High rep, low weight has to be worth something, right?
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um.. no.. no studies say this..The most recent studies are saying that low weight/high rep is as effective as high weight/low rep as long as you work your muscles to exhaustion, regardless of which you choose.0 -
The most recent studies are saying that low weight/high rep is as effective as high weight/low rep as long as you work your muscles to exhaustion, regardless of which you choose.
Lulz
Lulz right back at you. Look it up.
Oh that's right, someone, somewhere wrote it and published it on the net. I forget that means that it's true. Meanwhile, everybody actually involved in strength training for any amount of time knows that it's complete hogwash. I love "recent studies" arguments. Never fails to amuse me. I don't even need to read the Sunday comics after this one
What is "Low weight"
Isn't it different for everyone?
There are benefits to training in the high rep range as long as there is progression.
"As long as there is progression". Sure, that's exactly the problem. Doing lots of high rep work is fine, it's better than sitting on the couch. It's good for just getting started and learning the moves and conditioning the body. However, doing high rep work does little for building strength. This means that progression stalls out very quickly. Then you get stuck doing the same weight forever. The whole goal of strength training is progression and high rep training is not conducive to this goal at all.0 -
My understanding is that mid and high reps will encourage the muscle to become engorged with blood (pumped) and cause the muscle fibres to split more (shredding) and then in recvery time the muscle increases in size because there are now more muscle fibres and more blood capillaries, whereas in lifting heavy the weight is carried across the muscle but also more on the connective tendons and the lifting is over a shorter period of time and a longer rest period between sets set so there is less blood pumping and less cardio effect.
I was weightlifting about twenty=odd years ago and I remember the weightligters were always more slight than the bodybuilders but they could handle far more weight with good form.
It all depends on what your goal is - endurance, visual development or strength, but any exercise is better than wht I'm doing right now - sitting typing on a forum! I'm off to paint my shed.0 -
The most recent studies are saying that low weight/high rep is as effective as high weight/low rep as long as you work your muscles to exhaustion, regardless of which you choose.
Lulz
Lulz right back at you. Look it up.
Oh that's right, someone, somewhere wrote it and published it on the net. I forget that means that it's true. Meanwhile, everybody actually involved in strength training for any amount of time knows that it's complete hogwash. I love "recent studies" arguments. Never fails to amuse me. I don't even need to read the Sunday comics after this one
What is "Low weight"
Isn't it different for everyone?
There are benefits to training in the high rep range as long as there is progression.
"As long as there is progression". Sure, that's exactly the problem. Doing lots of high rep work is fine, it's better than sitting on the couch. It's good for just getting started and learning the moves and conditioning the body. However, doing high rep work does little for building strength. This means that progression stalls out very quickly. Then you get stuck doing the same weight forever. The whole goal of strength training is progression and high rep training is not conducive to this goal at all.
You said, " However, doing high rep work does little for building strength. This means that progression stalls out very quickly."
Progression does not always = strength.
Think of the many ways one can progress. Strength, endurance, hypertrophy, fat loss, calorie burning, more volume, shorter rest periods, longer intervals, etc.
So you can't assume that everyone is training for building strength.
This is MFP... most people just want to look better, feel better etc.
It's best to think about the possibilities, using the tools properly. High reps are a tool, they aren't for everyone, but a smart trainee can use them in a program with great results -- set a goal and shoot for it!!0 -
The most recent studies are saying that low weight/high rep is as effective as high weight/low rep as long as you work your muscles to exhaustion, regardless of which you choose.
Lulz
Lulz right back at you. Look it up.
Oh that's right, someone, somewhere wrote it and published it on the net. I forget that means that it's true. Meanwhile, everybody actually involved in strength training for any amount of time knows that it's complete hogwash. I love "recent studies" arguments. Never fails to amuse me. I don't even need to read the Sunday comics after this one
What is "Low weight"
Isn't it different for everyone?
There are benefits to training in the high rep range as long as there is progression.
"As long as there is progression". Sure, that's exactly the problem. Doing lots of high rep work is fine, it's better than sitting on the couch. It's good for just getting started and learning the moves and conditioning the body. However, doing high rep work does little for building strength. This means that progression stalls out very quickly. Then you get stuck doing the same weight forever. The whole goal of strength training is progression and high rep training is not conducive to this goal at all.
You said, " However, doing high rep work does little for building strength. This means that progression stalls out very quickly."
Progression does not always = strength.
Think of the many ways one can progress. Strength, endurance, hypertrophy, fat loss, calorie burning, more volume, shorter rest periods, longer intervals, etc.
So you can't assume that everyone is training for building strength.
This is MFP... most people just want to look better, feel better etc.
It's best to think about the possibilities, using the tools properly. High reps are a tool, they aren't for everyone, but a smart trainee can use them in a program with great results -- set a goal and shoot for it!!
What we are trying to say, but you are refusing to hear, is that no matter which of those measures of progress you're looking for, 20 rep sets will NOT get you there. N-O-T NOT NOT NOT. Watch my lips so you can see the words come out. NOT. GONNA. GET. YOU. THERE.
Those type of high rep sets don't lead to any sort of progression. They don't lead to any sort of change in the muscle. Essentially, it's cardio, but it doesn't involve a large enough base of mass to effectively raise your heart rate. You'd be better served running a mile and then doing 3 sets of a weight you can lift 10 times max.
If you want to make a case that an occasional high rep set will expand your capillaries, help with form, or any other pseudo-sciencey type thing, go ahead, I won't stop you. May help, probably won't hurt. But if you want to say that basing a working around 20 rep sets will do anything besides wear out your joints, it's wrong. Just plain wrong. It's always been wrong. Any study that tells you this is wrong.0 -
DavPul - I do agree that low reps heavy weight is the ideal for increasing strength and or explosive power, but how do you explain those people who workout with nothing but their own bodyweight and exhibit incredible strength? Or the yoga practitioner who can hold amazing postures that appear to defy gravity? What about the gymnast who is able to hold the crucifix on the rings.
Many of these have fine physiques but do not appear strong if placed against someone who lifts heavy, but no-one can say they do not possess strength.
Not trying to stir the pot - just my observation as someone who has lifted heavy 20+ years ago and now practises Yogaand body resistance exercises for strength and well being.0 -
OP: Look into body weight programs. Better than tiny dumbells.
This article explains the differences between heavy weight training and metabolic training as well as the benefits and draw backs of each:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-1.html0 -
A recent study showed that you can trigger hypertrophy by doing 60% 1RM to fatigue. The to fatigue is the hard part... I, personally, don't have the patience to make low weights go to failure.0
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Thanks BusyLady - I've saved your link to Favourites to give it a good read when I can.0
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The most recent studies are saying that low weight/high rep is as effective as high weight/low rep as long as you work your muscles to exhaustion, regardless of which you choose.
Lulz
Lulz right back at you. Look it up.
Oh that's right, someone, somewhere wrote it and published it on the net. I forget that means that it's true. Meanwhile, everybody actually involved in strength training for any amount of time knows that it's complete hogwash. I love "recent studies" arguments. Never fails to amuse me. I don't even need to read the Sunday comics after this one
What is "Low weight"
Isn't it different for everyone?
There are benefits to training in the high rep range as long as there is progression.
"As long as there is progression". Sure, that's exactly the problem. Doing lots of high rep work is fine, it's better than sitting on the couch. It's good for just getting started and learning the moves and conditioning the body. However, doing high rep work does little for building strength. This means that progression stalls out very quickly. Then you get stuck doing the same weight forever. The whole goal of strength training is progression and high rep training is not conducive to this goal at all.
You said, " However, doing high rep work does little for building strength. This means that progression stalls out very quickly."
Progression does not always = strength.
Think of the many ways one can progress. Strength, endurance, hypertrophy, fat loss, calorie burning, more volume, shorter rest periods, longer intervals, etc.
So you can't assume that everyone is training for building strength.
This is MFP... most people just want to look better, feel better etc.
It's best to think about the possibilities, using the tools properly. High reps are a tool, they aren't for everyone, but a smart trainee can use them in a program with great results -- set a goal and shoot for it!!
What we are trying to say, but you are refusing to hear, is that no matter which of those measures of progress you're looking for, 20 rep sets will NOT get you there. N-O-T NOT NOT NOT. Watch my lips so you can see the words come out. NOT. GONNA. GET. YOU. THERE.
Those type of high rep sets don't lead to any sort of progression. They don't lead to any sort of change in the muscle. Essentially, it's cardio, but it doesn't involve a large enough base of mass to effectively raise your heart rate. You'd be better served running a mile and then doing 3 sets of a weight you can lift 10 times max.
If you want to make a case that an occasional high rep set will expand your capillaries, help with form, or any other pseudo-sciencey type thing, go ahead, I won't stop you. May help, probably won't hurt. But if you want to say that basing a working around 20 rep sets will do anything besides wear out your joints, it's wrong. Just plain wrong. It's always been wrong. Any study that tells you this is wrong.
You are actually wrong. Or at least not right. Even huge proponents of lifting heavy have to admit that you can't completely write-off intermediate and higher repetition work. http://www.leangains.com/2010/08/high-reps-vs-low-reps-for-muscle-gain.html
They cite primary literature here as well as representing the opinions of some of the big dogs of fitness.0 -
When I read DavPul's posts, I sense a lot of negativity. It's the classic "I'm right, you're wrong" argument without really considering all the variables.
The funny thing is that if DavPul were to have me train him for a session is that we would do a variety of rep ranges, but the high reps would kill him the most.
I have a relatively skinny client right now that started with me a month ago and has already gained 10 lbs of mass doing a variety of rep ranges. I am confident that one of the best builders so far has been the Kettlebell squat ladders I have him do.
10 reps with heavy kettlebell --> immediately to 15 reps with medium kettlebell --> 20 reps with a light kettlebell.
When I give free fitness assessments, I train most men using that parameter and they absolutely dig the workout. As for progress, we just start with a heavier kettlebell or use less rest periods.
What DavPul fails to realize is that every body is different and every training system is different. I am interested to hear about other people's training styles...
My job is to have a broad knowledge of many types of exercise and then prescribe specific parameters for my clients. Sometimes they will benefit from 10-20 rep sets. If it's easy, you're doing it wrong.0 -
DavPul - I do agree that low reps heavy weight is the ideal for increasing strength and or explosive power, but how do you explain those people who workout with nothing but their own bodyweight and exhibit incredible strength? Or the yoga practitioner who can hold amazing postures that appear to defy gravity? What about the gymnast who is able to hold the crucifix on the rings.
Many of these have fine physiques but do not appear strong if placed against someone who lifts heavy, but no-one can say they do not possess strength.
Not trying to stir the pot - just my observation as someone who has lifted heavy 20+ years ago and now practises Yogaand body resistance exercises for strength and well being.
Those are excellent things to do! I do yoga 2x per week and a bodyweight routine 3x per week. Neither of those involves 20+ reps with dumbbells. And since the average male weighs 160 lbs+ (I weigh 226), we can't really consider that "light" weight/high reps, can we? There's a group of guys that do chip up bar exercises all day in Venice that look FANFRIGGINGTASTIC. They never go to a gym. But doing muscle ups and human flags, even if you CAN do 20 of them, is NOT light weight.0 -
.When I read DavPul's posts, I sense a lot of negativity. It's the classic "I'm right, you're wrong" argument without really considering all the variables.
The funny thing is that if DavPul were to have me train him for a session is that we would do a variety of rep ranges, but the high reps would kill him the most.
I have a relatively skinny client right now that started with me a month ago and has already gained 10 lbs of mass doing a variety of rep ranges. I am confident that one of the best builders so far has been the Kettlebell squat ladders I have him do.
10 reps with heavy kettlebell --> immediately to 15 reps with medium kettlebell --> 20 reps with a light kettlebell.
When I give free fitness assessments, I train most men using that parameter and they absolutely dig the workout. As for progress, we just start with a heavier kettlebell or use less rest periods.
What DavPul fails to realize is that every body is different and every training system is different. I am interested to hear about other people's training styles...
My job is to have a broad knowledge of many types of exercise and then prescribe specific parameters for my clients. Sometimes they will benefit from 10-20 rep sets. If it's easy, you're doing it wrong.
whatever you say bub. your 20 rep sets would not kill me, believe me on that. they would, however, bore me. And they wouldn't assist in my progress. just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are ignorant and haven't seen all the variables. sometimes it just means you're wrong. have a good lyfe.0 -
til ya feel the burnnnnn:glasses:0
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ummm, by and largely no. The foundations for training is pretty set in stone and universal amongst the population. How the body responds to stimulus is pretty concrete and not genetically different.What DavPul fails to realize is that every body is different and every training system is different. I am interested to hear about other people's training styles...0 -
they exhibit incredible strength because they do strength training using body weight instead of endurance training using bodyweight....DavPul - I do agree that low reps heavy weight is the ideal for increasing strength and or explosive power, but how do you explain those people who workout with nothing but their own bodyweight and exhibit incredible strength? Or the yoga practitioner who can hold amazing postures that appear to defy gravity? What about the gymnast who is able to hold the crucifix on the rings.
Many of these have fine physiques but do not appear strong if placed against someone who lifts heavy, but no-one can say they do not possess strength.
Not trying to stir the pot - just my observation as someone who has lifted heavy 20+ years ago and now practises Yogaand body resistance exercises for strength and well being.0 -
And so how does this factor into 20 rep sets in your opinion?
ummm, by and largely no. The foundations for training is pretty set in stone and universal amongst the population. How the body responds to stimulus is pretty concrete and not genetically different.What DavPul fails to realize is that every body is different and every training system is different. I am interested to hear about other people's training styles...0 -
When I read DavPul's posts, I sense a lot of negativity. It's the classic "I'm right, you're wrong" argument without really considering all the variables.
The funny thing is that if DavPul were to have me train him for a session is that we would do a variety of rep ranges, but the high reps would kill him the most.
I have a relatively skinny client right now that started with me a month ago and has already gained 10 lbs of mass doing a variety of rep ranges. I am confident that one of the best builders so far has been the Kettlebell squat ladders I have him do.
10 reps with heavy kettlebell --> immediately to 15 reps with medium kettlebell --> 20 reps with a light kettlebell.
When I give free fitness assessments, I train most men using that parameter and they absolutely dig the workout. As for progress, we just start with a heavier kettlebell or use less rest periods.
What DavPul fails to realize is that every body is different and every training system is different. I am interested to hear about other people's training styles...
My job is to have a broad knowledge of many types of exercise and then prescribe specific parameters for my clients. Sometimes they will benefit from 10-20 rep sets. If it's easy, you're doing it wrong.
No you don't sense negativity. You sense facts. You are a trainer? For real?? Hard to believe.0 -
DavPul - I do agree that low reps heavy weight is the ideal for increasing strength and or explosive power, but how do you explain those people who workout with nothing but their own bodyweight and exhibit incredible strength? Or the yoga practitioner who can hold amazing postures that appear to defy gravity? What about the gymnast who is able to hold the crucifix on the rings.
Many of these have fine physiques but do not appear strong if placed against someone who lifts heavy, but no-one can say they do not possess strength.
Not trying to stir the pot - just my observation as someone who has lifted heavy 20+ years ago and now practises Yogaand body resistance exercises for strength and well being.
Those are excellent things to do! I do yoga 2x per week and a bodyweight routine 3x per week. Neither of those involves 20+ reps with dumbbells. And since the average male weighs 160 lbs+ (I weigh 226), we can't really consider that "light" weight/high reps, can we? There's a group of guys that do chip up bar exercises all day in Venice that look FANFRIGGINGTASTIC. They never go to a gym. But doing muscle ups and human flags, even if you CAN do 20 of them, is NOT light weight.
So 20RM is not light weight for some exercises.
A few things to consider...
The exercise can be
-Explosive or static, or full ROM with tempo.
-Incorporating full body, or isolated body parts
-Work capacity / endurance focused
20 reps is high reps.
The flaw of OP's question is that he says "low weight." Low weight is relative. Low compared to your 1RM maybe. Many people will still respond well to higher reps, especially on the bang for the buck exercises.
Also any muscles which are slow twitch dominant or contain significant slow twitch fibers will likely produce hypertrophy at a higher rep range.0 -
Bring it on guys, progression is everything.0
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