Calling BS on the starvation mode (plz no E/D rants)
Danger2OneSelf
Posts: 883 Member
Before I go any further I want to say this, I know eating a low calorie diet is mentally unhealthy to some individuals, particularly those who suffer from eating disorders, and I respect the opinion of those who struggle with them. I am just talking from the perspective of someone with out one who has a mentally sound grasp on their body and eating habits.
This is probably one of the most controversial subjects on this site. I personally think that if you eat to little the only way your body can compensate for that is by slowing your base* metabolic rate down a bit, but quite frankly think it is impossible for you body to just say screw you, I'm gonna take all the food you give me and store it as fat! I've played around with my food consumption and exercise enough to know my own body.
It's a scientific fact that when a person goes with out food the body first uses any available carbs in the system, then the fat reserve's, and finally it starts to break down its own muscle tissue (mainly from voluntary muscles) to supply the essential organ functions with energy to survive. So that goes to say that starvation mode, in the sense of muscle wasting, is only obtained by complete starvation and complete fat reservoir depletion, only then I would think, the body would start to use critical tissue to survive.
So please someone put this hype to rest and try to convince me of the contrary. I wanna know how having too big of a caloric deficit while still having an above "very lean" b/f% is somehow making people more fat? It just doesn't make sense to me at all?
This is probably one of the most controversial subjects on this site. I personally think that if you eat to little the only way your body can compensate for that is by slowing your base* metabolic rate down a bit, but quite frankly think it is impossible for you body to just say screw you, I'm gonna take all the food you give me and store it as fat! I've played around with my food consumption and exercise enough to know my own body.
It's a scientific fact that when a person goes with out food the body first uses any available carbs in the system, then the fat reserve's, and finally it starts to break down its own muscle tissue (mainly from voluntary muscles) to supply the essential organ functions with energy to survive. So that goes to say that starvation mode, in the sense of muscle wasting, is only obtained by complete starvation and complete fat reservoir depletion, only then I would think, the body would start to use critical tissue to survive.
So please someone put this hype to rest and try to convince me of the contrary. I wanna know how having too big of a caloric deficit while still having an above "very lean" b/f% is somehow making people more fat? It just doesn't make sense to me at all?
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Replies
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I wouldn't say it is making them more fat but I do agree that without weight training you will lose muscle as well as fat. I have heard that starvation mode doesn't really apply to the obese but it does for the overweight (per BMI) and normal range.0
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^^I've heard that as well, but for instance I eat less then 1500 cals while I am cutting (currently am btw) and I still am able to achieve measurable and observable muscle gains while I loose the fat quite quickly...so I just don't see how that can happen given that logic?
*note* I do strength train regularly btw, in fact it's the focus of my workouts, so I can train my muscle as much as possible rather then just non stop cardio.0 -
Your assertion that "when a person goes with out food the body first uses any available carbs in the system, then the fat reserve's, and finally it starts to break down its own muscle tissue (mainly from voluntary muscles)" is NOT scientific fat, but rather wishful thinking.
A low calorie diet or cardio exercise is going to cause you to lose muscle alongside fat, especially if you're not doing resistance training as well. This web page--http://www.livestrong.com/article/187596-does-your-body-burn-muscle-before-fat/ --has a concise explanation of several of the issues you bring up, including links to reputable sources.
Sneak preview: "According to the National Council on Strength and Fitness, or NCSF, those who fast or skip meals start to lose mainly lean muscle tissue."0 -
Your assertion that "when a person goes with out food the body first uses any available carbs in the system, then the fat reserve's, and finally it starts to break down its own muscle tissue (mainly from voluntary muscles)" is NOT scientific fat, but rather wishful thinking.
A low calorie diet or cardio exercise is going to cause you to lose muscle alongside fat, especially if you're not doing resistance training as well. This web page--http://www.livestrong.com/article/187596-does-your-body-burn-muscle-before-fat/ --has a concise explanation of several of the issues you bring up, including links to reputable sources.
Sneak preview: "According to the National Council on Strength and Fitness, or NCSF, those who fast or skip meals start to lose mainly lean muscle tissue."
They keep coming to the point that inorder to maintain max muscle mass while loosing fat you must aim to no more then 2lbs a week. So given that is it safe to assume that the body can only use up fat reserves so quickly and anything faster then that given range and the body starts to depend on muscle tissue for for extra energy?0 -
Before I go any further I want to say this, I know eating a low calorie diet is mentally unhealthy to some individuals, particularly those who suffer from eating disorders, and I respect the opinion of those who struggle with them. I am just talking from the perspective of someone with out one who has a mentally sound grasp on their body and eating habits.
This is probably one of the most controversial subjects on this site. I personally think that if you eat to little the only way your body can compensate for that is by slowing your base* metabolic rate down a bit, but quite frankly think it is impossible for you body to just say screw you, I'm gonna take all the food you give me and store it as fat! I've played around with my food consumption and exercise enough to know my own body.
It's a scientific fact that when a person goes with out food the body first uses any available carbs in the system, then the fat reserve's, and finally it starts to break down its own muscle tissue (mainly from voluntary muscles) to supply the essential organ functions with energy to survive. So that goes to say that starvation mode, in the sense of muscle wasting, is only obtained by complete starvation and complete fat reservoir depletion, only then I would think, the body would start to use critical tissue to survive.
So please someone put this hype to rest and try to convince me of the contrary. I wanna know how having too big of a caloric deficit while still having an above "very lean" b/f% is somehow making people more fat? It just doesn't make sense to me at all?
I am with you, bud. Someone in the latest community sh*tfest actually claimed that if you eat less than 1200 cals, your Body will consume your MUSCLES instead of your FAT. And the scientific basis for that is___________?0 -
OP you will die if you eat below your BMR for an extended period of time, DEATH!!!0
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OP you will die if you eat below your BMR for an extended period of time, DEATH!!!
*kitten*, Alright I'm cracking a beer and pizza is in the oven...thanks bro you just saved my life!0 -
Well I am overweight and I am having a tough time understanding this exact topic. I am taking in around 1200 calories a day and exercising a minimum 45 minutes a day 5 days a week (it feels like I am eating plenty and you can check out my diary). In my first week I lost 3 lbs. But my exercise is all cardio mostly. So what confuses me is that people say I’m going to die if I don’t eat more but that’s the whole reason I’m fat in the first place. Am I really losing muscle instead of fat and am I really going to go through shock and die?0
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I think severe calorie deficit can work but the key is for the body to come to terms that nothing more is coming its way, for it to start eating up the fat stores. This is my guess and based on what I have read online. If the body feels something is coming in, it will wait and hold on to the fat.
In any case, it is the most unhealthy and short-sighted method to lose weight. YOU WILL NOT LOOK GOOD.0 -
I think severe calorie deficit can work but the key is for the body to come to terms that nothing more is coming its way, for it to start eating up the fat stores. This is my guess and based on what I have read online. If the body feels something is coming in, it will wait and hold on to the fat.
In any case, it is the most unhealthy and short-sighted method to lose weight. YOU WILL NOT LOOK GOOD.
I don't think 1200 is too low (maybe if you are really burning up the cals working out), you know your body better better then any of us and if you don't feel hungry, shaky, or weak, then I don't see the harm. I've gone below 1200 for maybe a week but I was so out of it mentally and had absolutely no energy....that could not work for me, maybe it had something to do with me not being over weight thus having less available cals that were stored in my body...I don't know that's all speculation don't take my word for it!0 -
Lets think about it some more. mmmkay?
From bodybuilding forum, the body expends 8 calories to keep 1 pound of muscle and 2 calories to keep 1 pound of fat each day.
So when you start a regimen of severe calorie deficit, guess what the body will eliminate first? The muscle, which is more calorie intensive before it even gets to fat.
So a better strategy is to gain more muscle so that the body is burning more calories even when you are wasting time on MFP.0 -
Lets think about it some more. mmmkay?
From bodybuilding forum, the body expends 8 calories to keep 1 pound of muscle and 2 calories to keep 1 pound of fat each day.
So when you start a regimen of severe calorie deficit, guess what the body will eliminate first? The muscle, which is more calorie intensive before it even gets to fat.
So a better strategy is to gain more muscle so that the body is burning more calories even when you are wasting time on MFP.
All that statment proves is that muscle is more energy demanding then fat, it doesn't say a thing about where the needed calories are taken from first.
and no offense but my strong opinion on the matter is based moreso on personal experience, rather then forum articles...which brings me back to my question how am I gaining muscle mass while cutting with on a 1500 cal diet while working out 3-6 hrs a week? all while my waist is shrinking considerably and everyday I'm seeing more definition not just muscle volume?0 -
more visible muscles =/= muscle gained0
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^^I've heard that as well, but for instance I eat less then 1500 cals while I am cutting (currently am btw) and I still am able to achieve measurable and observable muscle gains while I loose the fat quite quickly...so I just don't see how that can happen given that logic?
*note* I do strength train regularly btw, in fact it's the focus of my workouts, so I can train my muscle as much as possible rather then just non stop cardio.
I have read several articles that state you can not gain muscle with a calorie deficit, is this not true?0 -
BUMP ... and I totally agree with OP.0
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Maybe this is a subject that you should discuss with your physician or maybe an endocrinologist who specializes in the endocrine system.That way any information you receive would be from someone qualified to give it. Good luck.
Lisa0 -
OP you will die if you eat below your BMR for an extended period of time, DEATH!!!
*kitten*, Alright I'm cracking a beer and pizza is in the oven...thanks bro you just saved my life!
mm.. beer and pizza! that's my kinda night! :drinker: haha0 -
^^I've heard that as well, but for instance I eat less then 1500 cals while I am cutting (currently am btw) and I still am able to achieve measurable and observable muscle gains while I loose the fat quite quickly...so I just don't see how that can happen given that logic?
*note* I do strength train regularly btw, in fact it's the focus of my workouts, so I can train my muscle as much as possible rather then just non stop cardio.
I have read several articles that state you can not gain muscle with a calorie deficit, is this not true?
It's possible if:
A) you are a beginner
you are previously trained (muscle memory)
C) you are on steroids
In the majority of cases, it is best to focus on fat loss (weight loss with preservation of LBM) or LBM gain. Both of these require resistance training. Hope that helps
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I have scientifically proven to you that when faced with severe calorie deprivation, the body will first eliminate muscle. Please read that comment again. Your body will burn muscle to keep fat because its easier for it to maintain fat. Its simple math.0
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I have scientifically proven to you that when faced with severe calorie deprivation, the body will first eliminate muscle. Please read that comment again. Your body will burn muscle to keep fat because its easier for it to maintain fat. Its simple math.
So I guess then If I start to diet ( wait I am), I will loose my physique and be left a blob on bones??? doesn't seem to add up bro....BTW I'm facing atleast 1000 cal deprivation on most days.....0 -
Lets make it simpler mmkayyy?
You have two cars - a huge nice SUV and a small tiny corolla.
You lose your job.
You now live on unemployment.
Which car will you sell off first, if you really need to keep a car for as long as possible.
Think abaat it.0 -
Just look at my diaries and then look at my pics and tell me your logic still makes sense...I'm not trying to be egotistical or arrogant, but I've been doing this for some time and my experience proves your wrong...just saying bro0
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I have scientifically proven to you that when faced with severe calorie deprivation, the body will first eliminate muscle. Please read that comment again. Your body will burn muscle to keep fat because its easier for it to maintain fat. Its simple math.
So I guess then If I start to diet ( wait I am), I will loose my physique and be left a blob on bones??? doesn't seem to add up bro....BTW I'm facing atleast 1000 cal deprivation on most days.....
You are a miracle child my friend.0 -
When i started losing weight i weighed in at 270. I starved myself and consumed nothing but water for 21 days and made it down to 240. I was thrilled n decided to try getting my body used to food again bc i felt like id die otherwise and after i ate 2 grapes it turned into fried pork chops and binging for 4 days. I was then depressed as i read the scale and seen i went up 10lbs. I then was 250 and ate 500 calories for quit sometime.then i got down to 195 and got pg. So i took a break from weight loss and enjoyed my pregnancy. Then after i had my son i was up to 217. I went back to a 500 calorie diet then that stopped working so is starved myself and went down to 170. I then gradually started eating.day one i ate 50 cals then day 2 100 calories then day 3 150 calories and so forth then once i was around 1000 cals for a week i started losing 2 lbs a week.so i was content and made it to 139 then i got discouraged bc i still wasnt skinny. So i started eating and got pg again n gained some weight then miscarried:( so i binged and now im 164 and praying i finish losing my weight this time0
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Lets make it simpler mmkayyy?
You have two cars - a huge nice SUV and a small tiny corolla.
You lose your job.
You now live on unemployment.
Which car will you sell off first, if you really need to keep a car for as long as possible.
Think abaat it.
I'd find a new job and keep em both...horrible analogy0 -
Lets make it simpler mmkayyy?
You have two cars - a huge nice SUV and a small tiny corolla.
You lose your job.
You now live on unemployment.
Which car will you sell off first, if you really need to keep a car for as long as possible.
Think abaat it.
I'd find a new job and keep em both...horrible analogy
dont hate!0 -
There are ways to achieve huge calorie deficits, losing body fat and preserving muscle -- most notably, protein sparing modified fasts (PSMF). It's not especially complicated. It involves eating lean protein sources, taking a multivitamin, and supplementing with magnesium, potassium, and sodium. It's relatively easy to do for those who have been on a ketogenic diet for a month or more.
Alternatively, there is intermittent fasting and alternate day fasting.
If we were as fragile as some would have you believe, the species would have been extinct after 1,000 years. In fact, the sort of things I mention above are being discussed by molecular biologists and biochemists as a likely way to extend human life.
You're right to be cynical about group think.0 -
Before I go any further I want to say this, I know eating a low calorie diet is mentally unhealthy to some individuals, particularly those who suffer from eating disorders, and I respect the opinion of those who struggle with them. I am just talking from the perspective of someone with out one who has a mentally sound grasp on their body and eating habits.
This is probably one of the most controversial subjects on this site. I personally think that if you eat to little the only way your body can compensate for that is by slowing your base* metabolic rate down a bit, but quite frankly think it is impossible for you body to just say screw you, I'm gonna take all the food you give me and store it as fat! I've played around with my food consumption and exercise enough to know my own body.
It's a scientific fact that when a person goes with out food the body first uses any available carbs in the system, then the fat reserve's, and finally it starts to break down its own muscle tissue (mainly from voluntary muscles) to supply the essential organ functions with energy to survive. So that goes to say that starvation mode, in the sense of muscle wasting, is only obtained by complete starvation and complete fat reservoir depletion, only then I would think, the body would start to use critical tissue to survive.
So please someone put this hype to rest and try to convince me of the contrary. I wanna know how having too big of a caloric deficit while still having an above "very lean" b/f% is somehow making people more fat? It just doesn't make sense to me at all?
This is the way I understand it from what I have read. There is something called, "sarcopenic obesity" where the body will consume its muscle mass (because of too few calories) and yet preserve its fat stores reasonably well. It happens mostly to old people but, it could really happen to anyone who has a poor appetite and is extremely sedentary. It simulates the situation of those who have been well fed in the past but suddenly experience prolonged hunger. Women, because of the influence of estrogen (which always "wants" to preserve fat stores) will often have the frustrating experience of losing muscle as they diet while a large proportion of their fat deposits stay stubbornly resistant to budging. That is why exercise is crucial for everyone who seeks to reduce body fat. But too much cardio (which is catabolic) without resistance training (which is anabolic) can have a tendency to tear down muscle as well--especially if the caloric deficit is too large. Muscle takes a lot of calories to maintain--fat not so much. When the person is under too much of a calorie deficit, the body "assumes" that food is scarce and goes into survival mode. The body then "makes the decision" to get rid of that which takes more calories to maintain (saving the less "expensive" fat to supply calories to internal organs as a survival mechanism). It will ultimately burn the fat reserves up too, in order to survive, but it will dip into the musculature for energy long before that point is reached--especially if the person is not working the muscles.0 -
Before I go any further I want to say this, I know eating a low calorie diet is mentally unhealthy to some individuals, particularly those who suffer from eating disorders, and I respect the opinion of those who struggle with them. I am just talking from the perspective of someone with out one who has a mentally sound grasp on their body and eating habits.
This is probably one of the most controversial subjects on this site. I personally think that if you eat to little the only way your body can compensate for that is by slowing your base* metabolic rate down a bit, but quite frankly think it is impossible for you body to just say screw you, I'm gonna take all the food you give me and store it as fat! I've played around with my food consumption and exercise enough to know my own body.
It's a scientific fact that when a person goes with out food the body first uses any available carbs in the system, then the fat reserve's, and finally it starts to break down its own muscle tissue (mainly from voluntary muscles) to supply the essential organ functions with energy to survive. So that goes to say that starvation mode, in the sense of muscle wasting, is only obtained by complete starvation and complete fat reservoir depletion, only then I would think, the body would start to use critical tissue to survive.
So please someone put this hype to rest and try to convince me of the contrary. I wanna know how having too big of a caloric deficit while still having an above "very lean" b/f% is somehow making people more fat? It just doesn't make sense to me at all?
It’s simple.. Do what works for your body. Some may benefit from your way, others another way.
Everyone’s body is different when it comes to gains regarding cutting and bulking or just remaining lean. A low calorie diet will most definitely allow you to drop a few pounds.
Examples
Your TDE = 2000kcal
You cut 500kcal. TDE = 1500kcal
Your calorie reduction is fine for fat loss. Immediate reduction from 2k to 1500 will only benefit you for so long, you’ll always have to re-adjust your diet/TDE. I’d suggest slow calorie reduction based on personal experience. But yet again, I re-emphasise the fact that it all depends on your ‘own’ body.
If you aren’t losing strength gains via weight training, then you’re good. Otherwise, more than 500 calories = skinny fat bound.
Cals in v Cals out + moderation diet for your goals + weight training = Success. Time consumption of the calories aren’t important, as long as you get it in within the day/before 12pm
Hope that helps OP. I’m no expert at my age, but I’ll still attempt to contribute regarding my personal achievements & goals.
My TDE = 2100. I cut on p/f/c 35/25/40 - Cals 2700 ish - Genetic freak? :laugh: #truestorybro0 -
The reason you are retaining a good amount of muscle mass despite being in quite a large calorie deficit is because you are strength training and getting adequate protein.
I'd say you are a little low on fats overall and definitely low on fruit & vegetable intake. That is mainly related to overall health not fat loss and LBM preservation though.
With the amount of carbs you are consuming and your current BF% (in pic) I would be implementing some refeeds from time to time. (Take a look at www.bodyrecomposition.com for some good articles on that) Not only does it let your body know that you aren't dying but will also help a LOT with gym performance.0
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