A Question for all the Low Carb Haters
Replies
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Your brain, which is responsible for more than just your thought processes (regulating heart beat, breathing, hormones, etc.) runs off of glucose. Where do you get glucose? From carbs. Sure your body can go through complex processes to get glucose from protein and fat but when it comes to my brain, I like to get what it needs without too much difficulty so that I can continue to go about my business (I'm a student, brain function is important to me).
This is simply not true... Carbohydrates are not required in a healthy human diet or put another way there is no such thing as an 'Essential Carbohydrate'. A lot of nutritionists will say that you require 120g to 130g of carbs in a healthy diet to maintain simply because they confuse what our brains get in a carbohydrate rich diet versus what they will get in a low carb diet. The fact is if there are no carbs in your diet the brain and central nervous system will run off molecules called 'ketones' which are synthesised in the liver from the fat we eat and also from the fatty acids mobilised from the fat tissue. With no carbs 'Ketones' will make up around 75% of the energy our brains use and the rest of the energy will come from glycerol, which is being released from the fat tissue when triglycerides are broken down and from glucose synthesised in the liver from the amino acids in protein. So a diet low in carbohydrates and high in protein and healthy fat will provide plenty of fuel for the brain.
Also, forgot to mention that there is actually research that suggests your brain works better and more efficiently on Ketones than it does on glucose and that traditionally ketosis is the natural state of the human body given that 99.9% of human history did not have access to the carbohydrates we have today.
can you show me that research about ketones and your brain working better off them than glucose? i'm honestly curious, because I still STRONGLY believe ketosis is NOT a good state to be in for long periods of time. It's just simply not sustainable.
the brain PREFERS glucose to ketones... so it seems to make more sense to me to give it what it wants...0 -
Simple answer: psychology. I did Low Carb for almost a year, lost a good amount of weight and I think it works to a certain extent (I could never eat over my caloric range because I would get literally sick from eating all that fat that I couldn't even think about food anymore...).
BUT, the big but here is that most people I know that started low carb with real eating problems did it to get rid of their sugar addictions. I had a serious sugar addiction and I figured if I just don't eat sugar anymore, I will not crave it anymore. True, this is what happened. I went through the whole withdrawal stage, etc.
Here is the problem: to me it was simply not realistic to never have carbs ever again. So as with any addiction, if you have a taste of it, you will fall right back. The biggest gains are at first from water weight. I then started loading up on carbs again (as a smoker would do if he would get a taste of it again), and gained the weight right back AND THEN SOME. Why? Because I restricted myself. Psychologically this is simply not healthy. You tell yourself you CAN'T EVER have this and that. As soon as you have a bit of it, you start binging. That is just how a eating disorder works.
That is why I believe in "everything in moderation". Don't restrict - it's asking for trouble.0 -
Your brain, which is responsible for more than just your thought processes (regulating heart beat, breathing, hormones, etc.) runs off of glucose. Where do you get glucose? From carbs. Sure your body can go through complex processes to get glucose from protein and fat but when it comes to my brain, I like to get what it needs without too much difficulty so that I can continue to go about my business (I'm a student, brain function is important to me).
This is simply not true... Carbohydrates are not required in a healthy human diet or put another way there is no such thing as an 'Essential Carbohydrate'. A lot of nutritionists will say that you require 120g to 130g of carbs in a healthy diet to maintain simply because they confuse what our brains get in a carbohydrate rich diet versus what they will get in a low carb diet. The fact is if there are no carbs in your diet the brain and central nervous system will run off molecules called 'ketones' which are synthesised in the liver from the fat we eat and also from the fatty acids mobilised from the fat tissue. With no carbs 'Ketones' will make up around 75% of the energy our brains use and the rest of the energy will come from glycerol, which is being released from the fat tissue when triglycerides are broken down and from glucose synthesised in the liver from the amino acids in protein. So a diet low in carbohydrates and high in protein and healthy fat will provide plenty of fuel for the brain.
Also, forgot to mention that there is actually research that suggests your brain works better and more efficiently on Ketones than it does on glucose and that traditionally ketosis is the natural state of the human body given that 99.9% of human history did not have access to the carbohydrates we have today.
can you show me that research about ketones and your brain working better off them than glucose? i'm honestly curious, because I still STRONGLY believe ketosis is NOT a good state to be in for long periods of time. It's just simply not sustainable.
the brain PREFERS glucose to ketones... so it seems to make more sense to me to give it what it wants...
I have some research somewhere I will try to find it and post it. Ketosis is a good state to be in, I found my body runs so much better since I went into ketosis, many, many months ago. I believe the problem is, people hear ketosis and panic, but ketosis is fine, ketoacidosis is not. T1 Diabetics who have high levels of ketones in their urine and high BG levels are in great danger, and need urgent medical attention, other people and even T2 diabetics like myself, are fine with ketosis. I keep my BG levels around the same level as the general population by ultra low carbing, and that keeps me in dietary ketosis. Sorry if you knew all of this, but many people do confuse being in ketosis and ketoacidosis. :-)0 -
can you show me that research about ketones and your brain working better off them than glucose? i'm honestly curious, because I still STRONGLY believe ketosis is NOT a good state to be in for long periods of time. It's just simply not sustainable.
the brain PREFERS glucose to ketones... so it seems to make more sense to me to give it what it wants...
Sure... let me dig it out. I definitely read it in a book by Gary Taubes called Why we get fat and what you can do about it and he referenced the research.0 -
can you show me that research about ketones and your brain working better off them than glucose? i'm honestly curious, because I still STRONGLY believe ketosis is NOT a good state to be in for long periods of time. It's just simply not sustainable.
the brain PREFERS glucose to ketones... so it seems to make more sense to me to give it what it wants...
Sure... let me dig it out. I definitely read it in a book by Gary Taubes called Why we get fat and what you can do about it and he referenced the research.
Gary Taubes, my hero. :-)0 -
can you show me that research about ketones and your brain working better off them than glucose? i'm honestly curious, because I still STRONGLY believe ketosis is NOT a good state to be in for long periods of time. It's just simply not sustainable.
the brain PREFERS glucose to ketones... so it seems to make more sense to me to give it what it wants...
Here are some links to some articles I have just found on the subject:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201104/your-brain-ketones
And one I managed to dig out from somewhere:
ARTICLE
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Low Carb Diets Feed Your Brain
Did you know that Mother Nature meant well creating ketones? Did you know that their main purpose is to feed the brain?
Yes, that's true no matter how many times you've heard the opposite from dieticians and nutritionists. "This bags the question of why a diet presumed so dangerous for fat loss is being used clinically without problem" -- Lyle McDonald, "The Ketogenic Diet." The part concerning clinical use became clear when you consider the brain-feeding function of ketones.
Is the state of ketosis natural? See for yourself. Ketosis occurs when concentration of ketone bodies in the blood elevates above 0.2 (mmll/dl) - twice as high as a standard average diet causes. After exercise, it jumps up to 2 mmll/dl 20 times the "normal" level! Meanwhile, have you ever heard that exercise is dangerous because it causes ketosis? What's the matter with professional nutrition establishment?
Did you know that the two ketone bodies, acetoacetate and D-3-hydroxybutyrate, are the only freely soluble fats (lipids) the body can use? This very important fact explains a significant part of the ketosis mystery.
Ketosis is achieved by reducing carbohydrates to such a low level that the body is forced to use incompletely metabolised fats (ketone bodies) as fuel.
Ketone bodies function as :
- Brain fuel. The major role of ketone bodies is to supply an alternative (to glucose) fuel for the brain in situations where there are little or no carbohydrates available with food.
- Building blocks for brain tissue. Ketone bodies are precursors for the essential substance (acetyl-CoA) required in the synthesis of lipid (myelin) in the neural cells.
The mechanisms for both major functions are described in the tiniest details. It is well know how they act on the cellular and intracellular (mitochondrial) levels and how they can correct certain pathological states of the brain cells.
The concentration of ketone bodies in the blood at any time represents a balance between the rate of their production by the liver and the rate of their use by tissues.
What concentration is normal?
- Norm (normoketonaemia) is a concentration of total ketone bodies in blood below 0.2 mmol/l.
- Ketosis (hyperketonaemia) is concentrations above this level but below the ketoacidosis.
- Ketoacidosis are concentrations above 7 mmol/l.
Past Technical Mistake Leads to Modern Misconception
Historically, ketosis was associated with the pathology of diabetes, resulting in the view that ketone bodies were toxic waste products. It happened simply because the only available test at that time detected 3-hydroxybutyrate (which, in fact, is not a ketone body at all but here it doesn't matter) in diabetic urine. Acetone on the other hand is a ketone and is present in blood and urine when the plasma concentration of acetoacetate is elevated. The body gets rid of it through the lungs; this is where the sweet smell on the breath during ketosis comes from.
In 1967, the streamline health sciences developed a so-called enzymatic method of analysis of acetoacetate and 3-hydroxybutyrate, which led to the dramatic finding that the human brain, while in the condition of prolonged starvation, was able to use ketone bodies. This finding triggered a reversal of the negative opinion of ketosis as a pathological and dangerous condition --well, almost.
Many, if not most, dieticians and nutritionists continue to warn dieters against the dangerous consequences of ketosis. Do you have any idea why?
Let us know your opinion! (editors~dietandbody.com?subject=Ketosis%20Misconception)
Sources
1. Bach AC, Ingenbleek Y and Frey A (1996). "The Usefulness of Dietary Medium-Chain Triglycerides in Body Weight Control: Fact or Fancy?" Journal of Lipid Research 37:708-726.
2. Girard, J.R.; Ferrè, P.; Pègorier, J.P.; and Duèe, P.H. (1992). "Adaptations of Glucose and Fatty Acid Metabolism During Perinatal Period and Suckling-Weanling Transition," Physiological Reviews 72:507-562.
3. Krebs, H.A.; Woods, H.F.; and Alberti, K.G.M.M. (1975). "Hyperlactataemia and Lactic Acidosis," Essays in Medical Biochemistry 1:81-103.
4. McGarry, J.D. and Foster, D.W. (1980). "Regulation of Hepatic Fatty Acid Oxidation and Ketone Body Production," Annual Review of Biochemistry 49:395-420.
5. Nehlig, A. and de Vasconcelos, A.P. (1993) "Glucose and Ketone Body Utilization by the Brain of Neonatal Rats," Progress in Neurobiology 40:163-221.
6. Owen, O.E.; Morgan, A.P.; Kemp, H.G.; Sullivan, J.M.; Herrera, M.G.; and Cahill, G.F. (1967). "Brain Metabolism During Fasting," Journal of Clinical Investigation 46:1589-1595.
7. Page, M.A. and Williamson, D.H. (1971). "Enzymes of Ketone Body Utilization in the Human Brain," Lancet 2:66-68.
8. Porter, R. and Lawrenson, G. (eds) (1982). "Metabolic Acidosis." Ciba Foundation Symposium 87: London: Pitman.
9. Robinson, A.M. and Williamson, D.H. (1980). "Physiological Roles of Ketone Bodies as Substrates and Signals in Mammalian Tissues," Physiological Reviews 60:143-187.
10. Williamson, D.H. (1982). "The Production and Utilization of Ketone Bodies in the Neonate." In: Jones CT (ed). The Biochemical Development of the Fetus, pp 621-650. Amsterdam: Elsevier Biomedical.
11. Williamson, D.H. (1987). "Brain Substrates and the Effects of Nutrition," Proceedings of Nutrition Society 46:81-87.
12. Zammit, V.A. (1996). "Role of Insulin in Hepatic Fatty Acid Partitioning: Emerging Concepts," Biochemical Journal 314:1-14.0 -
Read the entire article, aside from the fancy terminology such as "acetyl-CoA" (which by the way is produced during cellular respiration more efficiently [without the need for gluconeogenesis/an extra step] from the break down of glucose from 3-C pyruvic acid), it just seems to say what ketones are and make a big deal out of what they do as if carbohydrates don't provide the same function without forcing the body into gluconeogenesis therefore more efficiently.can you show me that research about ketones and your brain working better off them than glucose? i'm honestly curious, because I still STRONGLY believe ketosis is NOT a good state to be in for long periods of time. It's just simply not sustainable.
the brain PREFERS glucose to ketones... so it seems to make more sense to me to give it what it wants...
Here are some links to some articles I have just found on the subject:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201104/your-brain-ketones
And one I managed to dig out from somewhere:
ARTICLE
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*Edited out read on page 3*0 -
this.
Read the entire article, aside from the fancy terminology such as "acetyl-CoA" (which by the way is produced during cellular respiration more efficiently [without the need for gluconeogenesis/an extra step] from the break down of glucose from 3-C pyruvic acid), it just seems to say what ketones are and make a big deal out of what they do as if carbohydrates don't provide the same function without forcing the body into gluconeogenesis therefore more efficiently.can you show me that research about ketones and your brain working better off them than glucose? i'm honestly curious, because I still STRONGLY believe ketosis is NOT a good state to be in for long periods of time. It's just simply not sustainable.
the brain PREFERS glucose to ketones... so it seems to make more sense to me to give it what it wants...
Here are some links to some articles I have just found on the subject:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201104/your-brain-ketones
And one I managed to dig out from somewhere:
ARTICLE
******************************
*Edited out read on page 3*
also i've never seen a single study that suggests that ketosis is safe long-term.0 -
also i've never seen a single study that suggests that ketosis is safe long-term.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/179311.php
Can you show me a study that shows Ketosis is bad for you over a long period and bad for brain function?
Also, just to be clear I am not advocating that people should switch to low carb for the rest of their life and also I don't advocate zero carbs. But all this low carb is bad for you, your brain will stop working, you feel like crap, you can't excercise because you don't have energy, you will pile the weight back on when you stop.... Well it's all pretty much BS!
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also i've never seen a single study that suggests that ketosis is safe long-term.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/179311.php
Can you show me a study that shows Ketosis is bad for you over a long period and bad for brain function?
Also, just to be clear I am not advocating that people should switch to low carb for the rest of their life and also I don't advocate zero carbs. But all this low carb is bad for you, your brain will stop working, you feel like crap, you can't excercise because you don't have energy, you will pile the weight back on when you stop.... Well it's all pretty much BS!
:flowerforyou: I advocate a diet or way of eating that is right for the individual, I never try to push my choices onto anyone else. I also don't advocate zero carbs as this would mean completely removing all fruit (even though I only eat berries) and veggies, and that would be very wrong. One fantastic zero carb food that is used for energy is coconut oil. I have a large spoonful most mornings, sometimes with almonds, sometimes not, that easily keeps me going even if lunch is late, a couple of times I have had to skip lunch, but am fine, physically and mentally. I don't agree with all this low carb Ketosis will do this that and the other, all in a negative light. Yes, what I say is anecdotal, but friends who see me on a regular basis are amazed at what my diet has done for me. I am 47 yet don't look near my age, I used to, I really used to, not any more. Plus I am running around doing this that and the other. My Doctor supports me (I am in the UK) as he knows what I was, and now what I am. Please ask questions, have doubts, but don't discredit something simply on the basis you don't like/understand/believe it's wrong. We are all different, and for me I can't imagine a better lifestyle. I am also part owner of a health forum, we advocate LCHF there and we have not had a single member not make huge strides with their own management of their condition with a LCHF diet.0 -
From a biochemical standpoint, a "preferred" fuel simply means that the body will normally process this for fuel FIRST, if available, not that it's in any way better for it.can you show me that research about ketones and your brain working better off them than glucose? i'm honestly curious, because I still STRONGLY believe ketosis is NOT a good state to be in for long periods of time. It's just simply not sustainable.
the brain PREFERS glucose to ketones... so it seems to make more sense to me to give it what it wants...
... as for articles and studies, there are several. I'm not at work so can't post much, but a quick google search turns up the following.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201104/your-brain-ketones
http://neurorexia.wordpress.com/2013/03/24/brain-livin-on-ketones-a-molecular-neuroscience-look-at-the-ketogenic-diet/ ... (yes, a wordpress blog, but the author does include all scientific references in it...)
http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2011/06/22/are-low-carb-diets-bad-for-the-brain/
http://www.sott.net/article/249143-Ketogenic-Diet-high-fat-low-carb-Has-Neuroprotective-and-Disease-modifying-Effects
http://archive.ispub.com/journal/the-internet-journal-of-nutrition-and-wellness/volume-4-number-2/arguments-in-favor-of-ketogenic-diets.html#sthash.o1o0N1d5.dpbs
As for your belief it's "NOT a good state to be in for long periods of time" or that it's not sustainable... Those may be your beliefs, but unfortunately they're not based in science.
Many epileptics and diabetics have lived their entire lives in ketosis with nothing but improved health because of it. I've been ketogenic now for almost 2 and a half years myself. Dr. Richard K. Bernstein (a Type 1 diabetic and MD) has literally treated thousands of patients with long-term ketogenic diets, and he's not alone.
Ketogenic diets have been used for the entire lifespan of some people for well over a century now. Sustainability is up to the individual - there are thousands upon thousands of us that have no issue with staying in ketosis for life.0 -
also i've never seen a single study that suggests that ketosis is safe long-term.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/179311.php
Can you show me a study that shows Ketosis is bad for you over a long period and bad for brain function?
Also, just to be clear I am not advocating that people should switch to low carb for the rest of their life and also I don't advocate zero carbs. But all this low carb is bad for you, your brain will stop working, you feel like crap, you can't excercise because you don't have energy, you will pile the weight back on when you stop.... Well it's all pretty much BS!
you can't scientifically prove a negative...0 -
also i've never seen a single study that suggests that ketosis is safe long-term.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/179311.php
Can you show me a study that shows Ketosis is bad for you over a long period and bad for brain function?
Also, just to be clear I am not advocating that people should switch to low carb for the rest of their life and also I don't advocate zero carbs. But all this low carb is bad for you, your brain will stop working, you feel like crap, you can't excercise because you don't have energy, you will pile the weight back on when you stop.... Well it's all pretty much BS!
also, did you read the study? every single one of the subjects eventually came OFF the diet! why did they do that if it's advantageous to remain in ketosis long-term?The evidence is based on a study of 101 patients ages 2 to 26 years treated with the ketogenic diet for a minimum of 16 months and for up to eight years at Hopkins Children's between 1993 and 2008. At the time of the follow-up, patients were off the diet anywhere between eight months and 14 years. Nearly 80 percent of the patients remained either seizure-free or had their seizures reduced by half. Most patients' seizures did not worsen even years after stopping the diet.0 -
From a biochemical standpoint, a "preferred" fuel simply means that the body will normally process this for fuel FIRST, if available, not that it's in any way better for it.can you show me that research about ketones and your brain working better off them than glucose? i'm honestly curious, because I still STRONGLY believe ketosis is NOT a good state to be in for long periods of time. It's just simply not sustainable.
the brain PREFERS glucose to ketones... so it seems to make more sense to me to give it what it wants...
... as for articles and studies, there are several. I'm not at work so can't post much, but a quick google search turns up the following.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201104/your-brain-ketones
http://neurorexia.wordpress.com/2013/03/24/brain-livin-on-ketones-a-molecular-neuroscience-look-at-the-ketogenic-diet/ ... (yes, a wordpress blog, but the author does include all scientific references in it...)
http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2011/06/22/are-low-carb-diets-bad-for-the-brain/
http://www.sott.net/article/249143-Ketogenic-Diet-high-fat-low-carb-Has-Neuroprotective-and-Disease-modifying-Effects
http://archive.ispub.com/journal/the-internet-journal-of-nutrition-and-wellness/volume-4-number-2/arguments-in-favor-of-ketogenic-diets.html#sthash.o1o0N1d5.dpbs
As for your belief it's "NOT a good state to be in for long periods of time" or that it's not sustainable... Those may be your beliefs, but unfortunately they're not based in science.
Many epileptics and diabetics have lived their entire lives in ketosis with nothing but improved health because of it. I've been ketogenic now for almost 2 and a half years myself. Dr. Richard K. Bernstein (a Type 1 diabetic and MD) has literally treated thousands of patients with long-term ketogenic diets, and he's not alone.
Ketogenic diets have been used for the entire lifespan of some people for well over a century now. Sustainability is up to the individual - there are thousands upon thousands of us that have no issue with staying in ketosis for life.
before i read through them all, do any of them focus on long-term effects specifically?0 -
What is keto-adaptation?
Keto-adaptation is the process of shifting your metabolism from relying mostly on glucose for fuel, to relying mostly on fat-based sources of fuel. Not only does fat oxidation itself increase, but your body starts producing enough ketones that they can be used as a significant source of fuel as well. Ketones are derived from partially metabolized fat, and they can be used in many of the same tissues of the body as glucose can, including much of the brain. The benefits of using fat and ketones rather than glucose for fuel are many, and are the main subject of this site. However, it takes time for the metabolism to adjust to producing and using ketones at a significant rate. Even though changes are evident within days of carbohydrate restriction, improvements continue for weeks.
In brief:
Carbohydrate-based fueling is a self-perpetuating cycle: it runs out quickly, and every time you eat more carbs you delay adaptation to fat-burning.
Fat-based fueling is sustainable, because it allows access to a very large store of energy without you frequently stopping to refuel. Blood sugar is maintained though precise internal processes without wild swings. These two together create a desirable flow of even, stable energy, mood, and alertness.
There is a delay between first reducing the amount of carbohydrates that you eat, and having a smoothly running fat metabolism. In the intervening days, you may feel slow, or even unwell. These symptoms can be minimized by making sure to eat lots of fat, staying hydrated, and using salt liberally. Other electrolytes may also be helpful to add -- homemade broth makes a good supplement. Keep carbs consistently low, or you will never adapt and the process will go on indefinitely.
Carbohydrate-based fueling is a self-perpetuating cycle.
The body can store only relatively small amounts of glucose, in the form of glycogen. About 100 grams can be stored in the liver, and about 400 grams can be stored in the muscles. Muscle glycogen can only be used by the muscle it is stored in — it can't go back to the bloodstream — so the liver glycogen is the only source that can be used to keep blood sugar stable, and provide fuel for the brain. If you are not making use of ketones for fuel, then this is not enough glucose to get through a typical day, let alone a day when you are doing something strenuous. If you depend on glucose metabolism, then you have to frequently replenish your glycogen stores or you will begin to feel tired, physically and mentally.
There are basically two ways to get the necessary glucose, and only one of them involves eating it. The first is to eat carbohydrate. Unfortunately, every time you ingest more than a small amount of carbohydrate, it stops all progression toward keto-adaptation. So this strategy is a Catch-22. It makes you continually dependent on dietary carbohydrate. It locks you in, because supply is limited, but restocking prevents other fuels from becoming available.
The other way to get glucose is to let the body make its own on demand out of protein. This process is called gluconeogenesis. Gluconeogenesis is the reason that eating carbohydrate is not necessary, even though some amount of glucose is manufactured and used internally. This is analogous to any other internally produced nutrient, such as vitamin D, which we don't need to ingest, because the body makes it in response to sun exposure, or to a hormone, like adrenaline, that we make and use every day, but don't need to get from food.
One of the benefits that comes directly from this physiological mechanism is that on a keto diet you will no longer need to eat so often. Skipping a meal does not become an emergency, or even a problem. A lot of people have problems with mood, cognition, and wakefulness if they don't eat frequently. On a keto diet your blood sugar will naturally become steady, and the advice to eat every 3 hours to prevent hypoglycemia will become irrelevant.
What exactly happens during keto-adaptation?
In their recent book The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living, Volek and Phinney describe two stages of keto-adaptation. In the first few days of a keto diet, your body is still running on glycogen stores. This is the toughest part of the process, because in order to break the vicious cycle of glucose-based metabolism, you have to avoid eating carbohydrates, even though your glycogen stores are dwindling. Fat metabolism is still not optimized, and ketone production hasn't become significant.
Another noticeable effect in the first days is water loss. One of the inefficiencies of glycogen storage is that it needs to be stored with water. It takes about 3 or 4 grams of water to store a gram of glycogen [1] . This means that as you deplete your glycogen stores you could lose up to 2 kg of water! Not only that, but high circulating insulin levels cause water retention by inhibiting sodium excretion (see e.g. [2]). The keto diet lowers insulin levels and increases insulin sensitivity, allowing excess fluid to be released. These combined effects are the origin of the claim that the weight lost on keto diets is due to water loss. In the very beginning, this is true, but subsequently, of course, it is not.
When glycogen runs out, you start producing ketones, and some are excreted in the urine. This is easy to measure, and some keto dieters use it to know if they are hitting a low enough level of carbohydrate restriction. This also marks the beginning of the second stage of keto-adaptation. Ketones are now becoming available for fuel, but they haven't yet risen to their stable adapted level. There is an interesting interplay between ketone use in the muscles and the brain. When ketone levels are low, the muscles tend to use them directly for fuel, but as levels increase, the muscles use them less, turning to fat for fuel instead. The brain, on the other hand, uses ketones proportionally to their concentration in the blood. This means that at low levels of ketones, the brain's supply is not much affected, because the muscles intercede, but above some threshold, the brain's supply rapidly becomes much higher. At this point, the brain can rely on ketones, and since it is no longer susceptible to running out of fuel, the need to eat frequently throughout the day to maintain mental function disappears. The muscles in turn now rely on fat: they finally have access to a virtually unlimited supply of energy, which is particularly valuable for athletes.
Much confusion has been generated by scientists not recognizing one or both stages of keto-adaptation. A few studies have been publicized claiming that low carbohydrate diets worsen mental or physical performance (e.g. [3], [4]). On reading the details, it turns out that the testing was done in the first few days of carbohydrate restriction. Obviously, these studies are not valid criticisms of the keto diet, except as measurements of the initial adaptation cost. They do not reflect the longer-term outcome.
How to make keto-adaptation as quick and painless as possible
As noted above, the difficult part of keto-adaptation is the first stage. There are two reasons. The first is that glucose is less available, but fat and ketone metabolism haven't effectively taken over. The best strategy for coping with this is to eat a lot of fat. Even if you eventually wish to get most of your fat from your fat stores, you do not normally need to restrict it in the diet, and especially not now. Fat is an important source of essential fatty acids and nutrients. Moreover, ingesting fat with protein helps to moderate the insulin response. A keto diet is not a high protein diet, it is a high fat diet. Do not fear it. Eat plenty of fat during keto-adaptation to ensure you have energy available.
The second difficulty is a result of the sodium excretion and transient rapid water loss we mentioned. If care is not taken to replenish sodium and water, both sodium and potassium are sometimes lost too rapidly. This can cause tiredness, weakness, and headaches. Be sure to get enough sodium: about 5 grams per day, or 2 teaspoons of table salt, will help prevent these symptoms.
Adequate potassium may be necessary to preserve lean mass [5], and magnesium deficiency can lead to muscle cramps, as well as fatigue and dizziness. Both of these minerals are abundant in meat, but are easily lost though cooking: into the water, if the meat was boiled, or the drippings otherwise. In addition to taking care to preserve the liquid from meat, acute effects can be cut short through supplementing potassium and magnesium by capsule. We recommend regularly drinking broth.
Finally, keep your dietary carbohydrates low. The worst scenario is to eat some every few days -- you will set yourself back, and be in perpetual limbo. Now is not the time to experiment with your carbohydrate tolerance, or eat foods you aren't sure about the content of. Commit to a very low level of carbohydrate intake, and stay with it consistently for at least long enough to get ketone production in full force. Most people we have talked to, if they experienced any discomfort at all, felt fully functional within 4 or 5 days. However, metabolic changes continue for at least two weeks and often more [6]. We recommend a 30 day trial at near zero levels of carbohydrate, to give yourself a chance to experience a completely keto-adapted state.
Tools:
The USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference is a large database of nutrients including carbohydrate levels of whole foods and fast foods both.
Testing strips for urine ketones are useful for figuring out if you are getting into ketosis. We haven't tried this brand, but it's currently a good price. We've used Ketostix, and they work fine.
A fancier tool is a blood ketone meter. It works just like a glucose meter. In fact it doubles as one. This is better than urine testing, because it is more accurate, and it measures actual blood concentration. However, the test strips are pretty expensive.
Further Reading:
Much of the information in the post was gleaned from The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living, and The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance, by Drs. Volek and Phinney.
Dr. Michael Eades has written a helpful post about keto-adaptation with special emphasis on the role of electrolytes.
References:
[1] Evidence type: experimental.
Olsson, K.-E. and Saltin, B. (1970), Variation in Total Body Water with Muscle Glycogen Changes in Man. Acta Physiologica Scandinavica, 80: 11–18. doi: 10.1111/j.1748-1716.1970.tb04764.x
"19 subjects performed prolonged heavy arm and leg exercise after which they had a protein and fat diet for three days. Thereafter they switched to a carbohydrate enriched diet during a 4-day period. The measurements were performed on the 3rd day and then repeated on the 7th day. The glycogen concentration in the thigh and the arm muscles was 4.5 and 2.6 g/kg wet muscle on the 3rd day and increased with the carbohydrate enriched diet to 19.9 and 16.9 g/kg wet muscle, respectively. Body weight increased 2.4 kg during this period of 4 days. The total body water increased 2.2 1 which is assumed to be caused by the glycogen storage in the muscles and the liver. The amount of glycogen stored was calculated to be at least 500 g, which means that 3-4 g of water is bound with each gram of glycogen."
[2] Evidence type: review of a variety of experimental conditions.
R. A. DeFronzo (1981) The effect of insulin on renal sodium metabolism: A review with clinical implications. Diabetologia Volume 21, Number 3, 165-171, DOI: 10.1007/BF00252649
"Abstract
Data are discussed which demonstrate that insulin plays an important role in sodium metabolism. The primary action of insulin on sodium balance is exerted on the kidney. Increases in plasma insulin concentration within the physiological range stimulate sodium reabsorption by the distal nephron segments and this effect is independent of changes in circulating metabolites or other hormones. Several clinical situations are reviewed: sodium wasting in poorly controlled diabetics, natriuresis of starvation, anti-natriuresis of refeeding and hypertension of obesity, in which insulin-mediated changes in sodium balance have been shown to play an important pathophysiological role."
[3] Langfort J, Zarzeczny R, Pilis W, Nazar K, Kaciuba-Uścitko H. The effect of a low-carbohydrate diet on performance, hormonal and metabolic responses to a 30-s bout of supramaximal exercise. Eur J Appl Physiol Occup Physiol. 1997;76(2):128-33.
The aim of this study was to find out whether a low-carbohydrate diet (L-CHO) affects: (1) the capacity for all-out anaerobic exercise, and (2) hormonal and metabolic responses to this type of exercise. To this purpose, eight healthy subjects underwent a 30-s bicycle Wingate test preceded by either 3 days of a controlled mixed diet (130 kJ/kg of body mass daily, 50% carbohydrate, 30% fat, 20% protein) or 3 days of an isoenergetic L-CHO diet (up to 5% carbohydrate, 50% fat, 45% protein) in a randomized order.
...
The main conclusions of this study are: (1) a L-CHO diet is detrimental to anaerobic work capacity, possibly because of a reduced muscle glycogen store and decreased rate of glycolysis; (2) reduced carbohydrate intake for 3 days enhances activity of the sympathoadrenal system at rest and after exercise.
[4] D'Anci KE, Watts KL, Kanarek RB, Taylor HA. Low-carbohydrate weight-loss diets. Effects on cognition and mood. Appetite. 2009 Feb;52(1):96-103. Epub 2008 Aug 29.
In the present experiment, cognitive effects of a low-carbohydrate diet were compared to those of another popular weight reduction diet over a 3-week period.
...
These data suggest that after a week of severe carbohydrate restriction, memory performance, particularly on difficult tasks (e.g., backward compared to forward digit span; spatial memory), is impaired.
Comment: This paper is interesting. The low carb dieters experienced memory deficits one week into the diet, and long term memory problems later, but the long term memory experiments were from memories that were formed at that same one week point, and so the problems were likely to be from poor memory formation, not poor recall ability. The authors suggest that cognition was better after more carbohydrate was added, but in the latter two weeks of the experiment the amount of carbohydrate added was very low, and the subjects were still well within ketogenic levels. So this isn't a very compelling explanation. It seems much more plausible to us that this improvement was from keto-adaptation. While we don't completely agree with the analysis of the authors, they did not state such a ridiculous interpretation of their findings in their paper as they did in the press: Science Daily reports:
A new study from the psychology department at Tufts University shows that when dieters eliminate carbohydrates from their meals, they performed more poorly on memory-based tasks than when they reduce calories, but maintain carbohydrates. When carbohydrates were reintroduced, cognition skills returned to normal.
"This study demonstrates that the food you eat can have an immediate impact on cognitive behavior," explains Holly A. Taylor, professor of psychology at Tufts and corresponding author of the study. "The popular low-carb, no-carb diets have the strongest potential for negative impact on thinking and cognition."
Whereas the abstract itself was more factual:
"Results showed that during complete withdrawal of dietary carbohydrate, low-carbohydrate dieters performed worse on memory-based tasks than ADA dieters. These impairments were ameliorated after reintroduction of carbohydrates. Low-carbohydrate dieters reported less confusion (POMS) and responded faster during an attention vigilance task (CPT) than ADA dieters. Hunger ratings did not differ between the two diet conditions. The present data show memory impairments during low-carbohydrate diets at a point when available glycogen stores would be at their lowest. A commonly held explanation based on preoccupation with food would not account for these findings. The results also suggest better vigilance attention and reduced self-reported confusion while on the low-carbohydrate diet, although not tied to a specific time point during the diet. Taken together the results suggest that weight-loss diet regimens differentially impact cognitive behavior."
In other words, except for the memory problems that can be accounted for by keto-adaptation, the low carb dieters had equal or better cognitive performance than the ADA dieters, and yet this is cited as proof of the opposite!
[5] Evidence type: explanation and comparison of experiments.
Stephen D Phinney (2004) Ketogenic diets and physical performance. Nutrition & Metabolism 2004, 1:2 doi:10.1186/1743-7075-1-2
"An example of what happens when these mineral considerations are not heeded can be found in a study prominently published in 1980 [18]. This was a study designed to evaluate the relative value of "protein only" versus "protein plus carbohydrate" in the preservation of lean tissue during a weight loss diet. The protein only diet consisted solely of boiled turkey (taken without the broth), whereas the protein plus carbohydrate consisted of an equal number of calories provided as turkey plus grape juice. Monitored for 4 weeks in a metabolic ward, the subjects taking the protein plus carbohydrate did fairly well at maintaining lean body mass (measured by nitrogen balance), whereas those taking the protein only experienced a progressive loss of body nitrogen.
A clue to what was happening in this "Turkey Study" could be found in the potassium balance data provided in this report. Normally, nitrogen and potassium gains or losses are closely correlated, as they both are contained in lean tissue. Interestingly, the authors noted that the protein only diet subjects were losing nitrogen but gaining potassium. As noted in a rebuttal letter published soon after this report [19], this anomaly occurred because the authors assumed the potassium intake of their subjects based upon handbook values for raw turkey, not recognizing that half of this potassium was being discarded in the unconsumed broth. Deprived of this potassium (and also limited in their salt intake), these subjects were unable to benefit from the dietary protein provided and lost lean tissue. Also worthy of note, although this study was effectively refuted by a well-designed metabolic ward study published 3 years later [20], this "Turkey Study" continues to be quoted as an example of the limitations of low carbohydrate weight loss diets."
[6] Evidence type: experiment.
Oliver E. Owen, Philip Felig, Alfred P. Morgan, John Wahren, and George F. Cahill, Jr. Liver and kidney metabolism during prolonged starvation. J Clin Invest. 1969 March; 48(3): 574–583.
"Blood glucose and insulin concentrations fell acutely during the 1st 3 days of fasting, and alpha amino nitrogen after 17 days. The concentration of free fatty acids, β-hydroxybutyrate, and acetoacetate did not reach a plateau until after 17 days."
http://www.ketotic.org/2012/05/keto-adaptation-what-it-is-and-how-to.html
This is not the article I wanted, I will have to try to find it tomorrow, but this gives an idea of why I choose to follow a keto diet.0 -
Specific studies on longer-term use of ketogenic diets will mostly be on epileptics, as VLCKD have been recommended for treatment of epilepsy for over a century, with NEVER any changes in that recommendation despite over a hundred years of research.before i read through them all, do any of them focus on long-term effects specifically?
Diabetic studies aren't as long-term in many cases as after the advent of insulin therapy, the ketogenic diet was often discontinued for diabetes management. However as Type II progresses to epidemic proportions and more research is underway, that dietary recommendation is changing - even for Type 1 patients.
The big reason insulin-dependent diabetics are now being recommended to go low-carb is that many are starting to become insulin-resistant (likely due to the massive increase in refined carbohydrates in the western diet in the past few decades). So they now have both the hallmarks of Types I and II diabetes... Insulin-resistance is the biggest reason to go low-carb.
Again, you'll find nothing in any long-term ketosis study that suggests it is unhealthy, even those studies of patients that have been on the diet for decades.0 -
Even under a ketogenic diet your primary source of energy is glucose. The difference is that the glucose made various amino acids found in proteins (the amino acids that can be converted into glucose are also known as glucogenic amino acids, the only amino acids that can't be converted into glucose that I know of are leucine and lysine [also known as ketogenic amino acids]). You aren't changing your fuel source, you are changing how your body produces the fuel it needs... and the fuel does not come from fat, it comes from proteins.Keto-adaptation is the process of shifting your metabolism from relying mostly on glucose for fuel, to relying mostly on fat-based sources of fuel.
Well the statement is true... but you will eventually get hungry regardless of the macro-nutrient content of your food, no food lasts as an infinite source of energy and satiety. Eating itself could be considered a self-perpetuating cycle.Carbohydrate-based fueling is a self-perpetuating cycle.
Technically you never break out of a "glucose-based" metabolism, your body is still converting amino acids into glucose. The fact that your body is producing ketones to convert amino acids into glucose speaks volumes on the importance of glucose. "Glucose-based" metabolisms aren't something you want to avoid, even on a ketogenic diet you are still on a "glucose-based" metabolism.What exactly happens during keto-adaptation?
In their recent book The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living, Volek and Phinney describe two stages of keto-adaptation. In the first few days of a keto diet, your body is still running on glycogen stores. This is the toughest part of the process, because in order to break the vicious cycle of glucose-based metabolism, you have to avoid eating carbohydrates, even though your glycogen stores are dwindling. Fat metabolism is still not optimized, and ketone production hasn't become significant.0 -
This is incorrect. Regardless of your metabolic pathway, the primary source of energy is ATP. Outside of ketosis this is generated via glucose, but when keto-adapted ATP is ultimately generated from fatty-acids.Even under a ketogenic diet your primary source of energy is glucose.
This is still incorrect. You're thinking of gluconeogenesis, which is a process the body utilizes to make a very small amount of required glucose while fat-adapted. The primary fuel source is still fatty-acids (for ATP/cellular respiration) and ketones for our brain. While ketogenic your brain derives about 70% of it's energy from ketones.You aren't changing your fuel source, you are changing how your body produces the fuel it needs... and the fuel does not come from fat, it comes from proteins.
Again, just to stress, this is incorrect. When ketogenic you are keto-adapted and primarily get all your energy from fatty acids and ketones. There is VERY little glucose generated via gluconeogenesis."Glucose-based" metabolisms aren't something you want to avoid, even on a ketogenic diet you are still on a "glucose-based" metabolism.
The fact is even in a NON-ketogenic dieter the brain requires less than 100g of glucose to function/perform well. In a keto-adapted person it needs only 30g, and this is very-easily synthesized from gluconeogenesis. The rest of your TDEE (for most people 2,000+ calories) will come from fatty-acid and amino acids - NOT from glucose.
When keto-adapted you are NOT still in a glucose metabolism, that is a fact.0 -
BTW for any that still choose to believe a ketogenic diet still converts dietary intake to glucose, please read "The Ketogenic Diet: A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner" by Lyle McDonald.
Or visit Dr. Peter Attia's excellent website and read the information here: http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-i
And think for yourselves - if ketogenic dieters were converting their intake to glucose, WHY would it be recommended to control diabetes for over a century? The idea makes no sense.0 -
^ I just got owned LOL
This is incorrect. Regardless of your metabolic pathway, the primary source of energy is ATP. Outside of ketosis this is generated via glucose, but when keto-adapted ATP is ultimately generated from fatty-acids.Even under a ketogenic diet your primary source of energy is glucose.
This is still incorrect. You're thinking of gluconeogenesis, which is a process the body utilizes to make a very small amount of required glucose while fat-adapted. The primary fuel source is still fatty-acids (for ATP/cellular respiration) and ketones for our brain. While ketogenic your brain derives about 70% of it's energy from ketones.You aren't changing your fuel source, you are changing how your body produces the fuel it needs... and the fuel does not come from fat, it comes from proteins.
Again, just to stress, this is incorrect. When ketogenic you are keto-adapted and primarily get all your energy from fatty acids and ketones. There is VERY little glucose generated via gluconeogenesis."Glucose-based" metabolisms aren't something you want to avoid, even on a ketogenic diet you are still on a "glucose-based" metabolism.
The fact is even in a NON-ketogenic dieter the brain requires less than 100g of glucose to function/perform well. In a keto-adapted person it needs only 30g, and this is very-easily synthesized from gluconeogenesis. The rest of your TDEE (for most people 2,000+ calories) will come from fatty-acid and amino acids - NOT from glucose.
When keto-adapted you are NOT still in a glucose metabolism, that is a fact.
Seems like I've gotten two things mixed up with each other (should be understandable, both are caused by low carbohydrate intake which was the original point of this thread, not necessarily ketogenic diets). Confusion happens. That said it is still my opinion that low carb diets aren't a sustainable model for optimal performance and fat loss for the average person.
Edit: Do you know how a low/no carb diet would affect performance in anaerobic activity?0 -
I think you should do it and tell us the results
!
But i dont get it, peoples 'normal' eating resulted in them gaining weight so why do they want to go back to that, instead of redefining and re-evaluating their term of 'normal'.
Or when people think you revert back to 'normal' that you are going to do the same, and then eat alot more ontop of it.
A 'diet' that makes you learn to eat more healthy food, isnt necessarily a bad thing hopefully it will turn into a lifestyle rather than a short term solution to a long term problem.
I submit that eating more food than is necessary is not "normal" eating at all. Rather, it's "overeating." I have certainly learned a lot of things that I wish I had learned when I was young. But I'm happy to eat a normal amount of food now. For me, it was never about binge-eating or emotional-eating or whatever, but simply ignorance and not looking closely in the mirror.0 -
Well problem #1 in your argument. A calorie isn't a calorie when it comes to optimum performance/results. If you're not familiar with cell metabolism and stuff like the krebs cycle I'd recommend you to google them. If you're too lazy for that then just ask yourself this why do athletes carb up before a big event instead of eating tubs of butter? Because a calorie isn't a calorie.I keep reading how difficult it is to maintain a low carb lifestyle in the long run, and that all the weight people doing LC work to lose will just come back when they re-introduce carbs. Why? If a calorie is a calorie, and you stay within your caloric goal, why on earth would the weight come back? Just curious if there is some sort of metabolic damage you can do to your body by being LC that won't allow it to metabolize them properly if you did add them back in (always assuming you're eating to maintain or at a deficit)
One thing I did learn as a kid, eating a candy bar before a game was much better than drinking a glass of milk. Milk would slow me down, but sugar would rev me up and ensure that I didn't lose stamina before the game was over.0 -
And in this I totally agree with you. The body has the keto-adaptation mechanism to deal with fasting situations (whether intentionally fasting or in a starvation situation) ... It's been found to be a great mechanism for treating diabetes and epilepsy, as well as insulin-resistance (which manifests itself in metabolic syndrome, PCOS and other situations) and, of course, in losing both fat and water effectively.That said it is still my opinion that low carb diets aren't a sustainable model for optimal performance and fat loss for the average person.
But no, it's by no means the BEST diet for the average person in terms of something they can live with their entire life, as most people simply do not NEED to be in ketosis forever.0 -
Yes, and it depends. (I hate that answer, but let me explain...)Edit: Do you know how a low/no carb diet would affect performance in anaerobic activity?
First, in most of the anaerobic activity we undertake even the ketogenic dieter would have enough glycogen stores to perform most anaerobic activity that the average person undertakes, such as strength-training, a long sprint or extended hill-climb while running/cycling, etc. It's extremely rare for a ketogenic dieter to have no glycogen (although they often have reduced stores), except for immediately after training.
Even endurance athletes that are low-carb are finding that the fact that they are fat-adapted gives them an overall advantage - One such example is Tim Olson, 2012 winner of the Western States 100 Mile Endurance Run - who, as a low-carber, set a new course record. Any endurance race of this sort will have hilly sections that push one into anaerobic, yet he not only fared fine, but continued to put more distance between himself and every competitor for each and every mile after 85 ...
In sprint-type performance, however, I think things MAY be different for athletes at an elite level. I do not personally believe, based on what we know of the metabolic pathways, that elite athletes in say a 200m or 400m race could perform as well on a ketogenic diet as on a higher-carbohydrate diet.
Anecdotal, but for myself - as a former competitive cyclist and sprint specialist I can say that since getting on a bike again, I do NOT have the same sprint capabilities at the end of a 100km long bike ride as I thought I would - even factoring in age, conditioning and physical limitations. I *DO* however have a phenomenal burst for an old guy when I'm simply warmed up - last summer I hit 69km/h on a flat with no measurable tailwind on a $400 used road bicycle. I also maintained a 44km/h average over a short, 20km time-trial. As such I can only conclude that my diet has impacted my performance for longer events (due to decreased overall glycogen stores), but not the shorter ones (where I have enough glycogen to complete the exercise). Honestly, it's no biggie as I cycle purely for enjoyment and fitness now - I can't compete as my spine wouldn't survive a major crash.
That being said, however, the vast-majority of us - and likely 100% of those on MFP - are NOT elite-caliber athletes.
... and elite caliber athletes don't usually need to look at eating low-carb to control either obesity or diabetes
0 -
I didn't read all the replies.... so if someone else answered this more intelligently than me.... ignore this
The idea that you'll gain it back isn't because carbs will make you gain weight... it because usually once a diet fails (any diet) the dieter is most likely going to rebel and eat too much to make up for the over-deficit.
I'm not "paleo" or "gluten-free" or whatever. I would consider myself as that IIFYM type... because IIFYM is not a diet, it's an attitude toward food.
That being said... I tend to limit my carbs. Not because they are "evil" but because I can eat a pound of chicken (sauted in olive oil and dressing with a yummy sauce) and 2 cups of roasted veggies for lunch, stay within my calories, feel amazingly full and I simply can't do that with rice or pasta. But that is just MY satiety and doesn't fit everyone else. (I also don't like protein for breakfast and will eat a bagel or oatmeal if I eat breakfast... which I normally don't... and supposedly not eating breakfast is a non-no and it will make me 200 lbs overweight with a severely damaged metabolism... NOT TRUE.)0 -
Low carb means little to no chocolate, which means unhappy Howl.
Unhappy Howl means unpleasant Howl. This is turn means a lot of offended people.
Conclusion? Howl + Low Cab = Bad Idea.0 -
Oh no no no!Low carb means little to no chocolate, which means unhappy Howl.
Low carb doesn't have to mean low-chocolate, IF you don't mind making your own chocolate treats...
I melt 85% dark chocolate with a little bit of full-fat heavy cream and add some chopped almonds and a sprinkling of Truvia (which is a combination of stevia and erythritol) into a wonderfully rich milk-chocolate almond treat which when cooled, is low-carb, full of those wonderful chocolate antioxidants / flavonoids and even is rated "wife-approved" by my dear wife when she wants a chocolate fix.0 -
interesting topic0
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Look at all these doctors talking about ketosis like they know all about it
Can we agree to disagree? For some people it works long term, for others it doesn't. End of story.0 -
That said it is still my opinion that low carb diets aren't a sustainable model for optimal performance and fat loss for the average person.
Well, that is true for any diet... Why is it that over 99% of people who go on a diet fail? The reason why it's unsustainable is nothing to do with the diet itself but more to do with the person on the diet. How long can someone sustain being on a calorie deficit? The fact is it all comes down to people's will power and attitude to succeed in the long term. Regardless of whether it's low carb or not to live a healthy lifestyle and follow good nutrition requires sacrife at some point and for the vast majority of people this is simply not sustainable over a long period. So I think we need to distinguish between a low carb or any diet being sustainable versus is low carb good/bad for you.0
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