"Starvation mode", exercise calories, dillema?

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  • ladytinkerbell99
    ladytinkerbell99 Posts: 970 Member
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    Great read. Excellent information. Thanks for sharing. :flowerforyou:
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
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    i LOVE this post...

    I admit I stress over this almost daily. I worry I'm losing too much too fast, but then, I worry that I won't keep up with my average. Internal struggle for sure.

    as someone with about 80 pounds left to lose (44 down so far), how much of a deficit is safe?

    My TDEE is right around 2300-2400 I think (haven't checked it in the last week or 2).. I generally eat on average 1500 for 6 days, then a high/cheat day around 3000-4000 which puts me at around 1785 on average per day. This isn't a hard number, sometimes it's a little more, sometimes a little less.

    I have been doing this for nearly 5 months. I was on a roll for the first 4, losing an average of 10-11 lbs per month or so. Then last month, I hit a plateau or a stall for a few weeks. I had gone on vacation and was in a camping situation where I had very little control over my diet, reading labels, or weighing things, so have no idea what I ate other than trying to do my best. I ended up plateauing for about 4 weeks.

    Then, after reading I needed to do something different to break through it, I cut my average down to 1384 for 5 days, then ate 7000 over 2 days. As crazy as that sounds, it worked. within a few days I was down 3-4 lbs(I had played with one up and down during the stall).

    I am back to my average of 1500 ish/day with a high day, but sometimes cycle that between 1 high day, or 2 maintenance days. Whatever hits me that given week.

    Is doing this for 5 months going to cause me to face inevitable metabolic slow down? I really wish I didn't have to stress about it. If the deficit is ok, then I'll just keep going.

    My BF % (shudder) is 42.3 as of last check (wednesday).. I work with a personal trainer 3 x a week, mostly doing weight machines. I didn't take my BF% when I started at the end of March, but 10 weeks ago it was 45.5 so I know it was initially even higher.

    So my BF % is going down --- will update with a graph shortly.

    Please give me any advice on if I should worry about my progress or doing any damage. I am worried about disappointing my trainer if things stop, and if they do, he's already told me he will change my diet which I am horribly afraid of. I like what I am doing now (freedom to eat what I want - though I choose mostly healthy foods). :( thank you!!


    19992875_7701.jpg


    i can't get it to show any bigger :(

    I don't like giving a lot of specific advice in threads, just cuz people who it wasn't intended for end up reading it and thinking it's for everyone, but in your case, I think you're generally following an acceptable life path. I would gradually try to lower those 3000 to 4000 days to 2500 to 3000 days, which will make it easier for you to stay at a lower average without totally removing the concept of a higher calorie day. I think, generally speaking, with 80 lbs to lose you're probably fine with a 2 lb per week deficit (again this is a very vague assumption to be taken with a grain of salt) but remember, as your body fat goes down, your deficit must shrink as well, which will mean a smaller weight loss, some weeks you still may hit 2 lbs, others you may see no loss, this is the game we play. At the end for me, I had weeks where I lost 2, then weeks where I gained 3 then others where I lost nothing. That's just how our bodies are, if it was linear, it would be easy. But eventually science wins out (all other things being equal) and you'll lose what you need to.
  • Onederchic
    Onederchic Posts: 128 Member
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    Thanks and a bump :flowerforyou:
  • JenniBaby85
    JenniBaby85 Posts: 855 Member
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    Thank you! Finally!!!
  • mluanne33
    mluanne33 Posts: 70 Member
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    Bump for later reading
  • Aperene
    Aperene Posts: 9 Member
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    bump
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
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    As to the finer points of recognizing how many calories are "enough" for you. That's easy enough to estimate (with some impressision I admit, but it'll get you in the ballpark). Just find your approximate BMR (there's a ton of sites out there that do this, go to webMD and put metabolism calculator in, you'll find their tool for TDEE) and multiply by 25% and you'll get close to your TDEE.
    I posted this thread on my news feed and someone pointed out that they didn't understand what the 25% thing was for. I kind of glazed passed it under the assumption that (BMR+BMR*.25) was approximately your TDEE (a little more then sedentary?) so yes 25% would be closer to anyones TDEE. But since I'm not positive and since everyone has different activity levels and because I'm half wondering why 25, could you clarify for me? Thanks :)

    Your assumption is correct, 25 is a very generic average. Some people's BMR is closer to 80% of their TDEE, and others (more active folks, for instance a mail man) might have a 65% BMR. It's all about your activity level. Also some people genetically just have a higher body temperature, which can mean the difference between Thermogenesis being 5% of your TDEE and 8% of your TDEE.

    There are a ton of websites out there that tell you how to calculate your activity level, which you multiply times your BMR to find your TDEE.

    here's the first hit from a google search for activity level multiplier.
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=109911821&page=1

    that seems pretty much accurate to me. So google BMR calculator, get your BMR, then multiply by the number for you in the above website to get your TDEE (then add any out of band exercise to it for that specific day, FYI, MFP already does all this for you).

    But remember, TDEE is TOTAL, so if you do extra exercise outside your activity level, you must add that exercise to your TDEE to get the real number.
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
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    Thanx for posting. Hope the jerks on this site don't attack you too much. Lord knows I was all but eviscerated fo suggesting that starvation mode exists. Good luck.

    appreciate your concern, but after 5 years on here, and having the actual facts to back it up, I'm not concerned. :wink:
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
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    I enjoyed reading your post, and I concur mostly although I think some of the points can be up for interpretation depending on what study you go by. My frustration with "starvation mode" is that the term is used very loosely around here, and it's used in a judgmental "holier than thou" manner. What you said is right on for someone who is truly headed in that direction. A lot of people on here including myself eat below BMR and TDEE range at about 1000-1500 calories, and are not in starvation mode. I suppose real starvation mode does exist, but it's not something we see here in the USA very often other than people with ED's or chronic diseases, etc.

    It's impossible for someone with excess body fat, eating 1200 calories a day to go into any kind of "starvation mode." When you have plenty of fat stores to use, you are by no means starving (in the true meaning of the word). As long as you have fat to burn, your body will use it for energy. Balancing muscle and fat loss is the challenge though. Personally, I've avoided this b/c I eat a high protein and low starch diet and jogging. And I had my LFT and KFT checked 3 weeks ago and they are in normal range. Not saying this is the case for everyone, but it's how I found balance.

    So, the misuse of this term is one of the factors that hindered my weight loss for YEARS and I know it has affected other people too. It was because I felt like I had to eat more to avoid the dreaded starvation mode, so therefore I should have a "cheat day" where I ate anything and everything so as to "restart my metabolism." Also, having it be the end of the day and craving a bowl of cereal and then telling myself I had to have it b/c I had only had 1100 calories that day so I needed to eat even though I wasn't particularly hungry.

    I believe that people who don't have ED related thought processes can balance out calorie deficits just fine if they listen to their body. We all don't want to be extremely hungry and uncomfortable all day with no energy, so we find a strategy within ourselves to make it work using common sense.

    While I respect your opinion, I don't agree, personally I feel that people enter starvation mode somewhat often, I agree that the term is misused on here and thrown around with wild abandon, but I don't agree that it's some almost never seen phenomenon.

    I've seen the statement you wrote "It's impossible for someone with excess body fat, eating 1200 calories a day to go into any kind of "starvation mode."" before, but I don't agree with it. maybe you rushed the statement and meant to say that people who are morbidly obese?

    I mean, a woman with 25% body fat has excess body fat, not a lot, but she does. And if she's 5'11" and active, then eating 1200 calories is probably far to low, considering her TDEE is probably around 3000.

    Now, someone who's morbidly obese would have a hard time reaching a point where they will enter starvation mode, but that's because their surface area of adipose fat is so large that the available energy is large enough to satisfy most of the body's caloric needs.
  • WaterBunnie
    WaterBunnie Posts: 1,370 Member
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    "Quick facts to help you:
    -The more body fat you have, the greater your deficit can be. "



    Makes interesting reading. I still have half my body weight to lose, does that mean a higher than 1000 calorie deficit (from uneaten exercise calories) wouldn't hurt? I ask because I plateau sometimes even when I'm just 500 calories over this for the entire week which strikes me as ridiculous!
  • pitbullmama
    pitbullmama Posts: 454 Member
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    bump
  • nc90
    nc90 Posts: 83 Member
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    Thank you for this post! Very easy to understand, and totally lined up with a lot of things I learned in Biochem my junior year in college :)
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
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    "Quick facts to help you:
    -The more body fat you have, the greater your deficit can be. "



    Makes interesting reading. I still have half my body weight to lose, does that mean a higher than 1000 calorie deficit (from uneaten exercise calories) wouldn't hurt? I ask because I plateau sometimes even when I'm just 500 calories over this for the entire week which strikes me as ridiculous!

    if you're truly above 50% body fat (which, seeing your picture, I question), then your deficit could probably be higher than 1000, although I don't normally recommend that type of diet, as even though it's possible, it's not really going to help. Part of weight loss is allowing your body to adjust to the different eating, creating a giant deficit is also a mental thing, you need to find a deficit that allows you to lose weight while also allows you to live a somewhat normal and healthy life, otherwise it's just a "diet" and not a nutritional program that's meant to gradually ease you into a new lifestyle (which is what you really should be trying to do).
  • joannbrunton
    joannbrunton Posts: 93 Member
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    heard part of this before....it was very informative.... am trying to save to "my topics" by replying so that i can re-read when needed. thank you.
  • tmauck4472
    tmauck4472 Posts: 1,785 Member
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    So according to you I should be well.....dead by now. Strange, my heart is still beating, I have a ton of energy, I'm still losing at a steady pace, My hair has not fallen out. I may have over estimated my exercise, but I know I have not under estimated my calorie intake because I weigh my food and look on several different places before I decide on which of MFP amounts I use so that I'm pretty damn accurate with that. But the exercise calories burned doesn't matter since I don't eat those back anyways. I've been eating low for 5 months. I know someone who ate low for 9 months and she's fine matter of fact I know several people who have eaten low for over a year and they are just fine, one of which has heart troubles to begin with and she's just fine actually she real good. I don't have a lot of muscle strength, but I didn't have that when I was 112 lbs heavier either and their is no change there. I don't have as many headaches, but I'm assuming thats because I don't eat as much processed foods and don't eat fast food or even eat out much so I'm not getting all that chemical stuff in my system. I don't want people to eat the way I do, I do this for me, You do what you do for you.

    Your post does not convice me to eat higher calories, it does not convince me that Starvation Mode isn't a myth. Yes I know I'm stubborn but you've not shown me anything that I can't counter with things I believe.

    It's all a matter of opinon, I have my own and you have yours..
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
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    So according to you I should be well.....dead by now. Strange, my heart is still beating, I have a ton of energy, I'm still losing at a steady pace, My hair has not fallen out. I may have over estimated my exercise, but I know I have not under estimated my calorie intake because I weigh my food and look on several different places before I decide on which of MFP amounts I use so that I'm pretty damn accurate with that. But the exercise calories burned doesn't matter since I don't eat those back anyways. I've been eating low for 5 months. I know someone who ate low for 9 months and she's fine matter of fact I know several people who have eaten low for over a year and they are just fine, one of which has heart troubles to begin with and she's just fine actually she real good. I don't have a lot of muscle strength, but I didn't have that when I was 112 lbs heavier either and their is no change there. I don't have as many headaches, but I'm assuming thats because I don't eat as much processed foods and don't eat fast food or even eat out much so I'm not getting all that chemical stuff in my system. I don't want people to eat the way I do, I do this for me, You do what you do for you.

    Your post does not convice me to eat higher calories, it does not convince me that Starvation Mode isn't a myth. Yes I know I'm stubborn but you've not shown me anything that I can't counter with things I believe.

    It's all a matter of opinon, I have my own and you have yours..

    Not sure I ever asked for a counter to the case. But if you feel you must. please post all your numbers, including your starting weight, your current weight, your height, age, activity level, any medical conditions you may have, Your body fat %, and your waist to hip ratio. Because just making a statement like you have is relatively useless. I don't know any of your stats, so not only can I not put any context to it, neither can anyone else.

    And for the record, I'm glad you've found a way to lose the weight, that's fantastic, and you deserve credit for it, which I freely give. But again, without the whole story, it's hard to even carry on a conversation.
  • Lazygal53
    Lazygal53 Posts: 294 Member
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    bump
  • LaMujerMasBonitaDelMundo
    LaMujerMasBonitaDelMundo Posts: 3,634 Member
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  • LaMujerMasBonitaDelMundo
    LaMujerMasBonitaDelMundo Posts: 3,634 Member
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    So according to you I should be well.....dead by now. Strange, my heart is still beating, I have a ton of energy, I'm still losing at a steady pace, My hair has not fallen out. I may have over estimated my exercise, but I know I have not under estimated my calorie intake because I weigh my food and look on several different places before I decide on which of MFP amounts I use so that I'm pretty damn accurate with that. But the exercise calories burned doesn't matter since I don't eat those back anyways. I've been eating low for 5 months. I know someone who ate low for 9 months and she's fine matter of fact I know several people who have eaten low for over a year and they are just fine, one of which has heart troubles to begin with and she's just fine actually she real good. I don't have a lot of muscle strength, but I didn't have that when I was 112 lbs heavier either and their is no change there. I don't have as many headaches, but I'm assuming thats because I don't eat as much processed foods and don't eat fast food or even eat out much so I'm not getting all that chemical stuff in my system. I don't want people to eat the way I do, I do this for me, You do what you do for you.

    Your post does not convice me to eat higher calories, it does not convince me that Starvation Mode isn't a myth. Yes I know I'm stubborn but you've not shown me anything that I can't counter with things I believe.

    It's all a matter of opinon, I have my own and you have yours..
    That's because you STILL have a lot of weight to lose which why you can keep up with a large deficit but as you get smaller, you'll eventually reach your plateau. I supposed you didn't read the whole post because at the bottom part, it does stated there that having more body fat means you can carry on with a larger deficit.

    Don't compare yourself with other people here especially those of us who weigh less than you are.
  • tmauck4472
    tmauck4472 Posts: 1,785 Member
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    So according to you I should be well.....dead by now. Strange, my heart is still beating, I have a ton of energy, I'm still losing at a steady pace, My hair has not fallen out. I may have over estimated my exercise, but I know I have not under estimated my calorie intake because I weigh my food and look on several different places before I decide on which of MFP amounts I use so that I'm pretty damn accurate with that. But the exercise calories burned doesn't matter since I don't eat those back anyways. I've been eating low for 5 months. I know someone who ate low for 9 months and she's fine matter of fact I know several people who have eaten low for over a year and they are just fine, one of which has heart troubles to begin with and she's just fine actually she real good. I don't have a lot of muscle strength, but I didn't have that when I was 112 lbs heavier either and their is no change there. I don't have as many headaches, but I'm assuming thats because I don't eat as much processed foods and don't eat fast food or even eat out much so I'm not getting all that chemical stuff in my system. I don't want people to eat the way I do, I do this for me, You do what you do for you.

    Your post does not convice me to eat higher calories, it does not convince me that Starvation Mode isn't a myth. Yes I know I'm stubborn but you've not shown me anything that I can't counter with things I believe.

    It's all a matter of opinon, I have my own and you have yours..

    Not sure I ever asked for a counter to the case. But if you feel you must. please post all your numbers, including your starting weight, your current weight, your height, age, activity level, any medical conditions you may have, Your body fat %, and your waist to hip ratio. Because just making a statement like you have is relatively useless. I don't know any of your stats, so not only can I not put any context to it, neither can anyone else.

    And for the record, I'm glad you've found a way to lose the weight, that's fantastic, and you deserve credit for it, which I freely give. But again, without the whole story, it's hard to even carry on a conversation.

    but you said it doesn't matter, this applies to everyone or did I read that wrong? And you didn't ask for a counter but I'm trying to understand how I'm supposed to have all these problems and I don't. You can take this private if you want. I'm just trying to understand your logic.

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