breakfast still the most unhealthiest meal part two....
ndj1979
Posts: 29,136 Member
well the original thread was so popular that it hit 500 posts and rolled over..so here is part two...oh and here is the premise taken from an article that I found interesting..
The Reality
The only reasonable conclusion the facts support is that breakfast sucks.
It’s no secret that I’m not a fan of breakfast. When working with a new client in a physique or strength sport or the average person trying to lose a few pounds, more often than not, the first thing I say is, “stop eating breakfast.” Brian Carroll loves the excuse to skip breakfast as do a large number of people I work with. Like I once thought, they believe that breakfast is critical to mental and physical performance and they force themselves to eat it whether they want to or not.
Here’s a brief synopsis of hormonal-happenings around 7 AM for the average person. Cortisol levels elevate naturally through the night1-9 and peak2, 9-14. Uh oh, cortisol is catabolic and without food, the body’s going to start eating all that hard-earned muscle, right? Wrong. Catabolic only describes the process of something being broken down for energy. Cortisol, when acting without elevated insulin levels and in a natural manner — so without being constantly elevated like during chronic stress — triggers the breakdown of triglycerides into free-fatty acids (FFAs) for metabolization and triggers lipolysis1, 2, 14-28. Cortisol, in the morning, accelerates fat burning.
Ghrelin, the main hunger-control hormone32, is released in a pulsatile manner through the night with a peak occurring upon waking29-31, which incites hunger. Ghrelin not only causes hunger, but also potently stimulates growth hormone release33-44. As growth hormone levels raise the body releases more fat to be burned as fuel45-49 and decreases the destruction of protein for use as fuel50. Growth hormone levels peak roughly two hours after waking without breakfast51.
Every day the body starts as a fat-burning furnace. Even during exercise, without eating breakfast, the body burns far higher levels of fat than normal52, 53 and causes up regulation of the enzymes necessary to burn fat, allowing fat to be metabolized faster54.
Now contrast with what happens as soon as you eat breakfast, one that contains around 30 grams or more of carbs. As is well known, insulin levels raise with the rise in blood sugar, kick-starting a downward spiral: the early-morning release of insulin reduces fat burning for the entire rest of the day55; while cortisol levels remain high, the insulin release causes new empty fat cells to be created56-64; and the insulin lowers levels of ghrelin and growth hormone29-31, 51.
From the facts above—this is not what I think happens, this is what happens — one would come to the conclusion that maybe we should hold breakfast off for a bit when we get up, at least until cortisol levels return to normal and growth hormone levels fall naturally, which takes a few hours. Skipping breakfast looks like a way to lose body fat faster, or at least to keep it off.
At this point, you may think, “well, you’ve hobbled together a lot of research to explain your theory, but where are the results?” I’m not so obtuse as to think that a thorough understanding of anything means prediction is possible…a famous mathematician showed that you can know everything about how a system works and still not predict how the damn thing might act. Luckily for me and my hobbled together studies, researchers did test the idea that maybe breakfast isn’t so great.
If what I assume from the facts is true, then skipping breakfast and eating more food at the end of the day rather than the beginning should lead to more fat loss when trying to lose weight, especially if eating breakfast impairs fat burning for the entire day.
So what happened when researchers studied two groups, one that ate most of their calories in the beginning of the day, to simulate the no-eating-after-seven routine, and the other that skipped breakfast and ate most of their meals in the latter half of the day? Damn if I shouldn’t be embarrassed: the group that ate most of their calories early in the day, including a big breakfast, lost more weight than the other group65.
Hold on: there’s more to this story. The researchers also looked at body composition before and after. The morning group lost more weight but lost a lot more muscle and a lot less fat. The night group lost almost exclusively fat and preserved muscle65-69. Who knew, maybe there is something to this science stuff after all?
No matter what I say about fat loss, someone will say that skipping breakfast turns people into mental sloths. Does it really? You think so? I disagree and when I do in a public forum, someone always says — which I actually don’t believe — “Well, I design tests for grade schools and the kids that eat breakfast always perform the best; I have the studies but I don’t have the time to show you.” Even if they have them, they’re observation studies. They’re not experiments. Do experiments prove that breakfast improves cognitive abilities? Yes, if the person is malnourished70-73.
What about healthy kids? I know, it doesn’t seem right to take food away from kids in the morning, but some mean group of *kitten* did just that — and several more *kitten* did the same thing. They withheld breakfast from one group of kids, letting them eat at lunch, and the other group had a balanced breakfast. When kids skip breakfast they pay attention, behave, and perform better throughout the entire school day72-83. That’s the difference between observation and experiment. There must be some other factor relating eating breakfast to academic performance: both vary in the same way with socio-economic status84.
I can imagine the comments now saying I ignore the importance of breakfast because of this observational study or that observational study or some other justification that has no relevance to this discussion. The only point here is that breakfast is definitely not the most important meal of the day and can be detrimental. There are many reasons and ways to incorporate breakfast effectively. Carb Back-Loading™ is one example and Carb Nite® is another. When using either of these strategies for fat loss, I still tend to delay my first meal of the day until 11am or noon
Someone in a forum also referenced an article stating that skipping breakfast primes the body to get fat and slows fat burning, which is the opposite of the truth, but the article goes on to say that all of this can be avoided by adding some branched-chain amino acids in lieu of breakfast and suggests leucine, isoleucine and valine. This is probably a bad idea, as the amino acid leucine stimulates insulin release without the presence of glucose85-86 and may cause the same reactions as a carby breakfast.
As far as strength is concerned, there is little effect as long as glycogen stores remain adequate87-88, hence the application of Carb Back-Loading™ to strength, power and physique athletes.
Eating breakfast impairs fat burning, can aid in fat storage, lowers growth hormone levels and doesn’t offer cognitive benefits. What else can I say? Stop eating breakfast. You’ll thank me in the morning.
http://articles.elitefts.com/nutrition/logic-does-not-apply-part-2-breakfast/
The Reality
The only reasonable conclusion the facts support is that breakfast sucks.
It’s no secret that I’m not a fan of breakfast. When working with a new client in a physique or strength sport or the average person trying to lose a few pounds, more often than not, the first thing I say is, “stop eating breakfast.” Brian Carroll loves the excuse to skip breakfast as do a large number of people I work with. Like I once thought, they believe that breakfast is critical to mental and physical performance and they force themselves to eat it whether they want to or not.
Here’s a brief synopsis of hormonal-happenings around 7 AM for the average person. Cortisol levels elevate naturally through the night1-9 and peak2, 9-14. Uh oh, cortisol is catabolic and without food, the body’s going to start eating all that hard-earned muscle, right? Wrong. Catabolic only describes the process of something being broken down for energy. Cortisol, when acting without elevated insulin levels and in a natural manner — so without being constantly elevated like during chronic stress — triggers the breakdown of triglycerides into free-fatty acids (FFAs) for metabolization and triggers lipolysis1, 2, 14-28. Cortisol, in the morning, accelerates fat burning.
Ghrelin, the main hunger-control hormone32, is released in a pulsatile manner through the night with a peak occurring upon waking29-31, which incites hunger. Ghrelin not only causes hunger, but also potently stimulates growth hormone release33-44. As growth hormone levels raise the body releases more fat to be burned as fuel45-49 and decreases the destruction of protein for use as fuel50. Growth hormone levels peak roughly two hours after waking without breakfast51.
Every day the body starts as a fat-burning furnace. Even during exercise, without eating breakfast, the body burns far higher levels of fat than normal52, 53 and causes up regulation of the enzymes necessary to burn fat, allowing fat to be metabolized faster54.
Now contrast with what happens as soon as you eat breakfast, one that contains around 30 grams or more of carbs. As is well known, insulin levels raise with the rise in blood sugar, kick-starting a downward spiral: the early-morning release of insulin reduces fat burning for the entire rest of the day55; while cortisol levels remain high, the insulin release causes new empty fat cells to be created56-64; and the insulin lowers levels of ghrelin and growth hormone29-31, 51.
From the facts above—this is not what I think happens, this is what happens — one would come to the conclusion that maybe we should hold breakfast off for a bit when we get up, at least until cortisol levels return to normal and growth hormone levels fall naturally, which takes a few hours. Skipping breakfast looks like a way to lose body fat faster, or at least to keep it off.
At this point, you may think, “well, you’ve hobbled together a lot of research to explain your theory, but where are the results?” I’m not so obtuse as to think that a thorough understanding of anything means prediction is possible…a famous mathematician showed that you can know everything about how a system works and still not predict how the damn thing might act. Luckily for me and my hobbled together studies, researchers did test the idea that maybe breakfast isn’t so great.
If what I assume from the facts is true, then skipping breakfast and eating more food at the end of the day rather than the beginning should lead to more fat loss when trying to lose weight, especially if eating breakfast impairs fat burning for the entire day.
So what happened when researchers studied two groups, one that ate most of their calories in the beginning of the day, to simulate the no-eating-after-seven routine, and the other that skipped breakfast and ate most of their meals in the latter half of the day? Damn if I shouldn’t be embarrassed: the group that ate most of their calories early in the day, including a big breakfast, lost more weight than the other group65.
Hold on: there’s more to this story. The researchers also looked at body composition before and after. The morning group lost more weight but lost a lot more muscle and a lot less fat. The night group lost almost exclusively fat and preserved muscle65-69. Who knew, maybe there is something to this science stuff after all?
No matter what I say about fat loss, someone will say that skipping breakfast turns people into mental sloths. Does it really? You think so? I disagree and when I do in a public forum, someone always says — which I actually don’t believe — “Well, I design tests for grade schools and the kids that eat breakfast always perform the best; I have the studies but I don’t have the time to show you.” Even if they have them, they’re observation studies. They’re not experiments. Do experiments prove that breakfast improves cognitive abilities? Yes, if the person is malnourished70-73.
What about healthy kids? I know, it doesn’t seem right to take food away from kids in the morning, but some mean group of *kitten* did just that — and several more *kitten* did the same thing. They withheld breakfast from one group of kids, letting them eat at lunch, and the other group had a balanced breakfast. When kids skip breakfast they pay attention, behave, and perform better throughout the entire school day72-83. That’s the difference between observation and experiment. There must be some other factor relating eating breakfast to academic performance: both vary in the same way with socio-economic status84.
I can imagine the comments now saying I ignore the importance of breakfast because of this observational study or that observational study or some other justification that has no relevance to this discussion. The only point here is that breakfast is definitely not the most important meal of the day and can be detrimental. There are many reasons and ways to incorporate breakfast effectively. Carb Back-Loading™ is one example and Carb Nite® is another. When using either of these strategies for fat loss, I still tend to delay my first meal of the day until 11am or noon
Someone in a forum also referenced an article stating that skipping breakfast primes the body to get fat and slows fat burning, which is the opposite of the truth, but the article goes on to say that all of this can be avoided by adding some branched-chain amino acids in lieu of breakfast and suggests leucine, isoleucine and valine. This is probably a bad idea, as the amino acid leucine stimulates insulin release without the presence of glucose85-86 and may cause the same reactions as a carby breakfast.
As far as strength is concerned, there is little effect as long as glycogen stores remain adequate87-88, hence the application of Carb Back-Loading™ to strength, power and physique athletes.
Eating breakfast impairs fat burning, can aid in fat storage, lowers growth hormone levels and doesn’t offer cognitive benefits. What else can I say? Stop eating breakfast. You’ll thank me in the morning.
http://articles.elitefts.com/nutrition/logic-does-not-apply-part-2-breakfast/
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Replies
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oh and here is link to original thread -http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/902345-breakfast-the-most-unhealthiest-meal-of-the-day0
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In for round 2.0
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I'm not reading the article just yet but I'm seriously going to say that the phrase, "most unhealthiest" is irritatingly grammatically incorrect.0
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I'm not overly fussed about breakfast, if I want it I have it, if not I don't. I can say that no matter what i do have (even high protein) I am usually hungry again about 90 mins - 2 hrs after eating. So if I have breakfast as soon as I get to work at 8am.... I need to eat again between breakfast and lunch.
I can quite easily go without breakfast and feel hungry at 10am (up since 5), about the same as I would if I'd had breakfast at 8am.
But even with the scientific backing..... I would never send my kids off to school with no breakfast. It just feels wrong. And they aren't overweight and perform just fine with breakfast before they go. The amount of calories that kids do need, I just feel it would be a struggle to get the right amount of calories / calcium and all the other things they need in to 2 meals. My kids usually have weetabix with milk, some wholemeal toast and fruit juice for breakfast.0 -
If you're hungry in the morning, eat breakfast. If you're not hungry in the morning, don't eat breakfast. No one method, diet, etc., is right for everyone.0
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I roll out of bed, pee, weigh myself, then drink a bunch of water and have half a caffeine pill. I shower, get dressed, and go to work and have breakfast there at my desk. I end up eating breakfast about an hour, hour-fifteen after I wake up. It's enough time that I start getting hungry but not so early that I'm starving to death by lunchtime.
Works for me, and the caffeine helps kick me into gear. Seems to be a fine routine given the information in the OP.0 -
The body uses exogenous glucose (the carbs you eat) for energy when it's available (in the first few hours post-prandial), then glycogen stores (these are the carbs you ate before/glucose your body made before and stored), and THEN the body will begin gluconeogenesis from fatty acids in combination with using glycogen stores... so it's not until a glucose is NOT readily available that your body begins fat catabolism to source energy.
But then there's the whole fat burns in the flame of carbohydrates thing:
Lipolysis (the degradation of lipids (fats)) occurs with the input of intermediaries that are products of GLUCOSE catabolism- that is, in order for fats to burn, they need some of the compounds that breaking down glucose produces. BUT then again, the intermediaries of fat metabolism can be sourced from alternative sources (alanine--> pyruvate --> OOA) if there is excess Acetyl Co-A present (which is often the case when exogenous glucose is reduced/unavailable) so it's not NECESSARILY true that blood glucose is absolutely necessary for fat metabolism.
Anybody follow that? Nope? Yeah.. it doesn't have that much to do with this but I'm studying and typing it out benefits me. hah0 -
Some of us cant function without breakfast, literally.
If i dont eat in the morning after waking (something sensible!), I am very likely to faint before i hit work. It happened when i was in work once, not a pleasant experience for me or my work colleagues
Everyone's different but if you're stuffing yourself with sugar filled cereal, then you're setting yourself up for a fall.0 -
If you're hungry in the morning, eat breakfast. If you're not hungry in the morning, don't eat breakfast. No one method, diet, etc., is right for everyone.
yep! Eat when you're hungry, don't eat when you're not hungry. It's very simple LOL0 -
What do you suppose happens when you eat breakfast and *gasp* stimulate fat storage, but remain in a net energy deficit? You oxidize that fat between meals.
Any protocol, CBL included, that suggests an arbitrary benefit to net fat loss simply by moving nutrient timing around, seems like an overextension of data and lots of hand waving to me.
People used to believe they'd get shredded if they'd just eat all their carbs in the morning and they were right (although for different reasons).
People used to believe they'd get shredded by eating 6 times per day and they were right (although for different reasons).
You know what all of these and many other protocols have in common? Caloric deficits with good training and sufficient macro intake. Considering we see great results on massively different nutrient timings it would seem reasonable to believe that the timing aspect is of little importance.
I really think focusing on demonizing any particular food, meal, or macro or whatever, is just absolutely silly.0 -
I love breakfast.0
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Hold on grabbing some more Pop Tarts and a glass of Chocolate Milk (I didn't get enough for breakfast) Ok I'm in.......... :drinker:0
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Agreed........Meal timing and frequency relevance is obviously alive and well in this thread.......only proves that there's lots of money to be made in the diet industry and it doesn't even need to be accurate, only correlatively confusing.What do you suppose happens when you eat breakfast and *gasp* stimulate fat storage, but remain in a net energy deficit? You oxidize that fat between meals.
Any protocol, CBL included, that suggests an arbitrary benefit to net fat loss simply by moving nutrient timing around, seems like an overextension of data and lots of hand waving to me.
People used to believe they'd get shredded if they'd just eat all their carbs in the morning and they were right (although for different reasons).
People used to believe they'd get shredded by eating 6 times per day and they were right (although for different reasons).
You know what all of these and many other protocols have in common? Caloric deficits with good training and sufficient macro intake. Considering we see great results on massively different nutrient timings it would seem reasonable to believe that the timing aspect is of little importance.
I really think focusing on demonizing any particular food, meal, or macro or whatever, is just absolutely silly. 0 -
no0
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I would take out "unhealthiest" from the title! It sounds so wrong! There are no unhealthy meals or foods!0
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Surely just give a rest.0
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Give up already
By the way I lost all the weight in my ticker while eating breakfast0 -
Some of us cant function without breakfast, literally.
This is me. I don't care what other people do. If I don't eat within an hour of waking up, I feel like crap. Over the past few months, I've had two days where I had to have fasting bloodwork done in the morning. So where I'd normally be out of bed at 7 am and breakfast around 7:15, I didn't get to eat on those days until about 9:30. Let me tell you, I was not particularly pleasant to be around until I got food! I was nauseous, I was shaky, I was grumpy (hangry, I believe is the technical term) and I didn't feel right for hours even after I'd gotten something to eat. Other people can do what they want. I need breakfast.0 -
I'm not reading the article just yet but I'm seriously going to say that the phrase, "most unhealthiest" is irritatingly grammatically incorrect.
Hear, hear!
The other mistake that infects this board is "alot" for a lot and "loose" for lose (as in lose weight).
Grrr!0 -
Some of us cant function without breakfast, literally.
If i dont eat in the morning after waking (something sensible!), I am very likely to faint before i hit work. It happened when i was in work once, not a pleasant experience for me or my work colleagues
Everyone's different but if you're stuffing yourself with sugar filled cereal, then you're setting yourself up for a fall.0 -
Whether one need to eat breakfast depends entirely on what and when one ate the night before.
A nice slab of fatty steak will last me up to 20 hours. However, a banana for dinner would have me up and eating at 6am!0 -
I would like to point out theat breakfast is the first meal of the day, no matter what time it was consumed. so if the first meal of your day is on your lunch break at work guess what, thats breakfast.
the word "breakfast" means to break the fast, you dont eat when you sleep so over night you have fasted, when you eat you have broken the fast and had breakfast.
so please, unless you are advocating a no food diet (not a good recomendation) please dont say that breakfast is bad for you.0 -
LOL breakfast does NOT suck, at least my breakfasts don't. :drinker: :bigsmile:0
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Any article that uses registered trademark symbols in it is automatically invalid, as it's obviously biased toward pushing that trademarked product/service.
Sidesteel hit it perfectly. Timing is irrelevant in the face of sufficient macro intake, exercise, and caloric deficit.0 -
I'm not reading the article just yet but I'm seriously going to say that the phrase, "most unhealthiest" is irritatingly grammatically incorrect.
hahahaha thank you. I've been wanting to say the same thing.
at least troll with proper grammar.0 -
I'm not reading the article just yet but I'm seriously going to say that the phrase, "most unhealthiest" is irritatingly grammatically incorrect.
hahahaha thank you. I've been wanting to say the same thing.
at least troll with proper grammar.
it was done in jest as it caused a melt down of epic proportions in part 1 0 -
I'm not reading the article just yet but I'm seriously going to say that the phrase, "most unhealthiest" is irritatingly grammatically incorrect.
hahahaha thank you. I've been wanting to say the same thing.
at least troll with proper grammar.
it was done in jest as it caused a melt down of epic proportions in part 1
(part 1 had the same grammar issues)
ruh roh.0 -
I'm not reading the article just yet but I'm seriously going to say that the phrase, "most unhealthiest" is irritatingly grammatically incorrect.
hahahaha thank you. I've been wanting to say the same thing.
at least troll with proper grammar.
it was done in jest as it caused a melt down of epic proportions in part 1
(part 1 had the same grammar issues)
ruh roh.
part one was created during vodka three...
how does that one song go ...blame it on the aaaa alcohol" t-pain0 -
The body uses exogenous glucose (the carbs you eat) for energy when it's available (in the first few hours post-prandial), then glycogen stores (these are the carbs you ate before/glucose your body made before and stored), and THEN the body will begin gluconeogenesis from fatty acids in combination with using glycogen stores... so it's not until a glucose is NOT readily available that your body begins fat catabolism to source energy.
But then there's the whole fat burns in the flame of carbohydrates thing:
Lipolysis (the degradation of lipids (fats)) occurs with the input of intermediaries that are products of GLUCOSE catabolism- that is, in order for fats to burn, they need some of the compounds that breaking down glucose produces. BUT then again, the intermediaries of fat metabolism can be sourced from alternative sources (alanine--> pyruvate --> OOA) if there is excess Acetyl Co-A present (which is often the case when exogenous glucose is reduced/unavailable) so it's not NECESSARILY true that blood glucose is absolutely necessary for fat metabolism.
Anybody follow that? Nope? Yeah.. it doesn't have that much to do with this but I'm studying and typing it out benefits me. hah
woman talking metabolic science is so freaking sexy!0 -
I'm not reading the article just yet but I'm seriously going to say that the phrase, "most unhealthiest" is irritatingly grammatically incorrect.
hahahaha thank you. I've been wanting to say the same thing.
at least troll with proper grammar.
it was done in jest as it caused a melt down of epic proportions in part 1
(part 1 had the same grammar issues)
ruh roh.
part one was created during vodka three...
how does that one song go ...blame it on the aaaa alcohol" t-pain
or the Brad Paisley song. haha0
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