanna delete that account as well.

Gallowmere1984

I'm not just talking about MFP, unfortunately. If half the websites I patroned were as supportive as this one, maybe my concern would be less but I hear crap like that too often, directed to both other people and myself, to let it slide.
And most of the time it IS kids too, teenagers 13+ if not younger if they're ignoring TOS, who don't know yet how much words can hurt. Especially if you're already depressed and are desperately clawing at reasons why you SHOULDN'T kill yourself, hearing someone tell you that you should? And giving you instructions? I can see where that could be deadly.

As I said, I can see your point, to some degree. That being said, I have been on the other side of the fence myself. I wasn't depressed or anything so...I almost hesitate to use the word (but **** it), pathetic. It was actually a philosophical debate with myself where old school nihilism was starting to win the argument, and in some ways, it still does. I look at it this way: people should be having to look for reasons to not kill themselves, not the other way around. What I mean is, with life being objectively meaningless, those who don't have any real reason to be around should have at it. I'm not talking about some subjective 'perfect world order' crap either. I simply mean the people who can't even seem to justify continued breathing to themselves.

TL;DR- why should I (or anyone else) feel obligated to try to convince someone that their life is worth continuing, given that they don't, and they are the ones stuck with it?

sissiluv

I'm not just talking about MFP, unfortunately. If half the websites I patroned were as supportive as this one, maybe my concern would be less but I hear crap like that too often, directed to both other people and myself, to let it slide.
And most of the time it IS kids too, teenagers 13+ if not younger if they're ignoring TOS, who don't know yet how much words can hurt. Especially if you're already depressed and are desperately clawing at reasons why you SHOULDN'T kill yourself, hearing someone tell you that you should? And giving you instructions? I can see where that could be deadly.

As I said, I can see your point, to some degree. That being said, I have been on the other side of the fence myself. I wasn't depressed or anything so...I almost hesitate to use the word (but **** it), pathetic. It was actually a philosophical debate with myself where old school nihilism was starting to win the argument, and in some ways, it still does. I look at it this way: people should be having to look for reasons to not kill themselves, not the other way around. What I mean is, with life being objectively meaningless, those who don't have any real reason to be around should have at it. I'm not talking about some subjective 'perfect world order' crap either. I simply mean the people who can't even seem to justify continued breathing to themselves.

TL;DR- why should I (or anyone else) feel obligated to try to convince someone that their life is worth continuing, given that they don't, and they are the ones stuck with it?

Well if that's the case then maybe you should tell me to kill myself. Considering I made an attempt a couple of days ago and stopped myself for some reason I don't even know, I may even follow up on the suggestion.

My point is what if they DO take a suggestion, made in cruel jest, to take their own lives and they do? Where's everyone else stuck then? Getting international attention probably, law enforcement coming down on their heads, and the person, or persons, who did it are stuck with the metaphorical blood on their hands.
Because they may not have pulled the trigger themselves but they sure as hell gave said trigger to them.

BigDog

Every time I see a post somewhere like this one it reminds me of these Flame Warrior characters: http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/index.htm

I like to think of myself as one of the mightier ones on there, but if I'm being honest I'm probably more like this one: http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/enfantprovocateur.htm

Timshel_

Not ebing condesending to kids with disabilities, but...

Gallowmere1984

Well if that's the case then maybe you should tell me to kill myself. Considering I made an attempt a couple of days ago and stopped myself for some reason I don't even know, I may even follow up on the suggestion.

My point is what if they DO take a suggestion, made in cruel jest, to take their own lives and they do? Where's everyone else stuck then? Getting international attention probably, law enforcement coming down on their heads, and the person, or persons, who did it are stuck with the metaphorical blood on their hands.
Because they may not have pulled the trigger themselves but they sure as hell gave said trigger to them.

If you are unfamiliar with this article, give it a read.

http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=suicide_blame

I do realize that you appear to be talking about children for the most part, and I definitely agree, that is something different entirely.

cmriverside

If I was on a forum where it got so bad that kids were telling other kids how to kill themselves, I'd delete my *kitten* from that forum site.

Then I hope you've deleted your youtube account, and your tumblr if you have one.
I've heard about a lot of the crap being traded over facebook too, so if you have one of those you way wanna delete that account as well.

I've not seen that type of stuff on my feed on facebook, don't have one on tumblr or youtube....why do you read that crap? Youtube is for watching videos...what the hell are you watching?

If I read anything like that on facebook, I could block them.

.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

sissiluv

Well if that's the case then maybe you should tell me to kill myself. Considering I made an attempt a couple of days ago and stopped myself for some reason I don't even know, I may even follow up on the suggestion.

My point is what if they DO take a suggestion, made in cruel jest, to take their own lives and they do? Where's everyone else stuck then? Getting international attention probably, law enforcement coming down on their heads, and the person, or persons, who did it are stuck with the metaphorical blood on their hands.
Because they may not have pulled the trigger themselves but they sure as hell gave said trigger to them.

If you are unfamiliar with this article, give it a read.

http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=suicide_blame

I do realize that you appear to be talking about children for the most part, and I definitely agree, that is something different entirely.

Yeah sure. Such as the middle-schoolers further down the page here (https://puresight.com/Cyberbullying/cyber-bullying-statistics.html) and the surveyed kids who never would have thought that what they said could have had that form of impact and would come back to haunt them. While I understand these aren't talking about kids telling other kids to go kill themselves, that's a form of bullying and is probably included in these stats (http://www.bullyingstatistics.org/content/bullying-and-suicide.html).
Am I saying that's the only factor? Nope. But can it be a big one when you're told this? Yes.

And if you've somehow come under the impression that suicidal ideation stops when a kid hits 20+, well. I wish.

But I think I have to extract myself from this conversation, as frankly it's hitting a little too close to home for me at current.

cmriverside

THIS ENTIRE POST WAS A JOKE. COOL YOUR JETS PEOPLE.

Apparently it somehow led to suicidal children on teh interwebz.

Arguing takes many forms...including changing the subject.

sissiluv

If I was on a forum where it got so bad that kids were telling other kids how to kill themselves, I'd delete my *kitten* from that forum site.

Then I hope you've deleted your youtube account, and your tumblr if you have one.
I've heard about a lot of the crap being traded over facebook too, so if you have one of those you way wanna delete that account as well.

I've not seen that type of stuff on my feed on facebook, don't have one on tumblr or youtube....why do you read that crap? Youtube is for watching videos...what the hell are you watching?

If I read anything like that on facebook, I could block them.

.

Music videos actually. Apparently some people take their musical tastes very seriously.

Also I suppose I should say that I use tumblr as an art nsperation and art portfolio space, and I use facebook to keep up to date on family and friends. No idea how I come across this but it happens.

cmriverside

If I was on a forum where it got so bad that kids were telling other kids how to kill themselves, I'd delete my *kitten* from that forum site.

Then I hope you've deleted your youtube account, and your tumblr if you have one.
I've heard about a lot of the crap being traded over facebook too, so if you have one of those you way wanna delete that account as well.

I've not seen that type of stuff on my feed on facebook, don't have one on tumblr or youtube....why do you read that crap? Youtube is for watching videos...what the hell are you watching?

If I read anything like that on facebook, I could block them.

.

Music videos actually. Apparently some people take their musical tastes very seriously.

Also I suppose I should say that I use tumblr as an art nsperation and art portfolio space, and I use facebook to keep up to date on family and friends. No idea how I come across this but it happens.

Well, I'm pretty careful about what I let into my life. Make some better choices in music. Don't go looking for mental health discussions on the internet.

I don't think it is ever any one's fault when there is a suicide. It's a one-person crime.

Gallowmere1984

And if you've somehow come under the impression that suicidal ideation stops when a kid hits 20+, well. I wish.

But I think I have to extract myself from this conversation, as frankly it's hitting a little too close to home for me at current.

Of course they don't just stop at some arbitrary age. As I admitted, I still battle with this frequently on philosophic grounds, and I am almost 30. Luckily for me, it's become far less frequent, as lifting has given me more purpose in life. It's one of those things that sounds so trivial to those who don't want to do it competitively, but it's given me a reason to give the finger to nihilism for now.

My apologies if anything I said made you uncomfortable. I just dislike the idea of people being held accountable for the actions of others. It would be the logical equivalent of prosecuting someone from Austrian art schools because they told Hitler he sucked at art..

sissiluv

And if you've somehow come under the impression that suicidal ideation stops when a kid hits 20+, well. I wish.

But I think I have to extract myself from this conversation, as frankly it's hitting a little too close to home for me at current.

Of course they don't just stop at some arbitrary age. As I admitted, I still battle with this frequently on philosophic grounds, and I am almost 30. Luckily for me, it's become far less frequent, as lifting has given me more purpose in life. It's one of those things that sounds so trivial to those who don't want to do it competitively, but it's given me a reason to give the finger to nihilism for now.

My apologies if anything I said made you uncomfortable. I just dislike the idea of people being held accountable for the actions of others. It would be the logical equivalent of prosecuting someone from Austrian art schools because they told Hitler he sucked at art..

Because speaking and typing obviously aren't actions, and as they aren't actions people shouldn't be held accountable for what they say. Verbal abuse is no longer a thing and verbal sexual harassment ceases to make people uncomfortable everywhere, because if they're uncomfortable or become depressed or ashamed from hearing those things, it's their own fault for being too sensitive. And it's definitely, DEFINITELY nobody's fault if they decide to act on it because sticks and stones may break bones but words definitely don't hurt.
Good to know. I'll keep it in mind next time I see someone tell someone else to kill themselves and won't bother arguing with the perpetrator about it because obviously it's just words and words never hurt or killed anybody.

k8blujay2

THIS ENTIRE POST WAS A JOKE. COOL YOUR JETS PEOPLE.

whoa! yelling! and who are you to tell people to cool their jets...

Gallowmere1984

Because speaking and typing obviously aren't actions, and as they aren't actions people shouldn't be held accountable for what they say. Verbal abuse is no longer a thing and verbal sexual harassment ceases to make people uncomfortable everywhere, because if they're uncomfortable or become depressed or ashamed from hearing those things, it's their own fault for being too sensitive. And it's definitely, DEFINITELY nobody's fault if they decide to act on it because sticks and stones may break bones but words definitely don't hurt.
Good to know. I'll keep it in mind next time I see someone tell someone else to kill themselves and won't bother arguing with the perpetrator about it because obviously it's just words and words never hurt or killed anybody.

So, you're saying that the talent advisers administering examinations at Academy of Fine Art who told young Adolf that his talents were sub-par were in any way responsible for the Holocaust and Hitler's eventual suicide?

Hell, if you want to tighten it up on time a bit, how about this? Most people don't commit suicide based on a single event. There are 'straws that broke the camels' backs' so to speak, but it's always a long chain of events. So, what we would need to do, in the interest of justice, is trace back and prosecute every single person who ever said a mean thing to the person who eventually killed themselves, fired them from a job, broke up with them, etc.

If it sounds ridiculous, that's because it is.

sissiluv

Because speaking and typing obviously aren't actions, and as they aren't actions people shouldn't be held accountable for what they say. Verbal abuse is no longer a thing and verbal sexual harassment ceases to make people uncomfortable everywhere, because if they're uncomfortable or become depressed or ashamed from hearing those things, it's their own fault for being too sensitive. And it's definitely, DEFINITELY nobody's fault if they decide to act on it because sticks and stones may break bones but words definitely don't hurt.
Good to know. I'll keep it in mind next time I see someone tell someone else to kill themselves and won't bother arguing with the perpetrator about it because obviously it's just words and words never hurt or killed anybody.

So, you're saying that the talent advisers administering examinations at Academy of Fine Art who told young Adolf that his talents were sub-par were in any way responsible for the Holocaust and Hitler's eventual suicide?

Hell, if you want to tighten it up on time a bit, how about this? Most people don't commit suicide based on a single event. There are 'straws that broke the camels' backs' so to speak, but it's always a long chain of events. So, what we would need to do, in the interest of justice, is trace back and prosecute every single person who ever said a mean thing to the person who eventually killed themselves, fired them from a job, broke up with them, etc.

If it sounds ridiculous, that's because it is.

Yeah, straws. Funny you should use that idiom considering it goes, in my experience, as 'the final straw that broke the camels back', which telling a person to off themselves can very well be.

I'm very confused right now. Are you saying that I SHOULND'T enter into such a conversation and attempt to educate a person on how what they're saying could be harmful because they COULD be that 'final straw'? I understand I'm working on a possibility but isn't it always better to be safe than sorry?
If you're concerned about my comment regarding the law coming down on the people's heads who did so and such an even garnering international attention, I only say that because it already has. Unless you've already forgotten about Amanda Todd and the very interesting events that lead up to HER decision to take her life, and the fact that the RCMP ended up getting involved and it got on the news basically everywhere. And then poor Jamey Rodeymer, who I'll grant was American and therefore the RCMP had nothing to do with, who's suicide also lead to a criminal investigation due to the amount of cyberbullying he received.

Cus in the end what this sounds like is you're saying that verbal abuse and cyberbullying have zero affect on people and that people shouldn't be held accountable for what they say, or shouldn't be educated that what they say can have very real consequences.
If I've misunderstood you in some and you'd like to clear this up for me I'd very much appreciate it. Likewise if you feel you've misunderstood me somehow please tell me which part of what I've been saying has confused you and I'll do my best to rectify it.

I apologize that I got a little verbally rough. This is a personal matter for me but I am trying to separate myself from it, I only beg your patience.

cmriverside

Gallowmere1984

Yeah, straws. Funny you should use that idiom considering it goes, in my experience, as 'the final straw that broke the camels back', which telling a person to off themselves can very well be.

I'm very confused right now. Are you saying that I SHOULND'T enter into such a conversation and attempt to educate a person on how what they're saying could be harmful because they COULD be that 'final straw'? I understand I'm working on a possibility but isn't it always better to be safe than sorry?
If you're concerned about my comment regarding the law coming down on the people's heads who did so and such an even garnering international attention, I only say that because it already has. Unless you've already forgotten about Amanda Todd and the very interesting events that lead up to HER decision to take her life, and the fact that the RCMP ended up getting involved and it got on the news basically everywhere. And then poor Jamey Rodeymer, who I'll grant was American and therefore the RCMP had nothing to do with, who's suicide also lead to a criminal investigation due to the amount of cyberbullying he received.

Cus in the end what this sounds like is you're saying that verbal abuse and cyberbullying have zero affect on people and that people shouldn't be held accountable for what they say, or shouldn't be educated that what they say can have very real consequences.
If I've misunderstood you in some and you'd like to clear this up for me I'd very much appreciate it. Likewise if you feel you've misunderstood me somehow please tell me which part of what I've been saying has confused you and I'll do my best to rectify it.

I apologize that I got a little verbally rough. This is a personal matter for me but I am trying to separate myself from it, I only beg your patience.

Patience is something that I have an infinite amount of, so long as the topic isn't just rife with banality (as this one isn't for me).

Don't get me wrong, I see no rationality in advocating for the suicide of another, or explaining how. It's one of those things that doesn't exactly require a rocket scientist to figure out or even anything beyond first grade math (tall building+gravity+concrete=mission complete), and those who are going to kill themselves will likely do so without the intentional prodding of another person anyway.

On the same token, I see absolutely nothing wrong with you intervening in a conversation like what you have described, assuming you aren't filling a person's head with bull**** just to soothe your conscience. All of the 'everything will be okay, it gets better, it's not always this bad' is hollow, and an outright lie when it's said to some people. For example, if you are trying to convince a paraplegic who wishes to kill him/herself because of the non-function of their body that 'life will get better', you are lying to them and don't even realize it, because their reason for wanting to die is something than cannot be fixed. However, if it's just typical teenager hormone driven QQ that you are combating, I can definitely see your cause as noble.

My problem is people being held legally accountable for the death of another person when they did not actually kill them. There is even an exception for me in the last part; doctors who assist with suicide in terminally ill patients should never have ethical questions thrown at them, especially when some of those people are so advanced in the diseases that keeping them alive against their will could probably be viewed as torture by any rational person. I don't care if someone provided every ounce of the means, they didn't perform the action. Example: say I know someone is suicidal, I bought a vial of cyanide, put it on their table, and walked away. In no way did I actually kill them. I just provided the means for them to do it themselves.

The entire subject is loaded with all kinds of ethical problems to which the answers will be different in almost every single case. It becomes an especially touchy case when dealing with the elderly and mentally unstable children/teenagers, but in all reality, suicide is a victimless crime, akin to me stealing my own television.

sissiluv

Yeah, straws. Funny you should use that idiom considering it goes, in my experience, as 'the final straw that broke the camels back', which telling a person to off themselves can very well be.

I'm very confused right now. Are you saying that I SHOULND'T enter into such a conversation and attempt to educate a person on how what they're saying could be harmful because they COULD be that 'final straw'? I understand I'm working on a possibility but isn't it always better to be safe than sorry?
If you're concerned about my comment regarding the law coming down on the people's heads who did so and such an even garnering international attention, I only say that because it already has. Unless you've already forgotten about Amanda Todd and the very interesting events that lead up to HER decision to take her life, and the fact that the RCMP ended up getting involved and it got on the news basically everywhere. And then poor Jamey Rodeymer, who I'll grant was American and therefore the RCMP had nothing to do with, who's suicide also lead to a criminal investigation due to the amount of cyberbullying he received.

Cus in the end what this sounds like is you're saying that verbal abuse and cyberbullying have zero affect on people and that people shouldn't be held accountable for what they say, or shouldn't be educated that what they say can have very real consequences.
If I've misunderstood you in some and you'd like to clear this up for me I'd very much appreciate it. Likewise if you feel you've misunderstood me somehow please tell me which part of what I've been saying has confused you and I'll do my best to rectify it.

I apologize that I got a little verbally rough. This is a personal matter for me but I am trying to separate myself from it, I only beg your patience.

Patience is something that I have an infinite amount of, so long as the topic isn't just rife with banality (as this one isn't for me).

Don't get me wrong, I see no rationality in advocating for the suicide of another, or explaining how. It's one of those things that doesn't exactly require a rocket scientist to figure out or even anything beyond first grade math (tall building+gravity+concrete=mission complete), and those who are going to kill themselves will likely do so without the intentional prodding of another person anyway.

On the same token, I see absolutely nothing wrong with you intervening in a conversation like what you have described, assuming you aren't filling a person's head with bull**** just to soothe your conscience. All of the 'everything will be okay, it gets better, it's not always this bad' is hollow, and an outright lie when it's said to some people. For example, if you are trying to convince a paraplegic who wishes to kill him/herself because of the non-function of their body that 'life will get better', you are lying to them and don't even realize it, because their reason for wanting to die is something than cannot be fixed. However, if it's just typical teenager hormone driven QQ that you are combating, I can definitely see your cause as noble.

My problem is people being held legally accountable for the death of another person when they did not actually kill them. There is even an exception for me in the last part; doctors who assist with suicide in terminally ill patients should never have ethical questions thrown at them, especially when some of those people are so advanced in the diseases that keeping them alive against their will could probably be viewed as torture by any rational person. I don't care if someone provided every ounce of the means, they didn't perform the action. Example: say I know someone is suicidal, I bought a vial of cyanide, put it on their table, and walked away. In no way did I actually kill them. I just provided the means for them to do it themselves.

The entire subject is loaded with all kinds of ethical problems to which the answers will be different in almost every single case. It becomes an especially touchy case when dealing with the elderly and mentally unstable children/teenagers, but in all reality, suicide is a victimless crime, akin to me stealing my own television.

Doctor's aren't going to tell their patient "I wouldn't care if you died. No one would. So just do it It would make everyone WAY more happier!" though. But an ignorant youth? Will. And in situations such as the above yes I'm going to insert myself into the conversation if I see it and give them hell because it's BS, and try to teach them WHY it's BS, largely by putting some foresight into their heads that their words do and can have consequences.
Am I going to fill the victim with false notions of eternal happiness? I don't recall ever saying that I would or have. Am I going to try to tell them that they're wanted, at least by me, and to rethink their plans to take their lives? Yes but I'm not going to fill their heads with sunshine and daisies and tell them that from hereon out everything will be sunshine and daisies because it never is, ESPECIALLY in the cases of clinical depression where it's a matter of hormone imbalances and the like which can be soothed with medication, cognitive behavioural therapy and even electroshock therapy, which I believe has made a recent comeback onto the 'treatment scene'.
I'd also like to think a doctor isn't going to euthanize a patient when there's a chance at recovery, as can be the case here.

And if you have a problem with the law making people who verbally abuse other's accountable, take it up with the people who create and enforce it. I'm neither saying it should or shouldn't happen I'm just saying that it can, and that it can be one of the consequences to doing as such.

Likewise I'd hardly call suicide victimless when you take into the account the family and friends who've just lost their loved one, presuming they're so fortunate to have such resources to draw from. The death of a loved one is a mood killer and can spiral into situational depression on the best of days when it was completely natural, but the suddenness of suicide?

There are also ways and methods to taking ones own life which makes it easier. Your hypothetical largely depends on the lack of safe-guarding, the height of the building and lack of heroic passerby for instance, all of which can make suicide a more difficult matter. I understand that where there's a will there's a way, but usually someone who's intending on taking their own life doesn't ACTUALLY want to die, so much as end the pain they're experiencing. Something which is likely to cause more pain, or be more difficult to do, can dissuade someone so 'helpful' people may give out tips and tricks to make it easier to do.
Which I've also seen happen.

Gallowmere1984

Doctor's aren't going to tell their patient "I wouldn't care if you died. No one would. So just do it It would make everyone WAY more happier!" though. But an ignorant youth? Will. And in situations such as the above yes I'm going to insert myself into the conversation if I see it and give them hell because it's BS, and try to teach them WHY it's BS, largely by putting some foresight into their heads that their words do and can have consequences.
Am I going to fill the victim with false notions of eternal happiness? I don't recall ever saying that I would or have. Am I going to try to tell them that they're wanted, at least by me, and to rethink their plans to take their lives? Yes but I'm not going to fill their heads with sunshine and daisies and tell them that from hereon out everything will be sunshine and daisies because it never is, ESPECIALLY in the cases of clinical depression where it's a matter of hormone imbalances and the like which can be soothed with medication, cognitive behavioural therapy and even electroshock therapy, which I believe has made a recent comeback onto the 'treatment scene'.
I'd also like to think a doctor isn't going to euthanize a patient when there's a chance at recovery, as can be the case here.

And if you have a problem with the law making people who verbally abuse other's accountable, take it up with the people who create and enforce it. I'm neither saying it should or shouldn't happen I'm just saying that it can, and that it can be one of the consequences to doing as such.

Likewise I'd hardly call suicide victimless when you take into the account the family and friends who've just lost their loved one, presuming they're so fortunate to have such resources to draw from. The death of a loved one is a mood killer and can spiral into situational depression on the best of days when it was completely natural, but the suddenness of suicide?

There are also ways and methods to taking ones own life which makes it easier. Your hypothetical largely depends on the lack of safe-guarding, the height of the building and lack of heroic passerby for instance, all of which can make suicide a more difficult matter. I understand that where there's a will there's a way, but usually someone who's intending on taking their own life doesn't ACTUALLY want to die, so much as end the pain they're experiencing. Something which is likely to cause more pain, or be more difficult to do, can dissuade someone so 'helpful' people may give out tips and tricks to make it easier to do.
Which I've also seen happen.

Therein lies a huge part of the problem: human emotion. It's a factor that can't be removed from every equation, but it should be removed where it can. Look at the people who let brain dead family members kick around on life support for a while before someone finally talks them into letting go. That's just one example of the faulty human mind, and there are many more, especially when it comes to the topic of death, just because it is permanent.

I think it largely comes down to people wanting someone to blame. In my example with the doctor: say you come home and find your grandmother dead from gasbagging herself. You then find out that her doctor told her how to do this, because she was in extreme physical pain, and he would lose his livelihood if he prescribed her something medicinal to end her life, and that's the most painless method of suicide available. Instead of doing the logical thing and accepting that granny was in terrible pain and wanted out of it, most people are going to try to take the doctor down with every ounce of ability that they have, including litigation. Since granny's dead, blaming her is rather pointless, so let's go after the only living person who was in any way involved. It's asinine, to say the least. People make their own choices, and I am actually a very big proponent of Right to Die. Everyone owns their own life, and is free to give that possession away at any time, for any reason.

People always seem to want to take blame away from the dead and put it on someone/thing else. It's not just suicides. Hell, look at all of the lawsuits and other stupid crap being thrown at tobacco companies over the last two decades. Of course, part of it is financial greed, but the other part is that no one seems to want to think of their loved ones as being at fault for anything, especially after they are dead.

BEERRUNNER

This thread sucks!

sissiluv

Doctor's aren't going to tell their patient "I wouldn't care if you died. No one would. So just do it It would make everyone WAY more happier!" though. But an ignorant youth? Will. And in situations such as the above yes I'm going to insert myself into the conversation if I see it and give them hell because it's BS, and try to teach them WHY it's BS, largely by putting some foresight into their heads that their words do and can have consequences.
Am I going to fill the victim with false notions of eternal happiness? I don't recall ever saying that I would or have. Am I going to try to tell them that they're wanted, at least by me, and to rethink their plans to take their lives? Yes but I'm not going to fill their heads with sunshine and daisies and tell them that from hereon out everything will be sunshine and daisies because it never is, ESPECIALLY in the cases of clinical depression where it's a matter of hormone imbalances and the like which can be soothed with medication, cognitive behavioural therapy and even electroshock therapy, which I believe has made a recent comeback onto the 'treatment scene'.
I'd also like to think a doctor isn't going to euthanize a patient when there's a chance at recovery, as can be the case here.

And if you have a problem with the law making people who verbally abuse other's accountable, take it up with the people who create and enforce it. I'm neither saying it should or shouldn't happen I'm just saying that it can, and that it can be one of the consequences to doing as such.

Likewise I'd hardly call suicide victimless when you take into the account the family and friends who've just lost their loved one, presuming they're so fortunate to have such resources to draw from. The death of a loved one is a mood killer and can spiral into situational depression on the best of days when it was completely natural, but the suddenness of suicide?

There are also ways and methods to taking ones own life which makes it easier. Your hypothetical largely depends on the lack of safe-guarding, the height of the building and lack of heroic passerby for instance, all of which can make suicide a more difficult matter. I understand that where there's a will there's a way, but usually someone who's intending on taking their own life doesn't ACTUALLY want to die, so much as end the pain they're experiencing. Something which is likely to cause more pain, or be more difficult to do, can dissuade someone so 'helpful' people may give out tips and tricks to make it easier to do.
Which I've also seen happen.

Therein lies a huge part of the problem: human emotion. It's a factor that can't be removed from every equation, but it should be removed where it can. Look at the people who let brain dead family members kick around on life support for a while before someone finally talks them into letting go. That's just one example of the faulty human mind, and there are many more, especially when it comes to the topic of death, just because it is permanent.

I think it largely comes down to people wanting someone to blame. In my example with the doctor: say you come home and find your grandmother dead from gasbagging herself. You then find out that her doctor told her how to do this, because she was in extreme physical pain, and he would lose his livelihood if he prescribed her something medicinal to end her life, and that's the most painless method of suicide available. Instead of doing the logical thing and accepting that granny was in terrible pain and wanted out of it, most people are going to try to take the doctor down with every ounce of ability that they have, including litigation. Since granny's dead, blaming her is rather pointless, so let's go after the only living person who was in any way involved. It's asinine, to say the least. People make their own choices, and I am actually a very big proponent of Right to Die. Everyone owns their own life, and is free to give that possession away at any time, for any reason.

People always seem to want to take blame away from the dead and put it on someone/thing else. It's not just suicides. Hell, look at all of the lawsuits and other stupid crap being thrown at tobacco companies over the last two decades. Of course, part of it is financial greed, but the other part is that no one seems to want to think of their loved ones as being at fault for anything, especially after they are dead.

I'm afraid that I still can't agree, for the reasons that I've been saying since the start, in that people should be held accountable for what they say, and we should teach them to feel accountable. Teaching them the consequences of what may come out of their words is one way to do that, and a way which I will continue to do.

As always it was nice talking though. I'm going to cut it off here for now however, so I can work out. BBL.