Dancer bodies?
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Intern that will also contract the tricep muscle, so anyone with good muscle mass would accentuate the visual look of the long head of the tricep when retract the biceps.
Defies human physiology if one can lengthen muscle from stretching. Stretching is for flexibility purposes. If your muscles are anchored already from one end of a bone (via a tendon) to another, how do you "de anchor" it from stretching?dancers are using their own body weight and do a ton of stretching which will lengthen
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To clarify, I am not talking about lengthening the muscle by moving the anchor points. I agree that would be impossible unless by unfortunate accident.
I am talking about maximising the potential range of the muscle between those anchor points. Many people and especially lifters who do not stretch regularly have a lesser range of movement compared to a dancer, yogi, acrobat etc and the visual appearance can be that the stretched muscle is longer more sleek simply because as you extend a muscle it becomes narrower at the midpoint - for example opening up your arm will extend and narrow the bicep, contracting will thicken the bicep.
And agreed about body weight. Since the weight isn't progressive resistance (unless there's some difference in leverage) repetition of lifting the same resistance over time will build muscle endurance and strength for that particular resistance.The photos that are being uploaded to illustrate long muscles in dancers are pretty much all pictures showing extreme flexibility so of course the muscles will look longer comared to the lifter photos where the muscles are being deliberately contracted to maximise the appearance of increased muscle mass.
A body can appear to be both, depending on whether the body is contracted or stretched.
Also, dancers, yogis, gymnasts tend to work with bodyweight rather than extrenal weights. This increases muscle strength without adding muscle mass to a point; a smaller muscle looks relatively longer as has been agreed.
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Body fat plays a role too. Here are 2 pics of the same girl depicting a more "muscular" look and her "softer" look.
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Body fat does play a part. When I first joined I thought that when people said that, they were saying that dancers were fat. LOL. I understand now.0
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Actually, to all those stating that muscles don't get longer - this might be incorrect.
Muscle extensibility varies both dynamically while tensing and over time with stretching, maybe. Here is an article that covers current theory while cautiously suggesting that greater flexibility is just sensation.
http://ptjournal.apta.org/content/90/3/438.full#content-block
Food for thought, careful about absolute positions.
First of all, stretching does not increase how long a muscle looks. That doesn't make any sense.
Furthermore, the article you linked to says that, contrary to the traditional view that increased muscle flexibility is a result of small changes in physical length combined with sensitivity, new evidence suggests that there's no increase in length at all!
If you look at the biomechanics, the "length" of the muscle would only be increasing a very small amount, on the order of about half a centimeter or so for something like a biceps going from "normal" to "very flexible." It has nothing to do with the appearance of the muscle.
Small, thin muscles look elongated. Large muscles look bulky. That's just how it works.
A combination of modest musculature with low but not super low body fat gives you the soft, long, lean look. A combination of significant muscle and very low body fat gives you the bulky, muscular look.
For an individual it's all a function of muscle size and body fat. When comparing different people, genetics play a huge role as well. Comparing professionals in one area versus professionals in another gives you an extremely skilled look because in general people who are actual pros are genetically predisposed to a certain look or function, especially in something as image-centric as ballet.
The article I linked supports one theory but also presents the background of the competing theories. It's not so clear cut. But other than that, I somewhat agree with what you are saying. The muscle lengthening will have, if any, a minor role in presentation.
"Genetics" is such a catch- all phrase where in reality childhood nutritional and regimental environment have so much impact on hormonal function, height, limb length as to be highly significant. It's not genetic predisposition but professional selection in ballet.
Meet Ragen, professional dancer not selected for the thread
And just because I like modern dance...
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A little story for a little context:
http://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/16/arts/eating-disorders-haunt-ballerinas.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
An example of the attitudes supporting systemic disordered eating/body image in dance:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/04/arts/dance/04ballet.html0 -
Meet Ragen, professional dancer not selected for the thread
Ragen's aesthetic completely to one side- what the crap is happening with her right knee and hips? That is really bad, like damaging, like arthritis is gonna happen in ten years turnout..
mind you I guess every dancer is going to get arthritis probably, but her right foot is on the verge of pronating, her knee is twisted, looks like unbalanced hypermobility0 -
Actually, to all those stating that muscles don't get longer - this might be incorrect.
Muscle extensibility varies both dynamically while tensing and over time with stretching, maybe. Here is an article that covers current theory while cautiously suggesting that greater flexibility is just sensation.
http://ptjournal.apta.org/content/90/3/438.full#content-block
Food for thought, careful about absolute positions.
First of all, stretching does not increase how long a muscle looks. That doesn't make any sense.
Furthermore, the article you linked to says that, contrary to the traditional view that increased muscle flexibility is a result of small changes in physical length combined with sensitivity, new evidence suggests that there's no increase in length at all!
If you look at the biomechanics, the "length" of the muscle would only be increasing a very small amount, on the order of about half a centimeter or so for something like a biceps going from "normal" to "very flexible." It has nothing to do with the appearance of the muscle.
Small, thin muscles look elongated. Large muscles look bulky. That's just how it works.
A combination of modest musculature with low but not super low body fat gives you the soft, long, lean look. A combination of significant muscle and very low body fat gives you the bulky, muscular look.
For an individual it's all a function of muscle size and body fat. When comparing different people, genetics play a huge role as well. Comparing professionals in one area versus professionals in another gives you an extremely skilled look because in general people who are actual pros are genetically predisposed to a certain look or function, especially in something as image-centric as ballet.
With respect, how do you account for people coming along to a yoga or stretching class who can barely get their fingers past their knees and slowly over time stretch the hamstrings to the point where they can stand on their hands with the legs straight - must be a lengthening of something up to three or so inches.
This lengthening isn't to do with de-anchoring the muscle from it's tendon fixings, it is to do with unlocking the potential within the entire length of the muscle through relaxation and traction over time against tension to keep the muscle stable while it is being stretched.
At first the muscle is relatively short and joint between the bones is unable to open up to it's widest possible angle. After developing flexibility, the joint is able to reach a wider angle because the muscle limiting the maximum joint angle is longer.
If it is longer - it's going to look longer.
Anyhow - I'm outta here as this is doin' my 'ead in!
Respect to you all, whatever your viewpoints. :flowerforyou:0 -
Meet Ragen, professional dancer not selected for the thread
Ragen's aesthetic completely to one side- what the crap is happening with her right knee and hips? That is really bad, like damaging, like arthritis is gonna happen in ten years turnout..
mind you I guess every dancer is going to get arthritis probably, but her right foot is on the verge of pronating, her knee is twisted, looks like unbalanced hypermobility
Oh, look nothing like a little jibe of criticism. /smh0 -
Yep, tiquando and dancer people will all suffer terrible deaths....</sarcasm>Meet Ragen, professional dancer not selected for the thread
Ragen's aesthetic completely to one side- what the crap is happening with her right knee and hips? That is really bad, like damaging, like arthritis is gonna happen in ten years turnout..
mind you I guess every dancer is going to get arthritis probably, but her right foot is on the verge of pronating, her knee is twisted, looks like unbalanced hypermobility
Oh, look nothing like a little jibe of criticism. /smh
I was actually diagnosed with arthritis when I was 8. I was promptly enrolled in dance and it got "leaps" and bounds better after dancing. I use to cry in pain every night. I still have arthritis...but whenever I get a spout of it I usually do dance/yoga. It also helps me hide:
And walk on roofs and floors at the same time:
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Ragen's aesthetic completely to one side- what the crap is happening with her right knee and hips? That is really bad, like damaging, like arthritis is gonna happen in ten years turnout..
mind you I guess every dancer is going to get arthritis probably, but her right foot is on the verge of pronating, her knee is twisted, looks like unbalanced hypermobility
Oh, look nothing like a little jibe of criticism. /smh
Sorry I sidestepped your point. My comment had nothing to do with her appearance, that just looks straight up dangerous. I love dance, and hate injury. I do not enjoy looking at dancers who look like they're hurting themselves. Which is one reason I rarely watch ballet, and prefer contemporary stuff - I love seeing a variety of human figures in powerful, graceful (or expressive or evocative, but ultimately non-injurious) motion0 -
Dancing for decades and haven't hurt myself once doing it...Well, except that time I did a scissor kick and landed my weight on my hand instead of my 2 feet and broke a bone in 3 places...No stretch related problems though :happy:I love dance, and hate injury. I do not enjoy looking at dancers who look like they're hurting themselves.0 -
Body fat plays a role too. Here are 2 pics of the same girl depicting a more "muscular" look and her "softer" look.
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Is it me or does the bottom picture look airbrushed? Even her brow and facial wrinkles have been softened as compared to the above. Her face is near perfect smooth.
Her waist even appears to be smaller but that could be the camera angle.0 -
Dancing for decades and haven't hurt myself once doing it...Well, except that time I did a scissor kick and landed my weight on my hand instead of my 2 feet and broke a bone in 3 places...No stretch related problems though :happy:I love dance, and hate injury. I do not enjoy looking at dancers who look like they're hurting themselves.
That's cool, but it's kind of like an occupational hazard for most people who use their bodies professionally, I think (repeated impact, overuse etc --> micro trauma over time often precipitates arthritis; sure not EVERY dancer will have arthritis)
that said yeah no reason to rush into it that i can see (talking about the other dancer above, not nec you)0 -
Dancing for decades and haven't hurt myself once doing it...Well, except that time I did a scissor kick and landed my weight on my hand instead of my 2 feet and broke a bone in 3 places...No stretch related problems though :happy:I love dance, and hate injury. I do not enjoy looking at dancers who look like they're hurting themselves.
That's cool, but it's kind of like an occupational hazard for most people who use their bodies professionally, I think (repeated impact, overuse etc --> micro trauma over time often precipitates arthritis)
that said yeah no reason to rush into it that i can see (talking about the other dancer above, not nec you)
That's weird, I danced about 9 times a week for years and years, did many performances every year and only got better over time. Anyone who was around me before I started dancing saw me go from crying in pain to nothing when I started dance. My grandfather has arthritis rather bad, he even had limbs replaced from it. The doctor gave him a sheet of stretches similar to the ones I did in dance. Apparently stretching like that is a great idea for arthritis. I'd highly recommend rushing into dance if you have arthritis. You just can't expect to push yourself past the point of no return. I can do the stuff in the pictures above no problem without warming up or stretching without feeling a twinge of pushing myself or pain. I wouldn't expect say a regular person like you to do it. Pretty positive you'd throw something out.
I've been around classes for years and years with dance teachers sitting on the backs of girls to get into the position I'm in in the motorcycle gear pic. Sounds painful but nobody gets pushed into back lurching pain, and I've never seen anyone hurt from it.0 -
Dancing for decades and haven't hurt myself once doing it...Well, except that time I did a scissor kick and landed my weight on my hand instead of my 2 feet and broke a bone in 3 places...No stretch related problems though :happy:I love dance, and hate injury. I do not enjoy looking at dancers who look like they're hurting themselves.
That's cool, but it's kind of like an occupational hazard for most people who use their bodies professionally, I think (repeated impact, overuse etc --> micro trauma over time often precipitates arthritis)
that said yeah no reason to rush into it that i can see (talking about the other dancer above, not nec you)
That's weird, I danced about 9 times a week for years and years, did many performances every year and only got better over time. Anyone who was around me before I started dancing saw me go from crying in pain to nothing when I started dance. My grandfather has arthritis rather bad, he even had limbs replaced from it. The doctor gave him a sheet of stretches similar to the ones I did in dance. Apparently stretching like that is a great idea for arthritis. I'd highly recommend rushing into dance if you have arthritis. You just can't expect to push yourself past the point of no return. I can do the stuff in the pictures above no problem without warming up or stretching without feeling a twinge of pushing myself or pain. I wouldn't expect say a regular person like you to do it. Pretty positive you'd throw something out.
Me personally? Yeah I'm ****ed. But I did dance for years (from age 3 to teens), and I happen to be able to kick my legs to my head, because I have hypermobility in my hips. Which I do not test, these days, because I'm ****ed.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1835975/
http://rheumatology.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2009/07/09/rheumatology.kep175.full
more info on prevalence easily googlable
edit: I am not blaming dance for my personal issues (i actually think i hurt myself running, and i was nowhere near a professional level).
But it's pretty obvious that any athlete exposes her/himself to ^ risk. Hopefully s/he can anticipate and manage that in a smart way, while offering the rest of us the gift of her/his art.
ok done with this, please continue original discussion0 -
Body fat plays a role too. Here are 2 pics of the same girl depicting a more "muscular" look and her "softer" look.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Is it me or does the bottom picture look airbrushed? Even her brow and facial wrinkles have been softened as compared to the above. Her face is near perfect smooth.
Her waist even appears to be smaller but that could be the camera angle.
It's a professional glamor shot. Airbrushing is part of the package0 -
You're all forgetting things like genetics, the neck shaft angle of the proximal femur and so on?0
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You're all forgetting things like genetics, the neck shaft angle of the proximal femur and so on?
Actually a lot of people mentioned genetics in the thread...it kind of diverged from that though.0 -
You're all forgetting things like genetics, the neck shaft angle of the proximal femur and so on?
Actually a lot of people mentioned genetics in the thread...it kind of diverged from that though.
It always does here, btw, your back looks great sara!0 -
You're all forgetting things like genetics, the neck shaft angle of the proximal femur and so on?
Actually a lot of people mentioned genetics in the thread...it kind of diverged from that though.
It always does here, btw, your back looks great sara!
Lol - you got that right! And thank you. :flowerforyou:0 -
Well, I think there are lots of reasons, and agree with a lot of what has been said.
Genetics is one factor
Not training arms is another factor for a lot of ballet dancers (but still having a strong back and lower body)
Having 17-19% bodyfat instead of 15% bodyfat. Being lean, but not ultra lean.
Dancers are healthy and strong, but they also maintain a lower weight for the look of the dancing and lifts (this does not mean anorexic, they must eat a lot actually, but they use the calories from all the dancing).
The lifter in the OP photos also has breast implants (this is not a judgement, just another factor in how they look different from one another, since this is the topic of the OP).
There are other factors as well.
I don't think the lifter's arms look like chunky muscles. And she has obviously worked hard with bulking/cutting and lifting to develop them like that.
But, the thing people are saying about stretching the muscles making them look a certain way is not true. Flexibility is also something that is great to train in, but it doesn't influence how the body looks (other than the ability to move in a wider variety of ways and still be graceful doing it). However lifting weights does not reduce flexibility. It increases it. Stronger muscles are more resilient to improvements in flexibility.
I'm probably forgetting a point.0 -
Body fat plays a role too. Here are 2 pics of the same girl depicting a more "muscular" look and her "softer" look.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Is it me or does the bottom picture look airbrushed? Even her brow and facial wrinkles have been softened as compared to the above. Her face is near perfect smooth.
Her waist even appears to be smaller but that could be the camera angle.
As a professional photographer, I am telling you its airbrushed/photoshopped in some way.0 -
Meet Ragen, professional dancer not selected for the thread
Ragen's aesthetic completely to one side- what the crap is happening with her right knee and hips? That is really bad, like damaging, like arthritis is gonna happen in ten years turnout..
mind you I guess every dancer is going to get arthritis probably, but her right foot is on the verge of pronating, her knee is twisted, looks like unbalanced hypermobility
Her foot, knee and hip are fine. She is in proper form. This is the exact way her feet etc should be angled for "positions" in dance.0 -
Body fat plays a role too. Here are 2 pics of the same girl depicting a more "muscular" look and her "softer" look.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Is it me or does the bottom picture look airbrushed? Even her brow and facial wrinkles have been softened as compared to the above. Her face is near perfect smooth.
Her waist even appears to be smaller but that could be the camera angle.
Probably a little touched up but also the bottom pic was obviously a planned photoshoot with specific lighting, etc. The top is a candid from a competition with lights designed to make ever change in texture (muscles) more pronounced.0 -
Meet Ragen, professional dancer not selected for the thread
Ragen's aesthetic completely to one side- what the crap is happening with her right knee and hips? That is really bad, like damaging, like arthritis is gonna happen in ten years turnout..
mind you I guess every dancer is going to get arthritis probably, but her right foot is on the verge of pronating, her knee is twisted, looks like unbalanced hypermobility
Her foot, knee and hip are fine. She is in proper form. This is the exact way her feet etc should be angled for "positions" in dance.
Well ok, I’m not an expert, it’s been a LONG time, and I guess it’s hard to see exactly what’s going on, given her outfit. But to me it looks like her rotation is happening very much at the knee, with insufficient turnout at the right (standing) hip, and then looks like some compensatory rotation at the torso. The way I was taught (again I’m not an expert; am recalling what I learned of the Vaganova method many years ago, and I gather there are a number of views on turnout) stressed turning out at the hips, knees and ankles equally. Basically it all just screamed ‘wrong’ to me, but I admit I’m no authority. I’d be interested to hear what dancers here think, if another diversion would be tolerated.0 -
Given that Ragen IS a professional dancer, and you apparently are not, my vote just might go to her. Or do you not trust her, since she is .... "gasp, fat" (her words)?
Ragen's aesthetic completely to one side- what the crap is happening with her right knee and hips? That is really bad, like damaging, like arthritis is gonna happen in ten years turnout..
mind you I guess every dancer is going to get arthritis probably, but her right foot is on the verge of pronating, her knee is twisted, looks like unbalanced hypermobility
Her foot, knee and hip are fine. She is in proper form. This is the exact way her feet etc should be angled for "positions" in dance.
Well ok, I’m not an expert, it’s been a LONG time, and I guess it’s hard to see exactly what’s going on, given her outfit. But to me it looks like her rotation is happening very much at the knee, with insufficient turnout at the right (standing) hip, and then looks like some compensatory rotation at the torso. The way I was taught (again I’m not an expert; am recalling what I learned of the Vaganova method many years ago, and I gather there are a number of views on turnout) stressed turning out at the hips, knees and ankles equally. Basically it all just screamed ‘wrong’ to me, but I admit I’m no authority. I’d be interested to hear what dancers here think, if another diversion would be tolerated.0 -
Given that Ragen IS a professional dancer, and you apparently are not, my vote just might go to her. Or do you not trust her, since she is .... "gasp, fat" (her words)?
Ragen's aesthetic completely to one side- what the crap is happening with her right knee and hips? That is really bad, like damaging, like arthritis is gonna happen in ten years turnout..
mind you I guess every dancer is going to get arthritis probably, but her right foot is on the verge of pronating, her knee is twisted, looks like unbalanced hypermobility
Her foot, knee and hip are fine. She is in proper form. This is the exact way her feet etc should be angled for "positions" in dance.
Well ok, I’m not an expert, it’s been a LONG time, and I guess it’s hard to see exactly what’s going on, given her outfit. But to me it looks like her rotation is happening very much at the knee, with insufficient turnout at the right (standing) hip, and then looks like some compensatory rotation at the torso. The way I was taught (again I’m not an expert; am recalling what I learned of the Vaganova method many years ago, and I gather there are a number of views on turnout) stressed turning out at the hips, knees and ankles equally. Basically it all just screamed ‘wrong’ to me, but I admit I’m no authority. I’d be interested to hear what dancers here think, if another diversion would be tolerated.
I think I explained my response.
I'm not aware of any fat-phobia lurking in my psyche. I myself have been "gasp, fat". I am, however, injury-phobic.0 -
If you want to see some muscular dancers, google image search Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater.0
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