Lift light or lift heavy? Lift smart!

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  • MiamiKid305
    MiamiKid305 Posts: 357
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    People who don't know anything about lifting giving other people who don't know about lifting advice =epicness
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    People who don't know anything about lifting giving other people who don't know about lifting advice =epicness

    Thanks for that valuable contribution.
  • MiamiKid305
    MiamiKid305 Posts: 357
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    Rogerrrr
  • CorvusCorax77
    CorvusCorax77 Posts: 2,536 Member
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    Sara...
    I love how you ask questions- it's like the Socratic method of teaching.... Encouraging people to ask the right questions. ...but I'm afraid your efforts are wasted on the "ladies you're gorgeous" guy. He doesn't even know that Egypt has its own Christian church.

    Woops--looks like someone took on the heavy lifts orthodoxy? Kind of like questioning creation theory in Kansas or denouncing the Koran in Egypt...

    A lot of women are convinced that low reps at heavy weights (say 5x5) is the *only* way to go. It's a black-white universe where only two kinds of weight-training exist (1) Something Mr. T would do (2) Something in the Olivia Newton John "Let's Get Physical" video.

    In other words, it's a logical fallacy--setting up a false dilemma. (Defended, by some posters, with another logical fallacy--attacking the speaker. You're lucky no one has pulled out Reductio Ad Gif Librarium yet though I'm sure that's on its way).

    Can't tell you how many back injuries I've seen on here from folks doing 5x5 deadlifts...or 4x3, 3x2 etc.

    You have ignited a Jihad!
  • foxro
    foxro Posts: 793 Member
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    To me the other issue is the balance between maintaining/gaining strength versus injury(tendonitis-arthritis, ligaments etc). I would love to see some research on where that balance is. What I have read is trial and error, but at my age(61) errors create longer recovery times than they would at a younger age
  • Granville_Cocteau
    Granville_Cocteau Posts: 209 Member
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    Sara...
    I love how you ask questions- it's like the Socratic method of teaching.... Encouraging people to ask the right questions. ...but I'm afraid your efforts are wasted on the "ladies you're gorgeous" guy. He doesn't even know that Egypt has its own Christian church.


    And Kansas has atheists, but neither detracts from my point that questioning the conventional wisdom of heavy lifting is akin to questioning a ruling orthodoxy or faith. While there are Christians in Egypt, they are heavily persecuted for questioning Islam.
    It is not by any means a Christian nation, and things may be worse following the 2011 revolution, which succeeded in putting an Islamist president in power.

    I don't mind your logical fallacy of attacking the speaker (questioning my intelligence) via a red herring argument (Egypt) rather than my point about heavy lifting. But let's get the facts straight, eh?
  • ArroganceInStep
    ArroganceInStep Posts: 6,239 Member
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    I don't mind your logical fallacy of attacking the speaker (questioning my intelligence) via a red herring argument (Egypt) rather than the my point about heavy lifting. But let's get the facts straight, eh?

    i-338d0379a341feab51d95f6e50b07a69-irony.gif
  • Granville_Cocteau
    Granville_Cocteau Posts: 209 Member
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    <---- 45 years old. Want to try again?

    What rep range do you think is best to retain LBM? Would this circuit training of yours include progressive loading? Do you not think you need progressive loading to maintain LBM? How many reps and sets is this circuit? What rep range do you think best to benefit bone density the most?

    So, because you are 45, and because you lift heavy, that means it is advisable for everyone over 40 to lift heavy frequently?

    As for your questions, nice try but I won't fall into that trap: Whatever program I happen to do may not be suitable for everyone of different ages, or for people with different goals. (If you want to go down that road, though, feel free). My general point was that, over 40, it takes the body a bit longer to recover from heavy lifting sessions so some trainers advise limiting the frequency of heavy lift days to avoid injury.
  • CorvusCorax77
    CorvusCorax77 Posts: 2,536 Member
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    ...questioning the conventional wisdom of heavy lifting is akin to questioning a ruling orthodoxy or faith.

    OOOOOOOOH! That was your point when you said he was starting a Jihad!!!! My bad, man! I was totes confused when everyone I know from Egypt is a part of the Egyptian church and has like zero issue saying what they think... and like, the fact that the word "jihad" means "struggle" and kinda didn't make any sense the way you used it.

    Dude. My bad.
  • CorvusCorax77
    CorvusCorax77 Posts: 2,536 Member
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    <---- 45 years old. Want to try again?

    What rep range do you think is best to retain LBM? Would this circuit training of yours include progressive loading? Do you not think you need progressive loading to maintain LBM? How many reps and sets is this circuit? What rep range do you think best to benefit bone density the most?

    So, because you are 45, and because you lift heavy, that means it is advisable for everyone over 40 to lift heavy frequently?

    As for your questions, nice try but I won't fall into that trap: Whatever program I happen to do may not be suitable for everyone of different ages, or for people with different goals. (If you want to go down that road, though, feel free). My general point was that, over 40, it takes the body a bit longer to recover from heavy lifting sessions so some trainers advise limiting the frequency of heavy lift days to avoid injury.

    And for some people it is over 35. For some 50. For some 12. For some 60.

    But let's just generalize that women over 40 have a particular issue that you personally are the specialist on.
  • Granville_Cocteau
    Granville_Cocteau Posts: 209 Member
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    The sad thing is, I don't disagree with the underlying point Op has as I understand it now. Lifting too heavy causing injuries is bad (tho even those of us who promote heavy lifting believe if you are being injured you need to lower the weight and fix your form).

    And there it is. Most of everything else that follows is just disagreement with subsequent posts and how the OP came across. Agree with the message; shoot the messenger. Interesting tactic.
  • CorvusCorax77
    CorvusCorax77 Posts: 2,536 Member
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    The sad thing is, I don't disagree with the underlying point Op has as I understand it now. Lifting too heavy causing injuries is bad (tho even those of us who promote heavy lifting believe if you are being injured you need to lower the weight and fix your form).

    And there it is. Most of everything else that follows is just disagreement with subsequent posts and how the OP came across. Agree with the message; shoot the messenger. Interesting tactic.

    I disagree with sexism and bigotry, no matter what their underlying point is.

    ETA: and even his underlying point was undermined by him referring to it as "light" lifting. My entire question from the get go was what do we mean when we say "light"? Because if we lower the weight and up the reps and have the same calculated ORM, in my opinion, it's still "lifting heavy" if your ORM is approaching "advanced."
  • trojanbb
    trojanbb Posts: 1,297 Member
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    The sad thing is, I don't disagree with the underlying point Op has as I understand it now. Lifting too heavy causing injuries is bad (tho even those of us who promote heavy lifting believe if you are being injured you need to lower the weight and fix your form).

    And there it is. Most of everything else that follows is just disagreement with subsequent posts and how the OP came across. Agree with the message; shoot the messenger. Interesting tactic.

    I disagree with sexism and bigotry, no matter what their underlying point is.

    ETA: and even his underlying point was undermined by him referring to it as "light" lifting. My entire question from the get go was what do we mean when we say "light"? Because if we lower the weight and up the reps and have the same calculated ORM, in my opinion, it's still "lifting heavy" if your ORM is approaching "advanced."

    The effect on tendons and CNS is vastly different, even if theoretical ORM is the same.. Exactly why some previous age comments I've seen are perfectly valid. Tendon and CNS recovery and strength declines as we age. Every advanced lifting forum is filled with topics on this subject. Aging powerlifters are always complaining of ruined tendons and impaired recovery. This is why most 40+ bodybuilders reduce weight and increase volume. Low rep weightlifting takes its toll, it's inevitable. A few sets of singles (1 rep max) is FAR more taxing on the CNS than a few sets of higher reps. Even if work done is exactly the same.

    That said, lifting heavy has some benefits that higher rep, higher volume training can't replace.
  • BusyRaeNOTBusty
    BusyRaeNOTBusty Posts: 7,166 Member
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    However, the vast majority of people here are just looking to cut fat while maintaining muscle, so in theory for that goal, one would seem generally better off w/ circuit training/higher reps with lower weights.

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-1.html
    As I’ve mentioned repeatedly on the site, the primary stimulus for muscle growth is progressive high tension overload (e.g. adding more weight to the bar over time). Without getting into a big old technical discussion of protein synthesis and breakdown here (you can read The Protein Book if you’re interested); I’ll simply say here that the high tension stimulus that builds muscle is the exact same high tension stimulus that will maintain muscle mass when you’re dieting.

    So perhaps you can guess what happens to muscle mass when you reduce weight on the bar to use higher reps and shorter rest intervals. When you remove the high tension stimulus, you remove the signal to build (or in the case of dieting, maintain) muscle mass. What do you think happens next? Right, muscles get smaller.
  • BusyRaeNOTBusty
    BusyRaeNOTBusty Posts: 7,166 Member
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    I do agree that 3-5 reps is rough on your body. I've actually stopped doing it, for now. I do 8-10. But 8-10 is still "heavy" lifting. It's not until you get to 15-20 reps that it becomes "endurance" as previously mentioned.

    However for beginners who are starting no where near their "genetic potential" and have quicker recovery, I don't think 5x5 is a bad place to start, but if they want to switch it to 3x8 instead, that's fine too, just keep the focus on compound movements.
  • CorvusCorax77
    CorvusCorax77 Posts: 2,536 Member
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    The sad thing is, I don't disagree with the underlying point Op has as I understand it now. Lifting too heavy causing injuries is bad (tho even those of us who promote heavy lifting believe if you are being injured you need to lower the weight and fix your form).

    And there it is. Most of everything else that follows is just disagreement with subsequent posts and how the OP came across. Agree with the message; shoot the messenger. Interesting tactic.

    I disagree with sexism and bigotry, no matter what their underlying point is.

    ETA: and even his underlying point was undermined by him referring to it as "light" lifting. My entire question from the get go was what do we mean when we say "light"? Because if we lower the weight and up the reps and have the same calculated ORM, in my opinion, it's still "lifting heavy" if your ORM is approaching "advanced."

    The effect on tendons and CNS is vastly different, even if theoretical ORM is the same.. Exactly why some previous age comments I've seen are perfectly valid. Tendon and CNS recovery and strength declines as we age. Every advanced lifting forum is filled with topics on this subject. Aging powerlifters are always complaining of ruined tendons and impaired recovery. This is why most 40+ bodybuilders reduce weight and increase volume. Low rep weightlifting takes its toll, it's inevitable. A few sets of singles (1 rep max) is FAR more taxing on the CNS than a few sets of higher reps. Even if work done is exactly the same.

    That said, lifting heavy has some benefits that higher rep, higher volume training can't replace.

    word.

    I don't disagree at all.

    My problem from the get go was "what do you mean by "light" weightlifting?" Because, ESPECIALLY when talking about women, we have been told things like "a woman should never lift more than 6 lbs." I just wanted some clarity on what that was. And I found it by researching the study where they defined the "light" lifting as being 3 sets of 20-30 reps at 30% ORM.
  • ArroganceInStep
    ArroganceInStep Posts: 6,239 Member
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    <---- 45 years old. Want to try again?

    What rep range do you think is best to retain LBM? Would this circuit training of yours include progressive loading? Do you not think you need progressive loading to maintain LBM? How many reps and sets is this circuit? What rep range do you think best to benefit bone density the most?

    So, because you are 45, and because you lift heavy, that means it is advisable for everyone over 40 to lift heavy frequently?

    As for your questions, nice try but I won't fall into that trap: Whatever program I happen to do may not be suitable for everyone of different ages, or for people with different goals. (If you want to go down that road, though, feel free). My general point was that, over 40, it takes the body a bit longer to recover from heavy lifting sessions so some trainers advise limiting the frequency of heavy lift days to avoid injury.

    And for some people it is over 35. For some 50. For some 12. For some 60.

    But let's just generalize that women over 40 have a particular issue that you personally are the specialist on.

    ^ That, and I'll post this again: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3117172/
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    <---- 45 years old. Want to try again?

    What rep range do you think is best to retain LBM? Would this circuit training of yours include progressive loading? Do you not think you need progressive loading to maintain LBM? How many reps and sets is this circuit? What rep range do you think best to benefit bone density the most?

    So, because you are 45, and because you lift heavy, that means it is advisable for everyone over 40 to lift heavy frequently?

    As for your questions, nice try but I won't fall into that trap: Whatever program I happen to do may not be suitable for everyone of different ages, or for people with different goals. (If you want to go down that road, though, feel free). My general point was that, over 40, it takes the body a bit longer to recover from heavy lifting sessions so some trainers advise limiting the frequency of heavy lift days to avoid injury.

    Where did I say that? You are the one who is advising of what is appropriate or not without context.

    Also. nice avoidance of the question. I like the way you give some vague advice and fail to bring a single bit of specificity into it. Also, if your general point was what you said it was, then why did you not say that rather than what you actually said? Not enough grandstanding?

    Telling someone to be careful of the frequency as they get older is very very different than telling them to do circuits, especially being very clear that you think 'circuits' will be best for most people but not even giving a vague explanation as to what this entails. I mean, you *could* say something like....'2 - 4 sets of 15 - 20, depending on the circuit and individual' - I mean I am sure you can word it in such a way as to not imply appropriate for everyone, couldn't you? For all I know, and anyone else for that matter, you are talking about 1 set of 100 for each 'lift'.
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    nvmd
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    The sad thing is, I don't disagree with the underlying point Op has as I understand it now. Lifting too heavy causing injuries is bad (tho even those of us who promote heavy lifting believe if you are being injured you need to lower the weight and fix your form).

    And there it is. Most of everything else that follows is just disagreement with subsequent posts and how the OP came across. Agree with the message; shoot the messenger. Interesting tactic.

    I disagree with sexism and bigotry, no matter what their underlying point is.

    ETA: and even his underlying point was undermined by him referring to it as "light" lifting. My entire question from the get go was what do we mean when we say "light"? Because if we lower the weight and up the reps and have the same calculated ORM, in my opinion, it's still "lifting heavy" if your ORM is approaching "advanced."

    Which was why I asked the question of what rep range and how many sets which was avoided. Without mention of those, any discussion is moot.

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