Knees barely past toes with squats - is it really that bad?

Cat_Lifts

I figured for the longest while I was doing my squats fairly correctly - thighs almost if not already parallel to floor, back in a straight/neutral position, head aligned with spine, but today at the gym a guy offered advice to help correct my form (I usually keep to myself at gym, have read many tutorials and watched countless videos of basic exercises, but still welcomed the help - I figured nothing can beat someone actually spotting you). I sometimes have the tendency to have my knees, barely, barely go over my toes, maybe by an inch or so. He gave me a small lecture on the horror stories of how it's absolutely terrible for you, for your knees, and so on. However, I have and never dealt with knee pain from squats, I feel my glutes and hamstrings workin', and even went I squat down, I'll press a hand right under the bootay/hamstring and make sure I feel it tensing.

The way he was teaching me, I continually keep rocking back/losing balance, toes almost instinctively kept raising, etc. After about 10 reps of doing it his way, I started to have some uncomfortable back pain. I felt like I was leaning too far forward at this point to try and counteract the slight knees-over-toes change. So I guess my question is, am I doing my squat improperly by having them ever so slightly over the toes? Or keep working with my current stance? I do both bodyweight squats and 30lb barbell squats, no smith machine. Oh and speaking of smith machine, he and his wife swore by it for squats with weights. After all the reviews of smith machines here, I'm wondering if I ought to take what he offered fairly lightly now...

Thank you all!

meshashesha2012

depends on the type squat.

front squat it's kind of unavoidable. also much of this i think would depend on the length of femur relative to tibia. i'd think as long as your heels are on the ground and your knees arent doing any buckling and are following the direction of your toes, then you should be fine.

but i could be wrong ...

as far as long balance if you're doing back squats then i think that slightly off balance feeling is common at first especially if you need to work on your hip mobility. focus on keeping your core tight since that will help keep you balanced. you might also try a wider stance

Troublemonster

I have seen a lot of threads on this topic at bodybuilding.com and it seems that this is the least of the concerns when it comes to squat form. The important thing is that you are spreading the floor with the heel to middle portion of your feet. Other than that if your form is solid then so be it. If the other form is causing you pain then it is probably not right, and definitely not right for you. As long as the right muscles are firing and you're not having abnormal pains then I would say you're doing something right.

I don't have any science to back it up but I doubt that at 30lbs max you'll really need to worry too much about form unless you either get so far out of whack that you lose the correct muscle tension or you decide to go heavy.

meshashesha2012

oh yeah and you shouldnt be leaning forward. that's probably what the pain is from. if you're leaning forward then you're actually doing some weird mix of a squat and good morning which very well could cause low back pain

chrishgt4

If you are doing standard back squats, then you knees have no choice but to move forwards.

I don't think mine go past the ends of my toes though so I'll give a couple of things that I do that helps me keep good form.


First, is on the way down I don't start to 'squat' right from the top. The first part of the motion it's as if I'm just sitting down on a chair that's behind me. Me lower legs stay dead straight up and it's just my *kitten* that rotates down. You'll get to a point where you can't go any further like that without losing balance and that's the point at which to allow your knees to drift forwards.

Second, is perhaps you have your legs too close together or too feet too straight forwards. A good squat has you sort of sitting between your legs, rather than behind them if that makes sense. It's difficult to explain I think, but you get there by as you drop having your knees go slightly more out to the side. Try, without weights, going down to the bottom of your squat. Now put your elbows in between your knees. Then push your knees outwards with your elbows and try to feel how your butt will probably shift position slightly so that it is more forwards, more between your legs, and you should see your knees will also be less far forward.

Also - if you decide you want to start working on your form - I would start with bodyweight squats until you're comfortable and confident you've got it right.

Those 2 things though, I've found, really help to get a good form, deep squat.

Perhaps you already have it right, but it's all about how much you are leaning/how far your toes go.

You will lean forwards a bit (there's no way you're gonna keep your back dead vertical)
You will have your knees move forwards.

It's just if you're leaning too far forwards with your knees overhanging your feet that it's clearly bad form.

From your description of what the guy was telling you though, I got the impression that his instructions would be more for the smith machine...

tattygun

Personally, I wouldn't take advice from a man that squats on the smith machine.

Lupercalia

Personally, I wouldn't take advice from a man that squats on the smith machine.

THIS.

jimmie65

Advice from a random guy at the gym and now you have back pain. It shouldn't be hard to figure out where the problem is.

Azdak

If you are doing standard back squats, then you knees have no choice but to move forwards.

I don't think mine go past the ends of my toes though so I'll give a couple of things that I do that helps me keep good form.


First, is on the way down I don't start to 'squat' right from the top. The first part of the motion it's as if I'm just sitting down on a chair that's behind me. Me lower legs stay dead straight up and it's just my *kitten* that rotates down. You'll get to a point where you can't go any further like that without losing balance and that's the point at which to allow your knees to drift forwards.

Second, is perhaps you have your legs too close together or too feet too straight forwards. A good squat has you sort of sitting between your legs, rather than behind them if that makes sense. It's difficult to explain I think, but you get there by as you drop having your knees go slightly more out to the side. Try, without weights, going down to the bottom of your squat. Now put your elbows in between your knees. Then push your knees outwards with your elbows and try to feel how your butt will probably shift position slightly so that it is more forwards, more between your legs, and you should see your knees will also be less far forward.

Also - if you decide you want to start working on your form - I would start with bodyweight squats until you're comfortable and confident you've got it right.

Those 2 things though, I've found, really help to get a good form, deep squat.

Perhaps you already have it right, but it's all about how much you are leaning/how far your toes go.

You will lean forwards a bit (there's no way you're gonna keep your back dead vertical)
You will have your knees move forwards.

It's just if you're leaning too far forwards with your knees overhanging your feet that it's clearly bad form.

From your description of what the guy was telling you though, I got the impression that his instructions would be more for the smith machine...

Yes--the "knees can't go over the toes" direction is outdated and often misguided. It's more important that you have the weight centered over your mid foot and that the angle of the back is parallel to the angle of the tibia (shins).

DavPul

He swears by Smith machine squats? I think we all know his qualifications now. Don't listen to his advice on ANY piece of equipment in the gym.

Toes can go past knees on squats. Squatting form will most often be determined by anatomy. Some knees will go further out, some toes will point out more than others, some stances will be wider. Once you have what is comfortable and safe locked in, stick with it unless you're getting advice from a professional lifting coach

ArroganceInStep

My knees pass my toes, they haven't broken yet.

danimalkeys

It's ok to have some forward lean, if you are doing it right this will naturally happen in order to keep the bar over your center of gravity. The key is to keep your head up and your chest out/shoulder blades pulled together, and lead with your head out of the bottom of the lift. Too many people will allow their hips to come up too fast and that's when you get into that good morning position. Drive the head back and up and your hips will follow. This will keep your back straight. Straight back doesn't mean straight up and down, it means not rounded over. The rounding is what can get you hurt. If you are having low back pain then you may have been rounding, or possibly, hit your low back in a way that it hadn't been hit before and its just normal soreness.

hill242

I squat with my feet angled 30ish degrees, under my shoulders. Knees go _out_ over the foot, which means my legs, if you look down at them, form a V shape. My knees are not going straight forward but out over those angled feet, keeping the knees out and wide. I also have a forward lean as I rack the bar low, but I do not have a relaxed spinal position (curved back). This is all Starting Strength/Rippetoe style back squatting. I find this really engages the hammies as well as quads. It should not cause knee pain as your knees are staying in alignment with the feet this way. No back pain, either.

khall86790

If you were getting pain whilst doing this, then it's not the right way for you to be doing it so I'd try not to listen to his advice too much on it.
Mine are very much the same as the way you do yours and I've been doing it this way for 5 months with not a single injury. As long as you keep an eye on your knees and bring them back in check if you ever do go over then it's not a problem. I think it's one of those things where you need to pay attention to your body and do what works for you, whilst keeping within the guidelines

Cat_Lifts

Man, you all rock. Thank you so much for the advice. I gave the guy in a gym a shot because he and his lady were in fairly great shape, claimed to have been doing it for years, and as this being my first gym, I figured it was more help than harm - an opportunity to improve. But, again, once that smith machine comment came up, I remembered MFP goers advice and a red flag went up, haha...

In any case, it's good to know that at least I'm not doing it terribly wrong. My back stays in the proper form (not leaning too far forward), and again the actual feeling of the flexing (and burn!) in the butt and hamstrings leads me to believe I'm at least targeting the correct muscles. Thank you all again!

kjm3579

There's some good videos online such as StrongLifts 4x4 that show how to do squats properly.

jfan175

It sounds like you might not flexible enough in the achilles area. When you squat down, your heels should not come up at all. When you come up, you should be pushing with your entire foot...with a lot of power being generated by the heel. Knees coming forward can be a sign that your heels are coming up, and the lack of balance could be due to the weight pushing the heels back down. My advice would be to keep the weights light until you develop the flexibility to squat properly.

Cat_Lifts

It sounds like you might not flexible enough in the achilles area. When you squat down, your heels should not come up at all. When you come up, you should be pushing with your entire foot...with a lot of power being generated by the heel. Knees coming forward can be a sign that your heels are coming up, and the lack of balance could be due to the weight pushing the heels back down. My advice would be to keep the weights light until you develop the flexibility to squat properly.

Heels are staying down the entire time, with a majority of the weight on the heel and mid foot at the bottom of my squat. Like I mentioned before, the amount that my knees pass my toes is extremely small - I just wondered if that inch or two of crossing over the toes is really that improper or going to lead to a less effective squat. The flexibility part may definitely be an issue though, as I feel like I ought to be deeper in my squat (I'm almost, if not already parallel - it's more of a balance issue at this point while keeping my knees above the toes).

BarackMeLikeAHurricane

He lost all credibility when he said smith machine. If you're having problems with form ask a trainer to watch you.

Cat_Lifts

A few more questions, is it bad to have your toes raise up as you squat down? Is it necessary to have the whole foot planted going down and up? Being overweight (5'2", 190lbs) and doing/attempting a full parallel body weight squat can be difficult when you have an extra 40-50lbs of your own weight added on yourself, especially the midsection where everything starts to crowd when you're squatting down. :frown:

I had my boyfriend spot me tonight on a few bodyweight squats, and said my knees/toe range looked good, but even though my back was flat, I was apparently leaning way too far forward. Occasionally I'll also lose balance as I'm coming to/at parallel position, feeling like I'm going to fall back, which can be frustrating. Any advice on these matters? Perhaps focusing more on stretching the hips/hamstrings will help? Considering recording a short video of a few squat reps to get recommendations on what to correct. Thank you!

neandermagnon

I'd be interested in the answers to some of these questions. I've always been told, and read that knees over toes is bad, but recently someone here (someone who is generally knowledgable about fitness) said that's not always correct.

I also read somewhere else on here that "a*s to grass" squats are bad for the knees, however I've always done *kitten* to grass squats, and not had any knee problems. I'd be interested to know if that's correct, seeing as so many books, instructional videos etc include atg squats. I prefer atg squats, and the maximum range of motion generally for any exercise.

Regards keeping your balance - I have this problem if I do squats with my feet too close together. For bodyweight squats I can *just about* balance in a squat position (a*s to grass) with my feet shoulder width apart, if I stretch my arms out in front of me, even then I'm only just balanced, and have never tried a barbell squat with my feet this close together, even if I hold my hands by my shoulders as if holding an imaginary barbell I fall backwards. So no point even attempting it with a barbell. However i if I keep my stance wide, a bit further than shoulder width apart (but not as wide as an actual wide stance squat), I can maintain my balance just fine and I'm currently doing 80lb+ for reps without any problems balancing. I'm sure body proportions have a lot to do with this, I'm 5'1" with short legs and a large frame, I actually have very good balance, I can do one leg deadlifts with no balance difficulties and I used to play ice hockey, and I don't have joint mobility problems either, just that I have short legs and a large frame and my centre of gravity is too far back to balance in a squat position with my feet in front of my body (as opposed to either side of it, as in a wider stance squat). I can't do pistol squats for the same reason.

Vailara

I'm also interested in the answers here. I do a bit of ballet and the ballet "squats"/plies do take your knees over your toes (and your heels have to come up in full plies in certain positions). I've been wondering if these are bad for my knees.

danimalkeys

Being able to lift your toes is actually a good thing. It means your weight is balanced over the main part of your foot.

If your leaning too far, concentrate on driving your head back and up. I mentioned this in a prior post- if you do this it'll keep your hips down longer. Your head should be the 1st thing that moves when you start to come up from the bottom of the lift (just like it should for deadlifts). Make sure you keep your head up at the bottom of the lift too, you dont' want to be looking down, or even straight ahead. Pick a spot on the wall or some other fixed object that is a little higher than eye level when you are standing. Focus on that the entire rep, that will keep your head up.

Cat_Lifts

Regards keeping your balance - I have this problem if I do squats with my feet too close together. For bodyweight squats I can *just about* balance in a squat position (a*s to grass) with my feet shoulder width apart, if I stretch my arms out in front of me, even then I'm only just balanced, and have never tried a barbell squat with my feet this close together, even if I hold my hands by my shoulders as if holding an imaginary barbell I fall backwards. So no point even attempting it with a barbell. However i if I keep my stance wide, a bit further than shoulder width apart (but not as wide as an actual wide stance squat), I can maintain my balance just fine and I'm currently doing 80lb+ for reps without any problems balancing. I'm sure body proportions have a lot to do with this, I'm 5'1" with short legs and a large frame, I actually have very good balance, I can do one leg deadlifts with no balance difficulties and I used to play ice hockey, and I don't have joint mobility problems either, just that I have short legs and a large frame and my centre of gravity is too far back to balance in a squat position with my feet in front of my body (as opposed to either side of it, as in a wider stance squat). I can't do pistol squats for the same reason.

That's my problem with bodyweight squats! Arms straight out ahead, I can just about hit parallel until the toes raise up, I start to rock back on my heels, then have to correct myself. What's interesting is when I do it with a barbell, I don't get that fall back feeling - then again, I may be leaning forward to much, but the back stays straight, not rounded.

Being able to lift your toes is actually a good thing. It means your weight is balanced over the main part of your foot.

If your leaning too far, concentrate on driving your head back and up. I mentioned this in a prior post- if you do this it'll keep your hips down longer. Your head should be the 1st thing that moves when you start to come up from the bottom of the lift (just like it should for deadlifts). Make sure you keep your head up at the bottom of the lift too, you dont' want to be looking down, or even straight ahead. Pick a spot on the wall or some other fixed object that is a little higher than eye level when you are standing. Focus on that the entire rep, that will keep your head up.

Awesome, thank you! I've been looking ahead most of the time with my squats. I'll give it a go with glancing up a bit more. I'm believing it's a flexibility issue as well in terms of how low I can get - perhaps even strengthening my core a bit more as well.

edit: got a video incoming, just taking a bit to upload.

ninerbuff

Yes--the "knees can't go over the toes" direction is outdated and often misguided. It's more important that you have the weight centered over your mid foot and that the angle of the back is parallel to the angle of the tibia (shins).

THIS.

There is more studies showing that a little "knee going past the toes" action actually is safer and more effective than keeping the knee inline with the toes when squatting.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Cat_Lifts

Yes--the "knees can't go over the toes" direction is outdated and often misguided. It's more important that you have the weight centered over your mid foot and that the angle of the back is parallel to the angle of the tibia (shins).

THIS.

There is more studies showing that a little "knee going past the toes" action actually is safer and more effective than keeping the knee inline with the toes when squatting.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Could you explain why it's safer and more effective? Just in case anyone feels like telling me otherwise, I'll have a little ammo to back me up.

3RachaelFaith3

when you are doing it correctly, you will indeed feel like you're about to fall. Hope that helps.

SoLongAndThanksForAllTheFish

First off, if you are weightlifting the way "random guy at gym" tells you and have pain, its wrong, stop. You should not let your knees go past your toes for certain machines and wall squats, otherwise the amount depends on your body, how deep you are going and how much weight you are doing. 30lbs is not much weight to worry about if you do not have knee problems to start with, ignore any advice that causes you pain and get someone who knows what he's talking about to have a look at you do them where and how YOU do them to assess the mechanics of your individual situation.

Cat_Lifts

First off, if you are weightlifting the way "random guy at gym" tells you and have pain, its wrong, stop. You should not let your knees go past your toes for certain machines and wall squats, otherwise the amount depends on your body, how deep you are going and how much weight you are doing. 30lbs is not much weight to worry about if you do not have knee problems to start with, ignore any advice that causes you pain and get someone who knows what he's talking about to have a look at you do them where and how YOU do them to assess the mechanics of your individual situation.

Unfortunately one of the trainers at the gym who's been teaching for 8+ years says not to go past knees too, even body squats. I've never been able to do *kitten*-to-grass without falling back or having my heels come up. :embarassed:

when you are doing it correctly, you will indeed feel like you're about to fall. Hope that helps.

Does that feeling eventually go away the stronger/more controlled I become of my squats? Thank you!

dstromley1

Personally, I wouldn't take advice from a man that squats on the smith machine.

i use the smith machine quiitte a bit. my squat is over 500. soo id say it has a purpose.

and as far as the knee over toes thing. if your back is in flat and ur not leaning ridiculously far forwarrd dont worry about it. focus more on going as low as possible and the flexibility will come in time.

ninerbuff

Yes--the "knees can't go over the toes" direction is outdated and often misguided. It's more important that you have the weight centered over your mid foot and that the angle of the back is parallel to the angle of the tibia (shins).

THIS.

There is more studies showing that a little "knee going past the toes" action actually is safer and more effective than keeping the knee inline with the toes when squatting.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Could you explain why it's safer and more effective? Just in case anyone feels like telling me otherwise, I'll have a little ammo to back me up.

In 2003 the Journal of Strength and Conditioning published a study in which volunteers were asked to squat two ways: allowing the knees to pass in front of the toes and not allowing them to do so. They found that not allowing the knees to pass in front of the toes reduced knee torque. That’s good, right? Wrong. Because this technique also increased hip torque by more than 1,000 percent! Those forces displaced from the knees by squatting unnaturally were simply transferred to the low back, a joint that is far more susceptible to injury in a squatting exercise than the knees.

Not everyone should aim to get their knees past their toes when squatting or lunging, however. It’s a matter of individual anatomy. People with shorter legs often squat and lunge quite naturally without excursion of the knees beyond the toes. Taller folks tend to naturally push the knees beyond the toes. You need to let your individual body move as it was designed to do.

For a variety of reasons, most people do squat or lunge with bad form. So it’s a good idea to learn correct technique from someone who knows what he’s talking about. If the person teaching you correct squat or lunge technique tells you not to let your knees past your toes, you now know that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

One other thing: Just watch your knees as you climb stairs. Your knee will invariably go past your toes as you do this.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition