In Place of a Road Map: Short N' Sweet

RMinge14

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SophieB99

Thanks!! Will def use this!

paprad

Heybales thanks so much for looking into my doubts

1 - But the low/medium cardio did raise the TDEE didn't it? But not enough that the TDEG wasn't limited by the BMR.
This means you have enough to lose that you can support a bigger deficit, but with the choke point being the fact I don't go below BMR as minimal TDEG, TDEE had to go up more for TDEG to go above BMR.
Notice the change in TDEE, it does go up slowly for walking, as walking really doesn't add much in the scheme of overall calorie burn.

Yes, that's right. I suspected that my required weight loss (30-40 lb) is so high that moderate cardio won't make a huge impact

Thanks for clarifying that part.

I didn't fully understand the next bit, though - with regard to zero lifting. If I put in zero in the weigh training cell, it drops my TDEE (makes sense) but raises my TDEG. It's not a huge difference but it is curious, that. I would understand if there was zero (calorific) impact with strength training (in the short run), but not this slighly inverse impact.

The other doubt I have now : if TDEG only goes up with high cardio, then is it recommended we fit in high cardio along with strength training? because the NROL4W sort of says not to go too intense on cardio in the beginning, not to get stressed on recovery rates.

paprad

One more question (sorry!)

How often should one change the values in the spreadsheet? I presume 2-5lb fluctuations can be left out and the TDEG followed for a fairly long time?

At what weight drop intervals (optimistic me!) should I go and alter the original set up figures?

heybales

1 - But the low/medium cardio did raise the TDEE didn't it? But not enough that the TDEG wasn't limited by the BMR.
This means you have enough to lose that you can support a bigger deficit, but with the choke point being the fact I don't go below BMR as minimal TDEG, TDEE had to go up more for TDEG to go above BMR.
Notice the change in TDEE, it does go up slowly for walking, as walking really doesn't add much in the scheme of overall calorie burn.

Yes, that's right. I suspected that my required weight loss (30-40 lb) is so high that moderate cardio won't make a huge impact

Thanks for clarifying that part.

I didn't fully understand the next bit, though (quoted below) - with regard to zero lifting. If I put in zero in the weigh training cell, it drops my TDEE (makes sense) but raises my TDEG. It's not a huge difference but it is curious, that. I would understand if there was zero (calorific) impact with strength training (in the short run), but not this slighly inverse impact.

The other doubt I have now : if TDEG only goes up with high cardio, then is it recommended we fit in high cardio along with strength training? because the NROL4W sort of says not to go too intense on cardio in the beginning, not to get stressed on recovery rates.

Your amount of weight loss has nothing to do with the impact of medium cardio adding to TDEE. It does have an effect on the amount of deficit given, and therefore your recommended TDEG. Many hrs of medium cardio can have more impact than much shorter high cardio. But then again, the end result could end up being exactly the same TDEE, and the TDEG would be the same too.

If you lift, you get bigger deficit than if you didn't lift. That's it. Bigger deficit of course translates to lower TDEG.
If you do lift, your TDEE goes up, your TDEG goes down. Bigger deficit allowed.
If you do not lift, your TDEE goes down, your TDEG goes up. Smaller deficit should be used.

Now, your ratio of lifting to high cardio is a sliding scale, I comment on that below Your results.
If you only lift and no high cardio, you get the biggest deficit possible, the full 0.7% of body weight, but not below BMR.
If you only do cardio or nothing, you get a sliding deficit of 10-20% depending on amount to lose. More is bigger.
If you do both, it's a sliding scale between those 2 methods.
So if you do 50/50 between them, and a lot to lose, then your half-way in the range between 20% and 0.7% of bodyweight, whatever that deficit amount works out to in either case.

That's how it works.

Don't understand your last question. If you want less deficit and more to eat, then yes, you can increase your TDEG by doing more high cardio.
You could also just eat more than your TDEG for that matter without doing any high cardio. That is recommended minimum to avoid muscle mass loss. Again, you can eat more, just won't lose at much safely.

And yes, it is hard to fit in really intense cardio in with a lifting routine. Done before or after a lifting day, and you are impacting the ability to get the most out of the lifting routine, somewhat wasting your effort to some degree, and impacting your performance.

heybales

One more question (sorry!)

How often should one change the values in the spreadsheet? I presume 2-5lb fluctuations can be left out and the TDEG followed for a fairly long time?

At what weight drop intervals (optimistic me!) should I go and alter the original set up figures?

Change your weight by 5 lbs and see how much it changes, if it's enough to matter to you.
What is more likely to happen is inches come off, the bodyfat % changes, along with a little weight, and that changes the goal more than just one by itself.
Shoot, some have lost no weight but many inches, causing the BF% to drop, and that actually increases their LBM, meaning they need to eat more. The majority have commented they were starting to get hungry then too.
As soon as body is done improving for their new exercise, then weight and fat drop.

So pick a valid weigh-in day, and every other week do your measurements too in case those change enough. Read over the tips under Your Results. Info there you need to know if you miss a workout.

paprad

Thanks heybales for both the replies. I think I will need to mull it over to see if I got it all figured out!

paprad

haybales, thanks again, i figured out the lifting-TDEG deficit issue that was confusing me

ashleybr1980

bump

jenifr818

This is a short form for the full document contained here:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/974888-in-place-of-a-road-map-2k13


The Road Map is simply a tool to find Body Fat%, BMR and TDEE.
All 3 items are important to understanding fat/weight loss.

Once you know these 3 numbers, you'll be able to manipulate nutrition and training to get to your next goal.

1) Body Fat%
Knowing the ratio of body fat to lean mass is crucial in understanding body composition.
The less fat you have, the leaner you'll look.
The more lean muscle you have, the better your definition (tone) will look.
Having ideal body fat is not only healthier for the individual but it also helps you look good naked!

Athletes (6-13% for men, 16-20% for women) 
<---Ideal area for Bulking
Fitness (14-17% for men, 21-24% for women) 

Acceptable (18-25% for men, 25-31% for women) 

Obese (25%+ for men, 32%+ for women)

The shocking part about BF% is most people who PM me numbers don't know how much fat they carry.
It's the most important part of figuring out the rest of your caloric intake.

Bottom Line: Buy a tape measurer or a set of Calipers and learn how to objectively track body fat while cutting/bulking.
The ultimate goal is to lose unwanted fat and maintain or even gain beautiful lean muscle.

Useful links:
http://www.fat2fitradio.com/tools/bf/
http://www.fat2fitradio.com/tools/mbf/
http://www.fat2fitradio.com/tools/cbbf/
Do all 3 BF Calcs and use the average number.
Write it down, you'll use it later!

2) BMR/RMR
Basal Metabolic Rate or Resting Metabolic Rate.
This covers all body functions outside of activity.
If you were in a coma and you were fed enough nutrients to keep you alive, Thats BMR.
Think "Baseline Calories" if you did absolutely nothing.
Sub-sedentary.
All vital organs are covered when eating BMR.

For those who like math, you'll find several different types of calculations for BMR.
1) Harris-Benedict formula: Overestimates in obese: Avoid this setting!
MEN: BMR = 66 + [13.7 x weight (kg)] + [5 x height (cm)] - [6.76 x age (years)]
WOMEN: BMR = 655 + [9.6 x weight (kg)] + [1.8 x height (cm)] - [4.7 x age (years)]

2) Mifflin-St Jeor: Overestimates needs especially in obese.
MEN: BMR = [9.99 x weight (kg)] + [6.25 x height (cm)] - [4.92 x age (years)] + 5
WOMEN: BMR = [9.99 x weight (kg)] + [6.25 x height (cm)] - [4.92 x age (years)] -1613)

3) Katch-McArdle: Accurate if BF% is known and is especially good in leaner individuals.
BMR = 370 + (21.6 x LBM)Where LBM = [total weight (kg) x (100 - bodyfat %)]/100

If you'd like to calculate on your own, you can get calculated TDEE using this chart:
Multiply BMR x Activity factor = TDEE.
1.2 = Sedentary (Little or no exercise + desk job)
1.3-1.4 = Lightly Active (Little daily activity & light exercise 1-3 days a week)
1.5-1.6 = Moderately Active (Moderately active daily life & Moderate exercise 3-5 days a week)
1.7-1.8 = Very Active (Physically demanding lifestyle & Hard exercise or sports 6-7 days a week)
1.9-2.0 = Extremely Active (Hard daily exercise or sports and physical job)

Realize that this isn't just about your training but your lifestyle as well.
Example: You work at a desk all day but come home and play with your children for an hour, lift weights 3x a week for an hour and jog 2mi every other day. In this example id use Moderate or possibly Active settings.

Heres a helpful link for figuring your BMR and TDEE:
http://www.fat2fitradio.com/tools/bmr/
Enter all pertinent info.
Make GOAL weight the same as CURRENT weight to get todays TDEE.

Bottom Line: Know what your base caloric needs are and stay above them if you are active.
Eating too low for extended periods of time may allow for weight loss, but you could still have high body fat.
Skinny-fat: http://foodtrainers.blogspot.com/2012/09/are-you-skinny-fat-find-out-why.html

Once you know your base "Comatose" calories you can move on to TDEE.

3) TDEE
Total Daily Energy Expenditure
This is the total amount of calories you burn in a 24hour period.
You wake up, brush your teeth, lift, run, play, work.....
You get the idea.
One thing I've noticed over the years is people underestimate activity.
They say "I'm sitting at my computer all day long so i'm sedentary!"
I'll ask "Workout routine?"
They say "Oh i run for 3 hours a day and do CrossFit all weekend long!"


If you sit all day and barely walk and dont workout, Sedentary.
If you workout 1-2x a week, Light.
If you workout 3-5x a week, Moderate.
If you workout 5+, active/very active.

Youll find these numbers at the bottom of the BMR page in Fat 2 Fit.
You can also use other calculators around the internet.

Once you have TDEE you can decide what to set MFP calories to.
I recommend -20% for individuals who are Obese and under.
-30% for individuals who are Obese and over.

Bottom Line: Be realistic with activity. If you are a marathon runner trying to take a few pounds off, don't use sedentary settings. First start with the top number that applies to you and stick with it for several weeks. If nutrition is right and activity is right, you should maintain eating TDEE. To lose fat, subtract calories. To gain LBM, add calories. Lift weights, walk, sleep and eat right.
Use your common sense.

Just in to let you know I find that .gif hilarious

automne77

Bump just doing this to come back to it

kaktan

wow this is a great post! thanks very much

prattiger65

Bump

Amberlynnek

Bump

pelpec

Bump

sissiluv

Stopped when the calculator told me that I had 70 pounds to lose. Pffffffft.

heybales

Stopped when the calculator told me that I had 70 pounds to lose. Pffffffft.

fat2fit calculator?

Then you incorrectly entered a goal weight instead of current weight as goal weight. He's using that site as general TDEE level guide, because it has bodyfat calc's there.

Use this instead for best estimates all around, and track progress.

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/717858-spreadsheet-bmr-tdee-and-deficit-calcs-macros-hrm

kellch

bumping just to add this to my topics :flowerforyou:

I think I should change my activity level :embarassed: I have sedentary but after my desk job, I go home, run around getting the kids' bags packed, get them dressed, work out for an hour (4-5 days a week...but I do log those calories burned), shower, sleep for 5 hours, get up, go get the girls, play with them, cook, clean, get the girls to bed, get ready for work, and run out the door...sooooo ummmmmmmm I guess I'm not really sedentary :laugh: Work is the only time I ever sit down :laugh:

Chasing a 2 year old around, cleaning, cooking, packing bags, taking care of my 3 month old, and getting ready for work probably would make me active, I guess. Then I log the calories burned for my workouts.

Sound about right?

RoseDarrett

Yes!!! Bump Bump!!

MizzEngelChen

Sooooo... either I put my activity level at low/ sedentary, log all my exercises and eat back the calories OR I calculate the TDEE taking into account all exercise I am doing and then not eat back exercise calories?

Isn't first method better for exercise irregularities?