Knees barely past toes with squats - is it really that bad?

Vailara

I'm also interested in the answers here. I do a bit of ballet and the ballet "squats"/plies do take your knees over your toes (and your heels have to come up in full plies in certain positions). I've been wondering if these are bad for my knees.

danimalkeys

Being able to lift your toes is actually a good thing. It means your weight is balanced over the main part of your foot.

If your leaning too far, concentrate on driving your head back and up. I mentioned this in a prior post- if you do this it'll keep your hips down longer. Your head should be the 1st thing that moves when you start to come up from the bottom of the lift (just like it should for deadlifts). Make sure you keep your head up at the bottom of the lift too, you dont' want to be looking down, or even straight ahead. Pick a spot on the wall or some other fixed object that is a little higher than eye level when you are standing. Focus on that the entire rep, that will keep your head up.

Cat_Lifts

Regards keeping your balance - I have this problem if I do squats with my feet too close together. For bodyweight squats I can *just about* balance in a squat position (a*s to grass) with my feet shoulder width apart, if I stretch my arms out in front of me, even then I'm only just balanced, and have never tried a barbell squat with my feet this close together, even if I hold my hands by my shoulders as if holding an imaginary barbell I fall backwards. So no point even attempting it with a barbell. However i if I keep my stance wide, a bit further than shoulder width apart (but not as wide as an actual wide stance squat), I can maintain my balance just fine and I'm currently doing 80lb+ for reps without any problems balancing. I'm sure body proportions have a lot to do with this, I'm 5'1" with short legs and a large frame, I actually have very good balance, I can do one leg deadlifts with no balance difficulties and I used to play ice hockey, and I don't have joint mobility problems either, just that I have short legs and a large frame and my centre of gravity is too far back to balance in a squat position with my feet in front of my body (as opposed to either side of it, as in a wider stance squat). I can't do pistol squats for the same reason.

That's my problem with bodyweight squats! Arms straight out ahead, I can just about hit parallel until the toes raise up, I start to rock back on my heels, then have to correct myself. What's interesting is when I do it with a barbell, I don't get that fall back feeling - then again, I may be leaning forward to much, but the back stays straight, not rounded.

Being able to lift your toes is actually a good thing. It means your weight is balanced over the main part of your foot.

If your leaning too far, concentrate on driving your head back and up. I mentioned this in a prior post- if you do this it'll keep your hips down longer. Your head should be the 1st thing that moves when you start to come up from the bottom of the lift (just like it should for deadlifts). Make sure you keep your head up at the bottom of the lift too, you dont' want to be looking down, or even straight ahead. Pick a spot on the wall or some other fixed object that is a little higher than eye level when you are standing. Focus on that the entire rep, that will keep your head up.

Awesome, thank you! I've been looking ahead most of the time with my squats. I'll give it a go with glancing up a bit more. I'm believing it's a flexibility issue as well in terms of how low I can get - perhaps even strengthening my core a bit more as well.

edit: got a video incoming, just taking a bit to upload.

ninerbuff

Yes--the "knees can't go over the toes" direction is outdated and often misguided. It's more important that you have the weight centered over your mid foot and that the angle of the back is parallel to the angle of the tibia (shins).

THIS.

There is more studies showing that a little "knee going past the toes" action actually is safer and more effective than keeping the knee inline with the toes when squatting.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Cat_Lifts

Yes--the "knees can't go over the toes" direction is outdated and often misguided. It's more important that you have the weight centered over your mid foot and that the angle of the back is parallel to the angle of the tibia (shins).

THIS.

There is more studies showing that a little "knee going past the toes" action actually is safer and more effective than keeping the knee inline with the toes when squatting.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Could you explain why it's safer and more effective? Just in case anyone feels like telling me otherwise, I'll have a little ammo to back me up.

3RachaelFaith3

when you are doing it correctly, you will indeed feel like you're about to fall. Hope that helps.

SoLongAndThanksForAllTheFish

First off, if you are weightlifting the way "random guy at gym" tells you and have pain, its wrong, stop. You should not let your knees go past your toes for certain machines and wall squats, otherwise the amount depends on your body, how deep you are going and how much weight you are doing. 30lbs is not much weight to worry about if you do not have knee problems to start with, ignore any advice that causes you pain and get someone who knows what he's talking about to have a look at you do them where and how YOU do them to assess the mechanics of your individual situation.

Cat_Lifts

First off, if you are weightlifting the way "random guy at gym" tells you and have pain, its wrong, stop. You should not let your knees go past your toes for certain machines and wall squats, otherwise the amount depends on your body, how deep you are going and how much weight you are doing. 30lbs is not much weight to worry about if you do not have knee problems to start with, ignore any advice that causes you pain and get someone who knows what he's talking about to have a look at you do them where and how YOU do them to assess the mechanics of your individual situation.

Unfortunately one of the trainers at the gym who's been teaching for 8+ years says not to go past knees too, even body squats. I've never been able to do *kitten*-to-grass without falling back or having my heels come up. :embarassed:

when you are doing it correctly, you will indeed feel like you're about to fall. Hope that helps.

Does that feeling eventually go away the stronger/more controlled I become of my squats? Thank you!

dstromley1

Personally, I wouldn't take advice from a man that squats on the smith machine.

i use the smith machine quiitte a bit. my squat is over 500. soo id say it has a purpose.

and as far as the knee over toes thing. if your back is in flat and ur not leaning ridiculously far forwarrd dont worry about it. focus more on going as low as possible and the flexibility will come in time.

ninerbuff

Yes--the "knees can't go over the toes" direction is outdated and often misguided. It's more important that you have the weight centered over your mid foot and that the angle of the back is parallel to the angle of the tibia (shins).

THIS.

There is more studies showing that a little "knee going past the toes" action actually is safer and more effective than keeping the knee inline with the toes when squatting.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Could you explain why it's safer and more effective? Just in case anyone feels like telling me otherwise, I'll have a little ammo to back me up.

In 2003 the Journal of Strength and Conditioning published a study in which volunteers were asked to squat two ways: allowing the knees to pass in front of the toes and not allowing them to do so. They found that not allowing the knees to pass in front of the toes reduced knee torque. That’s good, right? Wrong. Because this technique also increased hip torque by more than 1,000 percent! Those forces displaced from the knees by squatting unnaturally were simply transferred to the low back, a joint that is far more susceptible to injury in a squatting exercise than the knees.

Not everyone should aim to get their knees past their toes when squatting or lunging, however. It’s a matter of individual anatomy. People with shorter legs often squat and lunge quite naturally without excursion of the knees beyond the toes. Taller folks tend to naturally push the knees beyond the toes. You need to let your individual body move as it was designed to do.

For a variety of reasons, most people do squat or lunge with bad form. So it’s a good idea to learn correct technique from someone who knows what he’s talking about. If the person teaching you correct squat or lunge technique tells you not to let your knees past your toes, you now know that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

One other thing: Just watch your knees as you climb stairs. Your knee will invariably go past your toes as you do this.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Cat_Lifts

Okay, here's the video. Excuse the crummy hair - just got out of the shower!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHhC9vZZrto

edit: You rock, ninerbuff. Thank you for the information!

ninerbuff

Personally, I wouldn't take advice from a man that squats on the smith machine.

i use the smith machine quiitte a bit. my squat is over 500. soo id say it has a purpose.

and as far as the knee over toes thing. if your back is in flat and ur not leaning ridiculously far forwarrd dont worry about it. focus more on going as low as possible and the flexibility will come in time.

A 500lbs squat on a Smith machine doesn't even come close to equating what one actually squats with free weights. One doing that weight would be challenged to do just a free weight squat just 100lbs-150lbs less in weight.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Cat_Lifts

Woops, video got cut off, but the most important parts I wanted to check out I showed. In the vid I am barely getting barely, except maybe on the last one... kind of.

SoLongAndThanksForAllTheFish

It doesn't matter if he's had 100 years experience and is a doctor in 10 subjects, if you have back pain squatting a new way where you didn't before, something is wrong, stop. Maybe your back is not straight, maybe you have something else going on that for you makes the biomechanics of this position not good for your joints etc. A weight training exercise causing spontaneous pain over rides any "advice" you can get from an "expert"... stop and get someone else to check your posture while you are squatting and assess problems in stance, back/head position, etc.

BTW, I have much more experience and degrees than that trainer guaranteed, and leg press over 900lbs for reps (no I don't squat anymore due to past back issues and its a pain in the butt to squat heavy safely and avoid shoulder bruises), but even so I still want someone who is THERE to look at you, not give specific advice when I haven't seen and assessed you doing the exercise firsthand, as everyone should do before advising.

You should NOT have pain when in the act of doing the weighted exercise (unless you are talking muscular "I'm sore from yesterday's workout" type pain ).

Cat_Lifts

It doesn't matter if he's had 100 years experience and is a doctor in 10 subjects, if you have back pain squatting a new way where you didn't before, something is wrong, stop. Maybe your back is not straight, maybe you have something else going on that for you makes the biomechanics of this position not good for your joints etc. A weight training exercise causing spontaneous pain over rides any "advice" you can get from an "expert"... stop and get someone else to check your posture while you are squatting and assess problems in stance, back/head position, etc.

BTW, I have much more experience and degrees than that trainer guaranteed, and leg press over 900lbs for reps (no I don't squat anymore due to past back issues and its a pain in the butt to squat heavy safely and avoid shoulder bruises), but even so I still want someone who is THERE to look at you, not give specific advice when I haven't seen and assessed you doing the exercise firsthand, as everyone should do before advising.

You should NOT have pain when in the act of doing the weighted exercise (unless you are talking muscular "I'm sore from yesterday's workout" type pain ).

Given the video I posted above, what do you think of the position of my head and back? Does it seem fairly aligned without leaning too far forward? Thank you!

danimalkeys

Head and back look good, just work on getting deeper. I know it's hard but you need to sit back into it more. You can get there- with bodyweight only you'll have to lean forward even a little more to get your hips down further.

You could practice with a box squat kind of motion- get a milk crate and squat down to that, let your butt just touch the crate and then come up. It'll help you get comfortable with the depth you want. If you can't hit the crate, put a couple phone books on it and practice hitting those and gradually work down to the crate alone.

Cat_Lifts

Head and back look good, just work on getting deeper. I know it's hard but you need to sit back into it more. You can get there- with bodyweight only you'll have to lean forward even a little more to get your hips down further.

You could practice with a box squat kind of motion- get a milk crate and squat down to that, let your butt just touch the crate and then come up. It'll help you get comfortable with the depth you want. If you can't hit the crate, put a couple phone books on it and practice hitting those and gradually work down to the crate alone.

Thank you so much for the feedback - I'll be working on it more! Tonight at gym I was doing shoulder press squats with dumbbells, and before hand I did a few good hip stretches - felt like I got much lower as I noticed more of a burn than usual! So that's hopeful.

jackaroo21

It's ok to have some forward lean, if you are doing it right this will naturally happen in order to keep the bar over your center of gravity. The key is to keep your head up and your chest out/shoulder blades pulled together, and lead with your head out of the bottom of the lift. Too many people will allow their hips to come up too fast and that's when you get into that good morning position. Drive the head back and up and your hips will follow. This will keep your back straight. Straight back doesn't mean straight up and down, it means not rounded over. The rounding is what can get you hurt. If you are having low back pain then you may have been rounding, or possibly, hit your low back in a way that it hadn't been hit before and its just normal soreness.

You are giving some great advice. Can you explain the leading with head out of bottom of lift. Not sure i understand it yet. Thanks

neandermagnon

Yes--the "knees can't go over the toes" direction is outdated and often misguided. It's more important that you have the weight centered over your mid foot and that the angle of the back is parallel to the angle of the tibia (shins).

THIS.

There is more studies showing that a little "knee going past the toes" action actually is safer and more effective than keeping the knee inline with the toes when squatting.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Could you explain why it's safer and more effective? Just in case anyone feels like telling me otherwise, I'll have a little ammo to back me up.

In 2003 the Journal of Strength and Conditioning published a study in which volunteers were asked to squat two ways: allowing the knees to pass in front of the toes and not allowing them to do so. They found that not allowing the knees to pass in front of the toes reduced knee torque. That’s good, right? Wrong. Because this technique also increased hip torque by more than 1,000 percent! Those forces displaced from the knees by squatting unnaturally were simply transferred to the low back, a joint that is far more susceptible to injury in a squatting exercise than the knees.

Not everyone should aim to get their knees past their toes when squatting or lunging, however. It’s a matter of individual anatomy. People with shorter legs often squat and lunge quite naturally without excursion of the knees beyond the toes. Taller folks tend to naturally push the knees beyond the toes. You need to let your individual body move as it was designed to do.

For a variety of reasons, most people do squat or lunge with bad form. So it’s a good idea to learn correct technique from someone who knows what he’s talking about. If the person teaching you correct squat or lunge technique tells you not to let your knees past your toes, you now know that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

One other thing: Just watch your knees as you climb stairs. Your knee will invariably go past your toes as you do this.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Thank you, this makes perfect sense

Incidentally, i have short legs, never had a problem with my knees going further forward than my toes, and also when walking up stairs, my knees don't go further forward than my toes whether I go up one stair at a time or two at a time, although going downstairs they do, but they're not bearing my weight in the same way when going downstairs (yes I just went to check after reading this lol).

Are "*ss to grass" squats bad for the knees? Someone elsewhere on this forum said they were (or that going to the point where the calf muscle makes contact with the hamstring was bad for the knees). I do atg squats all the time, with no knee pain.

Sarauk2sf

It has been covered already, but slightly over knees is fine as long as it's not because of otherwise bad form.