Giant dude, 1 year testing, found true TDEE. Surprising!

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Replies

  • CoachReddy
    CoachReddy Posts: 3,949 Member
    here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Starvation_Experiment

    and what happened?

    and one of them chopped their own hand off.

    but yeah man, 1500 calories for a 6'2" man sounds just right.

    1) Semi-starvation lasted 24 weeks and consisted of: potatoes, rutabagas, turnips, bread and macaroni. Protein consumption of at least .8 grams per pound of bodyweight has been proven to prevent/slow muscle mass.

    2) each man was assigned specific work tasks, was expected to walk 22 miles each week. So the subjects walked 3 miles a day (assuming a 7 day work week) in addition to a job in which no hours were specified. Could've been 1 hour, or 12 hours. Naturally anyone walking 3 miles a day + working needs more calories. The average overweight american dieter drives everywhere and (generally) does not work a labor-intensive job.

    3) The "results" all describe physiological results, and only 1 physical: edema.

    In the link you provided, there is no mention of percentage of muscle mass lost. And even if there were, it would be largely irrelevant due to the lack of protein. Which (again) slows/prevents muscle mass lost.

    In the end the only thing we're arguing about is HOW MUCH mass is lost. Which, thanks to adequate protein consumption, can be preserved.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23645387
    Current research suggests that dietary protein supplementation can augment resistance exercise-mediated gains in skeletal muscle mass and strength and can preserve skeletal muscle mass during periods of diet-induced energy restriction.

    I have nothing else to say, I'm done here.

    so by eating more protein, you'll maintain your muscle mass at the expense of your psychological health. got it. makes sense. seems quite sustainable and healthy.

    hopefully you don't chop your own fingers off.

    good luck!
  • GetSoda
    GetSoda Posts: 1,267 Member
    I hate eating low calorie because then I -only- eat nutritious food. Sure, a gigantic chicken salad with an entire bell pepper and onion are great, but to get enough protein I could never just... have a snickers or like.. a tortilla.

    As to overestimating calories burned in exercise - again, those are GROSS calorie numbers, not net.
    I have very rarely, if ever, eaten exercise calories back (Except when I was gaining weight, and 3300 was gross calories.)
  • GetSoda
    GetSoda Posts: 1,267 Member
    Well. 1700 calories a day, gross, starting tomorrow. Here I go.
  • violettatx
    violettatx Posts: 230 Member
    I hate eating low calorie because then I -only- eat nutritious food. Sure, a gigantic chicken salad with an entire bell pepper and onion are great, but to get enough protein I could never just... have a snickers or like.. a tortilla.

    As to overestimating calories burned in exercise - again, those are GROSS calorie numbers, not net.
    I have very rarely, if ever, eaten exercise calories back (Except when I was gaining weight, and 3300 was gross calories.)

    You do know that there are low-carb, lowish-calorie, higher protein tortillas, right? Trader Joe's has some great ones. And you can always have a little dark chocolate on that many calories. It really isn't that bad. You can still meet your protein goals and not just eat chicken and veggies. You just need to do some research. Good luck!
  • Achrya
    Achrya Posts: 16,913 Member
    Well. 1700 calories a day, gross, starting tomorrow. Here I go.

    I eat about 1700 calories a day, it's not so bad.

    ...I, of course, am 5'4" and a woman. But still, it's not bad at all. I'm often full and satisfied; right now I'm trying to decide how to get in my last 500 without making myself feel sick.
  • CoachReddy
    CoachReddy Posts: 3,949 Member
    Well. 1700 calories a day, gross, starting tomorrow. Here I go.

    meh, science and medicine both say you need more cal, but... we'll see i guess. good luck
  • cordianet
    cordianet Posts: 534 Member
    Have you ever had your RMR tested? While the tests are not "perfect", they're a heck of a lot better than guessing. I have a feeling the problem may be types of food (you may have some allergies, etc.), or high sodium, etc. Also, for some people, what you eat does matter, but you have to start with an accurate understanding of what you're actually burning day to day.. In addition, while you may be doing great in your logging, most of the time when I see this, it's with people that are basically "estimating" and frankly are not very accurate in their logging. Use a scale and weigh your food. Try for a while to be as accurate as possible and see if that makes a difference.

    Best of luck!
  • Sharonks
    Sharonks Posts: 884 Member
    If you are weighing and measuring your food so your cal count is pretty accurate I would actually be concerned that there is something else going on. Maybe have your thyroid checked? I'm 4'10" and usually eat about 1600 to 1700 gross cals per day. I run about 20 miles per week and do body weight stuff. Granted, this ends up being maintenance for me but I also am currently off my thyroid meds since my last doc didn't think the huge goiter in my neck was an indication that something was wrong. I can't wait to get insurance so I can see another endo.
  • GetSoda
    GetSoda Posts: 1,267 Member
    If you are weighing and measuring your food so your cal count is pretty accurate I would actually be concerned that there is something else going on. Maybe have your thyroid checked? I'm 4'10" and usually eat about 1600 to 1700 gross cals per day. I run about 20 miles per week and do body weight stuff. Granted, this ends up being maintenance for me but I also am currently off my thyroid meds since my last doc didn't think the huge goiter in my neck was an indication that something was wrong. I can't wait to get insurance so I can see another endo.

    I did get my thyroid checked a while back actually. And testosterone/etc.
    Testosterone is low side of average, thyroid normal
    I am pre-diabetic. Or was 6 months ago.
  • DebbieLyn63
    DebbieLyn63 Posts: 2,654 Member
    Pre-diabetic means insulin resistant. This can cause your BMR to be lower than average. I feel your pain. Many of us simply have lower metabolisms than the online calculators say we should.
  • kms1320
    kms1320 Posts: 599 Member
    Since we are talking about and basing arguments of sample sizes of 1, here's one to blow your mind.. I lost at more than 2 pounds a week at 1900 starting at 6'4" and 300 pounds. Slowly I lost less and less per week, until the point where I was stuck at 218-220 for almost 6 weeks. So here's what I did, I kept the same training, and increased my calories to 2400. In the next 2 weeks I lost 5 pounds. There you go, scientific evidence! Eat more to weigh less! I also had better workouts, more energy, and saw strength increases.
  • CoachReddy
    CoachReddy Posts: 3,949 Member
    If you are weighing and measuring your food so your cal count is pretty accurate I would actually be concerned that there is something else going on. Maybe have your thyroid checked? I'm 4'10" and usually eat about 1600 to 1700 gross cals per day. I run about 20 miles per week and do body weight stuff. Granted, this ends up being maintenance for me but I also am currently off my thyroid meds since my last doc didn't think the huge goiter in my neck was an indication that something was wrong. I can't wait to get insurance so I can see another endo.

    I did get my thyroid checked a while back actually. And testosterone/etc.
    Testosterone is low side of average, thyroid normal
    I am pre-diabetic. Or was 6 months ago.

    that's a really important distinction that mister RiesigJay better take note of.
  • Dr_Gains
    Dr_Gains Posts: 81 Member
    thats because your leptin levels tanked over a prolonged period of being in a calorie deficient. your body is a whole lot smarter than what people wanna give it credit for. you going back to maintenance + was enough to refill and revitalize your whole body which thus gave you more energy for harder workouts so obviously more positive results. but on another note im huge into calorie cycling and carb cycling where i am always in a surplus on workout days and deficient rest days. averaging the calories out by the week is way better than keeping same amount everyday
  • Dr_Gains
    Dr_Gains Posts: 81 Member
    on another note i have done countless 24 hour and 36 hour fasts spread out randomly following a calorie surplus day with no muscle loss. people keep mistaking fat loss with muscle loss. a lot of people have this perception that they are bigger than what they truly are when in reality their lean body mass compared to fat ratio is horrid. 1 gram per pound of lean body mass of protein is more than enough to maintain your muscle while on a cut providing that you stay lifting and not overtraining with massive amounts of cardio and 6 day workout splits while cutting calories.
  • SleeplessinBerlin
    SleeplessinBerlin Posts: 513 Member
    bump to read later
  • BigGuy47
    BigGuy47 Posts: 1,768 Member
    I hate eating low calorie because then I -only- eat nutritious food.
    You can raise the calories without eating crap food. Almonds, peanut butter, avocados and pumpkin seeds are better high calorie choices than donuts or corn dogs.
  • DebbieLyn63
    DebbieLyn63 Posts: 2,654 Member
    I hate eating low calorie because then I -only- eat nutritious food.
    You can raise the calories without eating crap food. Almonds, peanut butter, avocados and pumpkin seeds are better high calorie choices than donuts or corn dogs.

    I don't think they are trying to increase their calorie level, just lamenting the fact that when you have to eat at a lower level, there isn't room for junk food, if you keep your macros in check.
  • GetSoda
    GetSoda Posts: 1,267 Member
    I hate eating low calorie because then I -only- eat nutritious food.
    You can raise the calories without eating crap food. Almonds, peanut butter, avocados and pumpkin seeds are better high calorie choices than donuts or corn dogs.

    I don't think they are trying to increase their calorie level, just lamenting the fact that when you have to eat at a lower level, there isn't room for junk food, if you keep your macros in check.

    Exactly.

    1700 calories and 220g of protein?
    That's about half the calories coming from straight protein. Which leaves a little room for the fat that comes with it. And some veggies.
  • CoachReddy
    CoachReddy Posts: 3,949 Member
    you don't need more than 192g of protein based on your numbers.

    only 30 grams diff, but it's 30 grams :)
  • goodtimezzzz
    goodtimezzzz Posts: 640 Member
    you should be eating 3500 to 5000 to lose weight and get ripped and muscular!!:)
    Kristian rocco
  • BigGuy47
    BigGuy47 Posts: 1,768 Member
    I don't think they are trying to increase their calorie level, just lamenting the fact that when you have to eat at a lower level, there isn't room for junk food, if you keep your macros in check.
    OK then, I misunderstood. My health has improved significantly since I eliminated junk foods.

    Are you using a food scale to make sure that you're on target with your tracking or are you estimating?

    If your tracking is accurate and consistent then I agree with the poster that said you should test your RMR.
  • RiesigJay
    RiesigJay Posts: 151 Member
    that's a really important distinction that mister RiesigJay better take note of.

    Alright, I must profess I don't know much about diabetes and why I should take note of the OP having pre diabetes. Reddy, I'll consider your advice, but please post sources because I don't believe what people say without backing what they say with fact.

    Seen CSI: Las Vegas? Remember how Grissom was? I'm a bit like that
    you should be eating 3500 to 5000 to lose weight and get ripped and muscular!!:)
    Kristian rocco

    Whoa whoa whoa... 3500 to 5000 calories? If you're a world class athlete or a humongous 350 pound bodybuilder, I might agree with that. For the average american 3500 to 5000 calories is how folks ended up here on the first place (read: fat and wanting to lose weight). Could you justify the means behind 3500 to 5000 calories?

    That'd be like eating 4 to 6 Jack In the Box "hot mess burgers" (which I love).
  • CoachReddy
    CoachReddy Posts: 3,949 Member
    that's a really important distinction that mister RiesigJay better take note of.

    Alright, I must profess I don't know much about diabetes and why I should take note of the OP having pre diabetes. Reddy, I'll consider your advice, but please post sources because I don't believe what people say without backing what they say with fact.

    Seen CSI: Las Vegas? Remember how Grissom was? I'm a bit like that
    you should be eating 3500 to 5000 to lose weight and get ripped and muscular!!:)
    Kristian rocco

    Whoa whoa whoa... 3500 to 5000 calories? If you're a world class athlete or a humongous 350 pound bodybuilder, I might agree with that. For the average american 3500 to 5000 calories is how folks ended up here on the first place (read: fat and wanting to lose weight). Could you justify the means behind 3500 to 5000 calories?

    That'd be like eating 4 to 6 Jack In the Box "hot mess burgers" (which I love).

    what if you're a 5'7" 135 pound 26 year old? I shoot for 3500 cal/day.

    as for pre-diabetes, it means that he needs to lose a lot of weight fast for medical reasons. you don't. it means he's dealing with a potential metabolic disorder which causes him to process calories differently. you're not.

    honestly, if you ate your TDEE (your actual TDEE) and just exercised, you'd be ripped in 6 months. I don't know why you're trying to gimmick your way around all this when it's so damn easy.
  • RiesigJay
    RiesigJay Posts: 151 Member
    what if you're a 5'7" 135 pound 26 year old? I shoot for 3500 cal/day.

    as for pre-diabetes, it means that he needs to lose a lot of weight fast for medical reasons. you don't. it means he's dealing with a potential metabolic disorder which causes him to process calories differently. you're not.

    honestly, if you ate your TDEE (your actual TDEE) and just exercised, you'd be ripped in 6 months. I don't know why you're trying to gimmick your way around all this when it's so damn easy.

    3500 calories - I ate that when I was doing Starting Strength. Fun, but I put on quite a bit of muscle mass and fat. 3500 is fine if you 1) have the body type to match that consumption 2) do enough exercise to burn it off. I could not expect a person who drives to work and works a 10 hour computer programming job and does 90 minutes of exercise a few times a week to lose weight at 3500 calories unless the guy is over 7' tall.

    OK, I'm interested in what you say about "potential metabolic disorder" and will run a google search (since you couldn't provide links).

    However, I still think TDEE is overestimated. I still think a drastic calorie cut with the appropriate protein consumption can preserve muscle mass (and sanity). I still think that fat loss starts at the table and exercise (particularly cardio) is overrated - see leangains and rippedbody.jp

    There's no "gimmick" in my method. My method is simply cutting calories. I don't promote a specific exercise or diet regimen. I will seek out and agree with folks who follow a similar diet or exercise regimen, but I don't go on other subforms saying how eating _____ is bad/pointless/whatever unlike other folks here.
  • myofibril
    myofibril Posts: 4,500 Member
    If he is pre diabetic then he needs to watch this blood sugar levels - therefore a close eye on carbs. A Paleo style / GI diet would actually be quite a good fit here. 100g or so on non training days, 150g or so on training days.

    I would also par down training to 2 -3 weights sessions a week which are short but intense and high quality - something like Stronglifts.

    I would limit cardio (unless he wants to eat more) but try and keep daily activity high.

    I predict he will be fine. If he feels crap he can always start raising calories.
  • Dr_Gains
    Dr_Gains Posts: 81 Member
    Everyones tdee is diff. We are all unique and there is no one size fits all in nutrition or strength training. My workout partner is same height as me but is finding it even hard to gain on 3000 Plus cals a day. Me I grow off 2400 easy. Its just the diff in our body types. Trial and error is what is needed and not no petty one week trial. A true 2-3 weeks is needed. In the end there are only 2 things that are important for body composition. Your actual body measurements taken with a myotape weekly and the amount of strength gained in the gym. I could care less what the scale says. As long as im growing or maintaining in my muscles and losing around the waste what the scale says becomes insignificant.
  • myofibril
    myofibril Posts: 4,500 Member
    Everyones tdee is diff. We are all unique and there is no one size fits all in nutrition or strength training.

    Agreed.

    I personally also think that working off BMR / RMR is a better idea as it is relatively constant and be professionally tested with relative ease. TDEE can be too variable for most individuals as it changes from day to day, week to week etc depending on personal circumstances.
  • GetSoda
    GetSoda Posts: 1,267 Member
    I have done a few blood sugar tests since then, and all have looked normal. Just something my doctor threw out a while ago. =)

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