Assistance lifts - good or bad??

wareagle8706

A typically spilt routine i generally like is Chest, Shoulders, Tri's on day, Back and biceps one day, and legs on their own. This seems to be a pretty well rounded routine. And I'm not huge into classifying any lift other than "compound" lifts as "assistance." I just call them exercises or moves. I think they're all important in their own right (for the most part).

Yeah I put together what I think is a reasonable split routine like you mentioned. I used the word assistance b/c that's what the author refers to them as in SS. I too think they're important, and am wondering if I'm doing myself a disservice by not incorporating more lifts into my routine besides the 5 compounds he suggests.

I personally feel as though you can gain a lot by doing more than just the main 5 compound lifts. That's how I've lifted my entire life and I love it. It's also very simple to complete a split routine incorporating compound as well as other movements into a timeframe of about 45 minutes to an hour so I see no reason for not doing it since that is a little bit of time for a lot of gain.

Sarauk2sf

When you get down to a low body fat percentage and you start to worry about making certain muscles "pop" or are finalizing your definition, then worry about assistance lifts.

That would be isolation, not assistance.


If you have weak spots during your "big" lifts, then add in assistance lifts as necessary. For instance, if your hamstrings and/or glutes are weak during your squats, add ham-glute raises to shore up those weak spots. If you find yourself having trouble with your triceps during bench press, add some triceps dips.

If everything is running along smoothly, don't worry - for the time being - about assistance exercises.

However, if you really insist on doing some - work on pull-ups or chin-ups. Those will work your biceps very well. If you can't do pulls or chins, then you can do lat pull-downs until you build the strength to do pulls and/or chins.

I apologize, I think I'm using the wrong terminology and that may be confusing people. At this point I agree I don't need assistance lifts. I'm doing fine with the compounds so I won't waste my time/energy on the. However, I do think I might benefit from some isolation exercises in addition to the 5 compounds. In particular, biceps and calves seem to be underrepresented in SS. I also think I could use more abs. So... thoughts on that?

Squats will hit calves and bench (and OHP) will hit biceps to a degree. However, if you want more definition or more focus on biceps, there is nothing wrong with adding some iso work in, just be sensible and not add too much as it will impact recovery. Add them to the end of the workout.

ETA: chins are a good add.

actually, bench hits chest and triceps... the wider your grip- the more chest. the shorter your grip- more tri's. Also you could be hitting a little shoulders, especially on an incline

I said to a degree. I probably should have been clearer and said 'small" degree. You have some engagement - just not a lot.

whiskeysister510

That's great that you're doing SS! The idea behind sticking to the big lifts in SS is to just practice! It’s set up to get you familiar with the lifts, so that you focus on form and don’t over-complicate it with assistance lifts. I think this is a simple and straight forward approach and is a great way to learn—practice makes perfect. But once you become more advanced, assistance lifts can really help you make you progress (i.e. adding weight to the big lifts). You might find one of your lifts is lagging behind (for me it's back and forth between DLs and bench), so maybe you want to focus your assistance work on increasing strength for a specific lift. Or maybe you just want some more variety in your workout (I would find it too boring to only do big lifts, but some people prefer it). So to answer simply—assistance lifts are good, but as a beginner, focusing your efforts on learning the big lifts is a great way to go.

contingencyplan

The term you're looking for is accessory lifts, not assistance lifts.

Here is the bottom line: Regardless of your goals, until you reach an intermediate to advanced level with your lifting, you won't see much benefit at all from the "accessory lifts." Doing a program that has you training 3 days a week focusing exclusively on compound lifts will take you farther toward your goals--whatever they may be--until you reach a far more advanced level than you are currently at. Because it is how you build the strength needed to carry you through more advanced programs that involve splits, or placing a greater emphasis on accessory lifts. And even then, whether or not you need to depends entirely on your goals. Working in splits has its benefits for more intermediate to advanced users, but, to be honest, the way the knowledge has filtered down to beginners who think they're doing themselves favors by doing it as opposed to compounds is just silly as it served virtually no purpose.

Lupercalia

I think you said you've been lifting two weeks?

Since you're very new to lifting (or perhaps just starting back if you were a lifter before), it seems like sticking with a solid compound lifting program would be your best bet. If you don't like Starting Strength for some reason, look at Stronglifts 5x5 (very similar, however). New Rules of Lifting for Women adds a bunch of other lifts, and a lot of women seem to like that program. Maybe you should look into it. But honestly, staying with something very straightforward in the beginning isn't bad advice, nor is the advice just a bunch of people who are SS or SL fanboys/girls going on about their favourite program. There are reasons the compound lifting programs are viewed as "holy grails". They work your whole body, teach you how to lift, and are not cluttered with a bunch of stuff you don't need as a newbie lifter.

ChocoCheeseaholic

I think you said you've been lifting two weeks?

Since you're very new to lifting (or perhaps just starting back if you were a lifter before), it seems like sticking with a solid compound lifting program would be your best bet. If you don't like Starting Strength for some reason, look at Stronglifts 5x5 (very similar, however). New Rules of Lifting for Women adds a bunch of other lifts, and a lot of women seem to like that program. Maybe you should look into it. But honestly, staying with something very straightforward in the beginning isn't bad advice, nor is the advice just a bunch of people who are SS or SL fanboys/girls going on about their favourite program. There are reasons the compound lifting programs are viewed as "holy grails". They work your whole body, teach you how to lift, and are not cluttered with a bunch of stuff you don't need as a newbie lifter.

I have been lifting for longer, started SS two weeks ago.

ChocoCheeseaholic

A typically spilt routine i generally like is Chest, Shoulders, Tri's on day, Back and biceps one day, and legs on their own. This seems to be a pretty well rounded routine. And I'm not huge into classifying any lift other than "compound" lifts as "assistance." I just call them exercises or moves. I think they're all important in their own right (for the most part).

Yeah I put together what I think is a reasonable split routine like you mentioned. I used the word assistance b/c that's what the author refers to them as in SS. I too think they're important, and am wondering if I'm doing myself a disservice by not incorporating more lifts into my routine besides the 5 compounds he suggests.

I personally feel as though you can gain a lot by doing more than just the main 5 compound lifts. That's how I've lifted my entire life and I love it. It's also very simple to complete a split routine incorporating compound as well as other movements into a timeframe of about 45 minutes to an hour so I see no reason for not doing it since that is a little bit of time for a lot of gain.

My conclusion after reading the replies is that there are really two different groups of people on here, which is fine. I can see the benefits to sticking with the compound lifts, and why people choose to do so. But it's not for me. Like you, I think there's benefit to incorporating accessory/isolation lifts and making a program that covers it all. Thanks for validating this.

DavPul

well, this went well

Lupercalia

well, this went well

HAHA. Surprised?

haroon_awan

My conclusion after reading the replies is that there are really two different groups of people on here, which is fine. I can see the benefits to sticking with the compound lifts, and why people choose to do so. But it's not for me. Like you, I think there's benefit to incorporating accessory/isolation lifts and making a program that covers it all. Thanks for validating this.

I think the majority of people did not validate it...

lilawolf

I'm doing something similar with StrongLifts. I couldn't feel the biceps or calves either, and posted a similar question. A very beautiful young lady showed me a picture of her awesome calves that she got ONLY using SL. Also, once my overhead press got to 45 lbs I started feeling my biceps. My guess is that when the weight is lighter, your big muscles (shoulders, chest etc) handle it, but as you progress the smaller muscles have to pitch in as the large muscles fatigue. Here is what I posted so that you can see the awesome calves:

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/931832-what-do-you-add-to-sl

contingencyplan

The bottom line is this: Regardless of your goals you are better off sticking to the big compound lifts exclusively until you feel ready to tackle a program aimed more at advanced lifters. Whether you want to build strength, burn fat, add muscle, or whatever, you WILL see better results focusing on compounds 3x a week. Working in splits with a heavy emphasis on accessory lifts (they're called accessory lifts for a reason) will yield relatively little as a beginner. There's a reason all the lifting programs aimed at beginning users have you working mainly on the compounds 3x a week. You can switch to something that has you working in a split, but there's absolutely no point to it at all until you reach the level needed to tackle these more advanced programs? Are you ready for them? If so, great. But don't try to put your own together. The fact that you're asking this question says you don't know enough to.

The question here is this: WHY do you think you would get more out of a program that has you working in splits and placing heavy emphasis on accessory lifts?

CarlKRobbo

TBH if it's only 2 weeks, stick to it as prescribed for now, at least a few months.

Have you considered that at this point your biceps\Calves are already strong enough for what your doing? Give it a bit more time then if you still not feeling it.

If your going to add anything, Pullups\Chins will hit the biceps, Plus, htey'll have a great carry over to Deadlifts, and even Bench Press although to a lesser effect.

Calves are a nightmare, they respond to different things for different people, in my case I have to hit 100 reps each time i train them directly.

jhc7324

The bottom line is this: Regardless of your goals you are better off sticking to the big compound lifts exclusively until you feel ready to tackle a program aimed more at advanced lifters. Whether you want to build strength, burn fat, add muscle, or whatever, you WILL see better results focusing on compounds 3x a week. Working in splits with a heavy emphasis on accessory lifts (they're called accessory lifts for a reason) will yield relatively little as a beginner. There's a reason all the lifting programs aimed at beginning users have you working mainly on the compounds 3x a week. You can switch to something that has you working in a split, but there's absolutely no point to it at all until you reach the level needed to tackle these more advanced programs? Are you ready for them? If so, great. But don't try to put your own together. The fact that you're asking this question says you don't know enough to.

The question here is this: WHY do you think you would get more out of a program that has you working in splits and placing heavy emphasis on accessory lifts?

I'm in a similar position to the OP. I'm at my goal weight, I've been doing Starting Strength (practical programing version) for a couple months now, and have started doing some accessory lifts at the end of my workout.

In my case, I'm lifting as heavy as I can, not necessarily "following the program" (not eating 4000 calories/day so my gains are slower buy the changes in my body have been very noticeable so far) and increasing my strength, but even going as heavy as I can, my workout takes ~ 35-40 minutes tops and when I'm done I feel like I want to do more. Given the choice between hopping on a treadmill for a half hour or lifting some more, I'll lift. I've been adding one of Rippetoe's noted accessory lifts at the end of my workout.

Following a 3x/week schedule, I do weighted dips on wednesday, barbell curls on friday, and bent over rows on sunday, and on occasion I throw in something else (maybe something for the abs if I have time).

I don't think that small amount of extra accessory work is hurting my recovery any...

Leadfoot_Lewis

My conclusion after reading the replies is that there are really two different groups of people on here, which is fine. I can see the benefits to sticking with the compound lifts, and why people choose to do so. But it's not for me. Like you, I think there's benefit to incorporating accessory/isolation lifts and making a program that covers it all. Thanks for validating this.

Agreed.

As long as the majority of your program is compound lifts, I see absolutely nothing wrong with incorporating isolation lifts into one's lifting program.

It just seems like around here if you do compound lifts then you're anti-isolation lifts, oh, and definitely anti-cardio! A balance of all of this is what makes an adequate fitness program.

cwolfman13

I'm on week 2 of Starting Strength and the author is big on just keeping it to the 5 compound lifts (squat, deadlift, press, bench press, power clean). He does given some assistance lifts but recommends sticking to the compounds for quite a while. I get that compound lifts are the shiznizzle and have no intention of stopping those. But the target audience for this book is 18-30 y/o males who he expects to eat 3500+ calories - not me. The book is a great starting point but I'm wondering how to make a bit more well-rounded of a workout. Biceps and calves in particular seem under represented.

So - thoughts? Should I split into more traditional days of chest & tris, back & glutes, biceps & shoulders? Anyone have a routine they really like?

It really depends on your goals. Starting Strength is an excellent program for people who are new to weight lifting and need to build a good strength foundation. Even at a deficit, you can make excellent strength gains.

You wouldn't know it from pretty much anything you read on this site, but, while SS and SL and other such programs are really great, they are not the be all end all and they are not forever. Once you get a good foundation of strength, you're going to have to move on to bigger and better things anyway. There are any number of ways to go after starting strength...i.e. power lifting, body building, etc. That said, those compound lifts should pretty much always anchor your workouts.

I did SS for awhile, and have moved on to more body composition type of lifting, but those compound lifts are still the central focus of my routine...but I do quite a bit of accessory work as well now and I do 3x8 rather than 3x5 at this point...though I still do 1x5 heavy for my deadlifts and 3x5 heavy for my squats.

contingencyplan

The bottom line is this: Regardless of your goals you are better off sticking to the big compound lifts exclusively until you feel ready to tackle a program aimed more at advanced lifters. Whether you want to build strength, burn fat, add muscle, or whatever, you WILL see better results focusing on compounds 3x a week. Working in splits with a heavy emphasis on accessory lifts (they're called accessory lifts for a reason) will yield relatively little as a beginner. There's a reason all the lifting programs aimed at beginning users have you working mainly on the compounds 3x a week. You can switch to something that has you working in a split, but there's absolutely no point to it at all until you reach the level needed to tackle these more advanced programs? Are you ready for them? If so, great. But don't try to put your own together. The fact that you're asking this question says you don't know enough to.

The question here is this: WHY do you think you would get more out of a program that has you working in splits and placing heavy emphasis on accessory lifts?

I'm in a similar position to the OP. I'm at my goal weight, I've been doing Starting Strength (practical programing version) for a couple months now, and have started doing some accessory lifts at the end of my workout.

In my case, I'm lifting as heavy as I can, not necessarily "following the program" (not eating 4000 calories/day so my gains are slower buy the changes in my body have been very noticeable so far) and increasing my strength, but even going as heavy as I can, my workout takes ~ 35-40 minutes tops and when I'm done I feel like I want to do more. Given the choice between hopping on a treadmill for a half hour or lifting some more, I'll lift. I've been adding one of Rippetoe's noted accessory lifts at the end of my workout.

Following a 3x/week schedule, I do weighted dips on wednesday, barbell curls on friday, and bent over rows on sunday, and on occasion I throw in something else (maybe something for the abs if I have time).

I don't think that small amount of extra accessory work is hurting my recovery any...

Never said adding accessory lifts in was bad. However the OP implied (did not exactly state, but implied) that she wanted to, instead, go to a split format (that's what I got from it anyway) and until you've reached a more intermediate to advanced level, you simply won't get NEARLY as much out of a split workout as you would a compound-based full body 3x/week one, regardless of your goals.