"Starvation mode", exercise calories, dillema?

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Replies

  • geekyjock76
    geekyjock76 Posts: 2,720 Member
    Most research will use the term "semi-starvation" in their essays. But, it's as you say: people are correlating the wrong physiological responses to the chronic maintenance of a caloric decrement and, perhaps, utilizing their understanding - or misunderstanding - to apply to why they plateau.

    Unfortunately, there aren't many studies that have duplicated the Minnesota Experiment because, quite frankly, very few people would volunteer to participate in a study which delegated them to being locked in a compound for 6 months as well as experience the undesirable outcomes on ones well-being.

    One of the few that did carry on the above experiment and actually looked into the reregulation of body composition during weight recovery is aptly entitled, Autoregulation of body composition during weight recovery in human: the Minnesota Experiment revisited. This is the abstract:
    Abstract
    OBJECTIVES:
    To gain insights into the control systems underlying human variability in the regulation of body composition during weight recovery, as well as the disproportionate recovery of fat relative to lean tissue, the classical Minnesota Experiment conducted on 32 men subjected to long-term semi-starvation and refeeding was revisited with the following objectives: (1) to determine whether the control of energy-partitioning between lean and fat tissues during weight loss and weight recovery is an individual characteristic, and if a predictor can be statistically identified, (2) to determine whether the reduction in thermogenesis during weight loss persists during weight recovery, and underlies the disproportionate recovery of fat tissue and (3) to integrate the control of energy-partitioning and that of thermogenesis in order to explain the pattern of lean and fat tissue mobilisation and deposition during weight loss and weight recovery.
    METHODS:
    Individual data on body weight, body fat, fat-free-mass (FFM), and basal metabolic rate (BMR), assessed during the control baseline period (i.e. prior to weight loss), at the end of 24 weeks of semi-starvation, and at the end of a 12 week period of restricted refeeding, were used to calculate the following parameters: (i) a quantitative index of energy-partitioning, the P-ratio, defined as the proportion of body energy mobilised as protein during weight loss, or as the proportion of body energy deposited as protein during weight recovery, (ii) a quantitative index of changes in thermogenesis, defined as the change in BMR adjusted for FFM (or for both FFM and fat mass) and (iii) the degree of replenishment of fat and FFM compartments, defined as the recovery of body fat and FFM (during refeeding) as a percentage of that lost during semi-starvation.
    RESULTS:
    This re-analysis indicates the following: (i) a large inter-individual variability in P-ratio during both weight loss and weight recovery, but for a given individual, the P-ratio during refeeding is strongly correlated with the P-ratio during semi-starvation, (ii) body composition during the control period is the most important predictor of variability in P-ratio, such that the higher the initial % body fat, the lower the proportion of energy mobilised as protein, and hence the greater the propensity to mobilise fat during semi-starvation and to subsequently deposit fat during refeeding and (iii) at week 12 of refeeding, the change in adjusted BMR is found to be reduced by a magnitude which is inversely proportional to the degree of fat recovery, but is unrelated to the degree of FFM recovery. A quantitative relationship is derived between the P-ratio during refeeding, the % fat recovery, and the P-ratio during semi-starvation.
    CONCLUSIONS:
    Evidence is presented here suggesting that (i) human variability in the pattern of lean and fat tissue deposition during weight recovery is to a large extent determined by individual variations in the control of energy-partitioning, for which the initial % body fat is the most important predictor and (ii) the disproportionate gain in fat relative to lean tissue during weight recovery is contributed by a reduction in thermogenesis (i.e. increased efficiency of food utilization) for accelerating specifically the replenishment of the fat stores. These control systems, operating via energy-partitioning and thermogenesis, have been integrated into a compartmental model for the regulation of body composition during underfeeding/refeeding, and can be used to explain the individual pattern of lean and fat tissue deposition during weight recovery in situations ranging from the rehabilitation after malnutrition to the relapse of obesity.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8696417
  • jaz2099
    jaz2099 Posts: 2 Member
    Ahh, ok, understood. Thanks for the clarification, very appreciated.
  • debsclio
    debsclio Posts: 24
    Fantastic Read.
  • alijane9
    alijane9 Posts: 67 Member
    bump to read later. Looks both interesting and useful. Thanks
  • toddclare
    toddclare Posts: 2
    Bump
  • rachmass1
    rachmass1 Posts: 470 Member
    Bump for more detailed read on OP
  • jenneal89
    jenneal89 Posts: 243
    I always wondered why people said there was no such thing as starvation mode because there clearly is. I didnt know so much detail about the stages tho
  • x_JT_x
    x_JT_x Posts: 364
    Hadn't seen this post before. Thanks for shedding some light on the matter.
  • ballerina454
    ballerina454 Posts: 73 Member
    Bump, I want to read though this all later.
  • BamaBreezeNSaltAire
    BamaBreezeNSaltAire Posts: 966 Member
    ****LIKE****
  • Emili03
    Emili03 Posts: 164 Member
    BUMP! Thanks so much for the info! I have done so many super low cal diets in the past and eventually gained it all back plus some. This time, I have been making more gradual changes and while I started with a low 1200 cal diet in Feb, when I had 80+ lbs. to lose, right now when I have 22 lbs. to lose, I typically eat about 1600 cals (BMR is around 1500 since body fat% is still fairly high.) I have learned so much from this site. I just WISH I had never screwed up my metabolism and increased my body fat by losing lean muscle mass etc. on starvation diets in my teens and early 20's!
  • VogtAndrea
    VogtAndrea Posts: 236
    Bump
  • paperducks
    paperducks Posts: 56
    I'm proof that starvation mode exists. I lost close to 60lbs the right way by eating rougly 1400 calories and doing moderate exercise. When my weight loss slowed I began eating 1200 calories and burned 800 6 days a week (only netting 400). I became obsessed with the scale and the numbers that it showed. With all that hard work I only dropped only 10lbs. This struggle continued for about four months and then I noticed my hair was thinning, I was extremely tired, and my period had stopped. I realised this was abnormal and that I should not be going through such a struggle to get healthy. So about a month ago I ate more. I made sure to net at least 1200 cals a day and gained (wait for it) 12lbs in less than two weeks! Then I upped my calories to NET at 1400 two weeks ago and now I've finally stopped putting on weight. I feel so much better and have way more energy. A few months ago I went to see a dr and she said my TSH levels were on the low side and borderlined the normal range. Last week I had more blood drawn and it showed a massive improvement in my TSH levels (T3 and T4) :smile: Thank you, Banks, for bringing this informative and scary realisation to the attention of MFPals.

    Wishing you all a happy and healthy weight loss!
  • Annafly3
    Annafly3 Posts: 63
    bump
  • staceypunk
    staceypunk Posts: 924 Member
    Thank you, well written and easy to understand the way you have laid it out. I am brand new to all this stuff so it's appreciated.
  • taydensmom5
    taydensmom5 Posts: 4
    I'm proof that starvation mode exists. I lost close to 60lbs the right way by eating rougly 1400 calories and doing moderate exercise. When my weight loss slowed I began eating 1200 calories and burned 800 6 days a week (only netting 400). I became obsessed with the scale and the numbers that it showed. With all that hard work I only dropped only 10lbs. This struggle continued for about four months and then I noticed my hair was thinning, I was extremely tired, and my period had stopped. I realised this was abnormal and that I should not be going through such a struggle to get healthy. So about a month ago I ate more. I made sure to net at least 1200 cals a day and gained (wait for it) 12lbs in less than two weeks! Then I upped my calories to NET at 1400 two weeks ago and now I've finally stopped putting on weight. I feel so much better and have way more energy. A few months ago I went to see a dr and she said my TSH levels were on the low side and borderlined the normal range. Last week I had more blood drawn and it showed a massive improvement in my TSH levels (T3 and T4) :smile: Thank you, Banks, for bringing this informative and scary realisation to the attention of MFPals.

    Wishing you all a happy and healthy weight loss!

    I'm so glad you posted this. I've wondered for awhile now if I wasn't getting enough calories, I'm thinking I'm not. I'll be slowly upping my calories. Thanks!
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
    I'm proof that starvation mode exists. I lost close to 60lbs the right way by eating rougly 1400 calories and doing moderate exercise. When my weight loss slowed I began eating 1200 calories and burned 800 6 days a week (only netting 400). I became obsessed with the scale and the numbers that it showed. With all that hard work I only dropped only 10lbs. This struggle continued for about four months and then I noticed my hair was thinning, I was extremely tired, and my period had stopped. I realised this was abnormal and that I should not be going through such a struggle to get healthy. So about a month ago I ate more. I made sure to net at least 1200 cals a day and gained (wait for it) 12lbs in less than two weeks! Then I upped my calories to NET at 1400 two weeks ago and now I've finally stopped putting on weight. I feel so much better and have way more energy. A few months ago I went to see a dr and she said my TSH levels were on the low side and borderlined the normal range. Last week I had more blood drawn and it showed a massive improvement in my TSH levels (T3 and T4) :smile: Thank you, Banks, for bringing this informative and scary realisation to the attention of MFPals.

    Wishing you all a happy and healthy weight loss!

    Wow, a scary but very enlightening story. I'm very glad that you found out what was wrong, and while I don't wish this on anyone, I'm very grateful that you could share it with everyone, your case is more extreme than many in that a 400 calorie net will bring on symptoms much faster than most on MFP will experience. But it's the same process, and it's an eye opener. While clinically I understand the symptoms and issues that come from long term underfeeding, to have a real person, a member, actually confirm the symptoms and possible ramifications of it is far more powerful than anything I could write.

    Best wishes for you, and good luck moving forward! I may hit you up to other members if the symptoms are questioned in the future if that's ok with you. These types of stories can sometimes help people understand things that straight facts and documentation won't.


    -Banks
  • Marla64
    Marla64 Posts: 23,120 Member
    I'm proof that starvation mode exists. I lost close to 60lbs the right way by eating rougly 1400 calories and doing moderate exercise. When my weight loss slowed I began eating 1200 calories and burned 800 6 days a week (only netting 400). I became obsessed with the scale and the numbers that it showed. With all that hard work I only dropped only 10lbs. This struggle continued for about four months and then I noticed my hair was thinning, I was extremely tired, and my period had stopped. I realised this was abnormal and that I should not be going through such a struggle to get healthy. So about a month ago I ate more. I made sure to net at least 1200 cals a day and gained (wait for it) 12lbs in less than two weeks! Then I upped my calories to NET at 1400 two weeks ago and now I've finally stopped putting on weight. I feel so much better and have way more energy. A few months ago I went to see a dr and she said my TSH levels were on the low side and borderlined the normal range. Last week I had more blood drawn and it showed a massive improvement in my TSH levels (T3 and T4) :smile: Thank you, Banks, for bringing this informative and scary realisation to the attention of MFPals.

    Wishing you all a happy and healthy weight loss!

    Your story is identical to mine...... Except my cycle never altered. Everything else is the same. I was finally diagnosed with Hashimoto's....my thyroid is fried. I'd taken off nearly 50, eating 1200 and not eating back any exercise calories for over 18 months. When I decided to up the calories a bit to 1400, the weight began to pile back on.

    I'd shared my story via my own thread over a year ago....some people will heed the warning, others will scoff.....but it's very, very real.
  • funkycamper
    funkycamper Posts: 998 Member
    I had never heard the term "starvation myth" until I saw this post. But I was so put off by the third paragraph that I didn't want to read the rest - mainly because paragraph 3 was so combative and judgey.

    So I googled "starvation myth" and found out some really interesting information.

    I liked this post - http://fattyfightsback.blogspot.com/2009/03/mtyhbusters-starvation-mode.html

    So many opinions on this but as we are often told, we must do what we think is right for ourselves.

    And she basically backtracks that post with this one:
    http://fattyfightsback.blogspot.com/2012/07/mythbusters-starvation-mode-revisited.html#more

    In other words, she admits that too low of calorie eating over a long enough of a time frame to get you to a loss of 10% will kick you into Famine Mode. Same thing as Starvation Mode.

    So your link to her post is moot as any kind of oppositional evidence.
  • Lindacharp
    Lindacharp Posts: 36
    Thank you from a gal that believes in all your talking about. I'm just starting again. And eating healthy is the way to go. Fruit instead of cake and cookies. LOL. Fruit didn't put me in this situation but trying to keep up with cookie monster did.

    Again thank you.
  • funkycamper
    funkycamper Posts: 998 Member
    Just want to say thanks for yet another excellent, educational post, Banks.
  • Polly758
    Polly758 Posts: 623 Member
    Starvation mode makes me think of Audrey Hepburn, who suffered from malnutrition during her childhood (during the Nazi occupation of the Netherlands) and was damaged to the extent that she had to give up a career in ballet.

    I mean she turned out alright :) But her being very skinny makes me think of women who want to be like her and don't realize she was literally starved as a child.
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
    You're very welcome guys. I really appreciate all the great comments.
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
    I had never heard the term "starvation myth" until I saw this post. But I was so put off by the third paragraph that I didn't want to read the rest - mainly because paragraph 3 was so combative and judgey.

    So I googled "starvation myth" and found out some really interesting information.

    I liked this post - http://fattyfightsback.blogspot.com/2009/03/mtyhbusters-starvation-mode.html

    So many opinions on this but as we are often told, we must do what we think is right for ourselves.

    And she basically backtracks that post with this one:
    http://fattyfightsback.blogspot.com/2012/07/mythbusters-starvation-mode-revisited.html#more

    In other words, she admits that too low of calorie eating over a long enough of a time frame to get you to a loss of 10% will kick you into Famine Mode. Same thing as Starvation Mode.

    So your link to her post is moot as any kind of oppositional evidence.

    Yes, I find this post rather amusing since it's pretty much a reversal of her prior post. Although some of her information is purely anecdotal (which she admits) and not what I follow as a plateau pattern (and how to avoid it). Also she completely dismisses weight gain possibilities while in starvation mode. She acknowledges that the metabolic rate lowers while in starvation mode but doesn't account for someone eating what they THINK is still a deficit but is actually more than their lowered metabolism (thus weight gain would be possible even if you eat above what your metabolic rate WOULD be if your body were reacting normally).
  • chicbuc
    chicbuc Posts: 634 Member
    Excellent information that I would love to slap some people upside the head with...er...I mean I wish everyone would read this.
  • suzu_2
    suzu_2 Posts: 311 Member
    REALLY Good post - and as it happens a very timely wake-up call for me. I just logged on this morning looking for advice because I have staarted losing hair at an alarming rate... wonder what else I am losing that is less obvious. Think I will up my calories and pay more attention to the protein and fats in my diet.
  • jerber160
    jerber160 Posts: 2,607 Member
    bump
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
    REALLY Good post - and as it happens a very timely wake-up call for me. I just logged on this morning looking for advice because I have staarted losing hair at an alarming rate... wonder what else I am losing that is less obvious. Think I will up my calories and pay more attention to the protein and fats in my diet.

    just be aware that yes, hair loss is a tell-tail of a metabolic shutdown (early stages) but is also a symptom of various other issues as well. I don't know your situation, so can't make any comments (I'm not a medical professional anyway, and really can't even begin to diagnose these types of issue).

    Side note, as I mentioned in the original post, going from extremely low calories, to something approaching maintenance WILL cause weight gain unless it's handled very slowly (over the course of many weeks or even two or more months), so don't be discouraged if this happens. Usually in the situation of extreme starvation mode I tell people to gradually "reset", then give it a month to settle before trying again. Yes I realize this can mean 2 to 3 months of little or no weight loss, but the alternative is fighting not only health issues, but long term weight fluctuation as well. Compared with that, 2 or 3 months is nothing.
  • oursong1812
    oursong1812 Posts: 24 Member
    Bump
  • Lyra89
    Lyra89 Posts: 674 Member
    Great post! So can somebody tell me how much I should be eating based on this?

    BMR = 1400.

    I'm 23, 5'5 female, work out about four times per week for 1 hour & am lightly active.

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