Do I need protein shakes?

Sarauk2sf · December 2012

Glad you said this, didn't want to tear apart another study. You're right I am anti study. I provide them for people like you. I don't care what any study says for the most part. The people who think the studies are the END ALL BE ALL and are the absolute answer.

Then you are basing your 'don't worry about protein' comments,, made without context and dosage information, based on absolutely nothing then.....got it!

And what study have you torn apart exactly??

kdeaux1959 · December 2012

There are those who claim that you cannot build muscle while on a calorie deficit. I found that I WAS able to gain strength by maintaining a strong protein intake while maintaining a calorie deficit. That being said, it is easier to do the heavier that you are. The key is maintain strong protein and pull out of the other macros (especially bad fats and sugars if possible).. I tend to steal from my carbs. Best wishes on meeting your goals. (Short answer on the shakes.. I have never drank one and I have gained strength-- I do eat protein bars, however.... Does not matter how you get the protein... just get it..)

Sarauk2sf · December 2012

OP:

You can either keep your protein as it is or ignore it all together, which may well be less than optimal based on numerous peer reviewed studies and experts in the field such as Alan Aragon and Eric Helms, or you can increase your protein, minimize the possibility at being at too low of a protein number, which incidentally is more satiating and has a higher TEF than carbs. To me, is a no-brainer.

SideSteel · December 2012

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When do you need protein shakes?

I want to get into lifting weights so wasn't sure if I needed extra protein or how much. I am generally over the amount that MFP sets me.

Plus I have a lot of weight to lose so is it possible to build muscle and strength while losing all the excess weight?

Protein is overrated, so no you don't. You'll be fine.

How much is she currently taking, what are her stats and what is her deficit? Or is protein intake completely irrelevant?

Or do you just disregard it entirely?

can't be less than this raw foodist

or this guy, alkalarian diet... 90% green vegetables

Pretty sure they have a facebook page, look them and ask them.

Ryan Marcotte
Anthony Anderson.

Oh and BOTH at deficit

Did you Dexa scan them to measure lbm changes? Did you Dexa yourself? Will you answer my previous questions or are you going to keep moving the goal posts?

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Aragon say in the protein round table "I seen some funky things with DEXA." If he did, why would you mention it?

To answer your question "Do i think protein intake is completely irrelevant?" No.

All methods of bf estimation have error aside from autopsy. I'm questioning you because your belief seems to be that you are not losing lbm and your vegetarian buddies up there did not either. I am asking if you chose something reliable as a measure of lbm status to validate this claim.

SideSteel · December 2012

There are those who claim that you cannot build muscle while on a calorie deficit. I found that I WAS able to gain strength by maintaining a strong protein intake while maintaining a calorie deficit. That being said, it is easier to do the heavier that you are. The key is maintain strong protein and pull out of the other macros (especially bad fats and sugars if possible).. I tend to steal from my carbs. Best wishes on meeting your goals. (Short answer on the shakes.. I have never drank one and I have gained strength-- I do eat protein bars, however.... Does not matter how you get the protein... just get it..)

While you actually can gain minimal amounts of lbm during a deficit, the strength gaining component is largely neurological (rate coding). Often times people make reasonable strength gains while they may not gain any lbm at all.

Sarauk2sf · December 2012

show previous quotes

Glad you said this, didn't want to tear apart another study. You're right I am anti study. I provide them for people like you. I don't care what any study says for the most part. The people who think the studies are the END ALL BE ALL and are the absolute answer.

Then you are basing your 'don't worry about protein' comments,, made without context and dosage information, based on absolutely nothing then.....got it!

And what study have you torn apart exactly??

Context and dosage is based off calorie intake As I said in other posts it's not like you're going to eat 100% carbs or 100% fat in your diet. The only situation recommend a semi high protein intake if a person is eating very little carbs and fats. The study in the other topic, you said "you can knit pick my study" or something along those lines.

"Context and dosage is based off calorie intake" - nope, that is not what I meant

"The only situation recommend a semi high protein intake if a person is eating very little carbs and fats." - The studies I posted would disagree with this.

"The study in the other topic, you said "you can knit pick my study" or something along those lines" I have no idea what you are talking about to be honest.

SideSteel · December 2012

show previous quotes

There are those who claim that you cannot build muscle while on a calorie deficit. I found that I WAS able to gain strength by maintaining a strong protein intake while maintaining a calorie deficit. That being said, it is easier to do the heavier that you are. The key is maintain strong protein and pull out of the other macros (especially bad fats and sugars if possible).. I tend to steal from my carbs. Best wishes on meeting your goals. (Short answer on the shakes.. I have never drank one and I have gained strength-- I do eat protein bars, however.... Does not matter how you get the protein... just get it..)

While you actually can gain minimal amounts of lbm during a deficit, the strength gaining component is largely neurological (rate coding). Often times people make reasonable strength gains while they may not gain any lbm at all.

Yet most of you guys recommend "LIFT HEAVY" for body composition. Lifting heavy is mostly neurological

Are you drunk right now? Srs question Pu.

Melo1966 · December 2012

Once again protein is over rated. I eat about 100g of protein and have a LBM of 196lbs. With reduce protein intake amino acid oxidation goes up. Also carbs are muscle sparing. The guy above said you need protein to recover from workouts. He seemed semi educated he also knows that muscles mostly burn glucose aka carbs.

So save your money.

Actually per grams of protein, protein whey is FAR CHEAPER than meat. So to save money buy the whey over additional servings of meat. Having a balanced diet of both is very good.

theryan244 · December 2012

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Once again protein is over rated. I eat about 100g of protein and have a LBM of 196lbs. With reduce protein intake amino acid oxidation goes up. Also carbs are muscle sparing. The guy above said you need protein to recover from workouts. He seemed semi educated he also knows that muscles mostly burn glucose aka carbs.

So save your money.

Are you saying .5 grams of protein per pound of BW, the amount you eat, is equally as sufficient as 1g of protein per pound of BW in terms of muscle sparing/protein synthesis? I don't see how you could substantiate that claim.

Most research agrees there is no correlation between protein synthesis and protein intake. I did not say BW as in Total body weight, I said LBM(Lean Body Mass). More protein won't hurt. If you want to take it go ahead, but it's not necessary.

Here is a study on renal disease and protein intake.
show previous quotes

People with renal disease must consume low amounts of protein to delay their disease. They must under 0.3g of protein per pound of body weight. A man of 160lbs would consume 48g of protein. Their disease is highly catabolic(breaks down their muscles). One group lifted weights while the other group did not. Even with ridiculous low amount of protein the group that lifted weights had a slight increase of LBM. The group who didn’t do any resistance training? They lost 7lbs of LBM. This shows how powerful resistance training can be.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11730397

How is renal disease related to the topic of discussion? The study doesn't conclude anything profound and does nothing to confirm your initial claim. It concludes that people who lift weights and consume low amounts of protein will still have a "slight increase" of LBM. This is completely irrelevant from what is optimal, or at the very least standard. We are discussing adequate protein intake for HEALTHY individuals, specifically an individual who is going to be in a caloric deficit. You cannot reasonably and scientifically argue anything less than 1g per pound of body weight, especially a drastic reduction of protein, is going to be superior in terms of muscle preservation. Maybe tolerable, not superior. "There is no correlation between protein synthesis and protein intake."... Are you even serious?

Sarauk2sf · December 2012

Yet most of you guys recommend "LIFT HEAVY" for body composition. Lifting heavy is mostly neurological adaptation.

Really??????

union226 · December 2012

The general rule is you dont build muscle while in a caloric deficit although there are a few exceptions. I assume that you are new to weight training so in this case you can probably build musle when dieting because your body isnt accustomed to such stimulus.

theryan244 · December 2012

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lolz - the debate on the above is here if anyone is interested. http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/787083-muscle-growth-protein-recommendations-highly-over-rated.

Oh, and you do realize that nitrogen balance is an imperfect measure of protein synthesis don't you? Which is the measure used for a bunch of the studies above.

Oh you do realize most of the "studies"( if you want to call them that) you posted just make claims. They don't talk about how experiments where conducted. They're just making blind claims like the study below

"Dietary protein is required to promote growth, repair damaged cells and tissue, synthesize hormones, and for a variety of metabolic activities. There are multiple sources of proteins available; however, animal sources of protein contain all essential amino acids and are considered complete sources of protein, whereas plant proteins lack some of the essential amino acids and are therefore classified as incomplete. There is a significant body of evidence to indicate that individuals who are engaged in intense training require more dietary protein than sedentary counterparts (ie, 1.4-2 g/kg/day). For most individuals, this level of protein intake can be obtained from a regular and varied diet. However, recent evidence indicates that ingesting protein and/or amino acids prior to, during, and/or following exercise can enhance recovery, immune function, and growth and maintenance of lean body mass. Consequently, protein and amino acid supplements can serve as a convenient way to ensure a timely and/or adequate intake for athletes. Finally, adequate intake and appropriate timing of protein ingestion has been shown to be beneficial in multiple exercise modes, including endurance, anaerobic, and strength exercise."

We obviously don't agree on this subject, we have contradicting studies. Since we can relay on the "education" what can we go off of? Experience.

Have you even tried to lower your protein intake, if you did, did you get negative results in terms of loss of LBM?

I am speaking from 2 perspectives, education AND experience.

I am absolutely not willing to lower my protein intake to make some anecdotal sample of n=1 non controlled study when I believe that I would run the risk of muscle loss based on peer reviewed studies and based on guidance from extremely well versed nutritional experts such as Aragon and Helms, Don't forget, leanness. training intensity and caloric deficit is also a factor in how much protein is optimal.

And I 'relayed' the information by providing the link to the first time you posted that study so that THIS thread was not derailed.

And I am not sure why you are calling them 'studies' in quotes as if indicating that they are not - what on earth else are they?

^ Wish MFP had a "thumbs up" option.

Warchortle · December 2012

Economically speaking whey protein is even cheaper than eggs, so if you're just looking to hit macro nutrients and you don't care about enjoying food then be my guest :P I don't LOVE protein shakes, but I find them enjoyable. I do find vanilla flavors and variations to be the most flexible.

Sarauk2sf · December 2012

show previous quotes

There are those who claim that you cannot build muscle while on a calorie deficit. I found that I WAS able to gain strength by maintaining a strong protein intake while maintaining a calorie deficit. That being said, it is easier to do the heavier that you are. The key is maintain strong protein and pull out of the other macros (especially bad fats and sugars if possible).. I tend to steal from my carbs. Best wishes on meeting your goals. (Short answer on the shakes.. I have never drank one and I have gained strength-- I do eat protein bars, however.... Does not matter how you get the protein... just get it..)

While you actually can gain minimal amounts of lbm during a deficit, the strength gaining component is largely neurological (rate coding). Often times people make reasonable strength gains while they may not gain any lbm at all.

Yet most of you guys recommend "LIFT HEAVY" for body composition. Lifting heavy is mostly neurological

Are you drunk right now? Srs question Pu.

I understand and No I am not drunk.

I made my point. We know how these debates go. I won't agree with you, you won't agree with me. I stated what I had to say.

My final thoughts on the subject:

It's possible you guys are wrong, it's possible I am wrong. Studies are contradictory. Honestly we may never know the real answer. Context and dosage, yes it's important but under normal circumstances I don't think it's that important. @sidesteel, I saw you wrote on Razique's wall you're reading "Advanced Nutrition and metabolism" In section 2 about macro nutrients I believe in the first paragraph it specifically says carbohydrates are the greatest energy source, as we all know. Carbs are muscle sparing, for muscle anabolism you know a calorie surplus is needed not a PROTEIN surplus. The body works on a negative feedback loop, It's smart enough to make the right choices to preserve what it needs to. You can eat all the protein in the world or all the carbs in the world, with no activity muscle will atrophy. A stimuli is needed to grow and preserve muscle tissue, resistance training. I have nothing more to say, I let you guys have the last word.

This is where you are missing the point of the context and dosage comment - the OP is at a deficit and you have no idea what her carb levels are or even what her calorie intake is. And I am not sure why you are making the point about stimuli - the OP said she was starting to lift weights - or did you not read that in your rush to say macros are unimportant?

Sarauk2sf · December 2012

show previous quotes

Once again protein is over rated. I eat about 100g of protein and have a LBM of 196lbs. With reduce protein intake amino acid oxidation goes up. Also carbs are muscle sparing. The guy above said you need protein to recover from workouts. He seemed semi educated he also knows that muscles mostly burn glucose aka carbs.

So save your money.

Are you saying .5 grams of protein per pound of BW, the amount you eat, is equally as sufficient as 1g of protein per pound of BW in terms of muscle sparing/protein synthesis? I don't see how you could substantiate that claim.

Most research agrees there is no correlation between protein synthesis and protein intake. I did not say BW as in Total body weight, I said LBM(Lean Body Mass). More protein won't hurt. If you want to take it go ahead, but it's not necessary.

Here is a study on renal disease and protein intake.

People with renal disease must consume low amounts of protein to delay their disease. They must under 0.3g of protein per pound of body weight. A man of 160lbs would consume 48g of protein. Their disease is highly catabolic(breaks down their muscles). One group lifted weights while the other group did not. Even with ridiculous low amount of protein the group that lifted weights had a slight increase of LBM. The group who didn’t do any resistance training? They lost 7lbs of LBM. This shows how powerful resistance training can be.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11730397

How is renal disease related to the topic of discussion? The study doesn't conclude anything profound and does nothing to confirm your initial claim. It concludes that people who lift weights and consume low amounts of protein will still have a "slight increase" of LBM. This is completely irrelevant from what is optimal, or at the very least standard. We are discussing adequate protein intake for HEALTHY individuals, specifically an individual who is going to be in a caloric deficit. You cannot reasonably and scientifically argue anything less than 1g per pound of body weight, especially a drastic reduction of protein, is going to be superior in terms of muscle preservation. Maybe tolerable, not superior. "There is no correlation between protein synthesis and protein intake."... Are you even serious?

Okay i'll eat 500g of protein and grow like a weed. You know it doesn't work that way. Healthy INDIVIDUALS can utilize protein better than people with renal disease, that's the point. If people can grow with such low amounts of protein, below what most people eat. Healthy individuals are getting enough protein for growth. I don't remember how much they gained in the renal study, but I think 5lbs gains is pretty standard which IS optimal. Read the link that sara posted it talks about the 5lbs baseline.

LBM =/= muscle gains necessarily. You should know that.

SideSteel · December 2012

I am counting my contributions to this thread as "cardio". Just sayin.

theryan244 · December 2012

show previous quotes

Once again protein is over rated. I eat about 100g of protein and have a LBM of 196lbs. With reduce protein intake amino acid oxidation goes up. Also carbs are muscle sparing. The guy above said you need protein to recover from workouts. He seemed semi educated he also knows that muscles mostly burn glucose aka carbs.

So save your money.

Are you saying .5 grams of protein per pound of BW, the amount you eat, is equally as sufficient as 1g of protein per pound of BW in terms of muscle sparing/protein synthesis? I don't see how you could substantiate that claim.

Most research agrees there is no correlation between protein synthesis and protein intake. I did not say BW as in Total body weight, I said LBM(Lean Body Mass). More protein won't hurt. If you want to take it go ahead, but it's not necessary.

Here is a study on renal disease and protein intake.

People with renal disease must consume low amounts of protein to delay their disease. They must under 0.3g of protein per pound of body weight. A man of 160lbs would consume 48g of protein. Their disease is highly catabolic(breaks down their muscles). One group lifted weights while the other group did not. Even with ridiculous low amount of protein the group that lifted weights had a slight increase of LBM. The group who didn’t do any resistance training? They lost 7lbs of LBM. This shows how powerful resistance training can be.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11730397

How is renal disease related to the topic of discussion? The study doesn't conclude anything profound and does nothing to confirm your initial claim. It concludes that people who lift weights and consume low amounts of protein will still have a "slight increase" of LBM. This is completely irrelevant from what is optimal, or at the very least standard. We are discussing adequate protein intake for HEALTHY individuals, specifically an individual who is going to be in a caloric deficit. You cannot reasonably and scientifically argue anything less than 1g per pound of body weight, especially a drastic reduction of protein, is going to be superior in terms of muscle preservation. Maybe tolerable, not superior. "There is no correlation between protein synthesis and protein intake."... Are you even serious?

Okay i'll eat 500g of protein and grow like a weed. You know it doesn't work that way. Healthy INDIVIDUALS can utilize protein better than people with renal disease, that's the point. If people can grow with such low amounts of protein, below what most people eat. Healthy individuals are getting enough protein for growth. I don't remember how much they gained in the renal study, but I think 5lbs gains is pretty standard which IS optimal. Read the link that sara posted it talks about the 5lbs baseline.

"Healthy INDIVIDUALS can utilize protein better than people with renal disease." Yes. I thought it was obvious that people with a medical condition which inhibits proper kidney function would be recommended to lower protein intake. I'm going to be seemingly arrogant, not that it matters, and not even consider your claim that the people in the study you are referring to gained an optimal amount of muscle tissue. .3g of protein per pound of body weight will yield less superior results in regards to hypertrophic muscle gains than will 1g of protein per pound of body weight in healthy individuals. If you can't agree with that, than you are hopelessly confused.

plaingirly · December 2012

Maybe shakes are a good idea - I don't mind cutting back on carbs to get more protein.

I don't just want to lose weight. I want to get fit and strong too! To me there is no point getting to my goal weight and still being unfit and feeling rubbish. I have never done any weights before so am hoping I will see some changes! I have spent my life avoiding exercise but after about a month it turns out that I quite like it.

Now to decide what sort of protein shake! There seem to be hundreds of them! x

PinkyKiwii · December 2012

BUMP

chrisdavey · December 2012

I like to eat chicken

plaingirly · December 2012

Am thinking maybe XL Nutrition Xtra Whey. Seems quite well reviewed and a reasonable price. x

brandie_lou · December 2012

Heeerrrrre we go again.............

The 25,986 case studies and websites I've read show this, in fact, to be true!

bilfarb1 · December 2012

I just remembered why I dont check the posts.

AllTehBeers · December 2012

Heeerrrrre we go again.............

I kinda wanna be more then friends...

Yanicka1 · December 2012

show previous quotes

When do you need protein shakes?

I want to get into lifting weights so wasn't sure if I needed extra protein or how much. I am generally over the amount that MFP sets me.

Plus I have a lot of weight to lose so is it possible to build muscle and strength while losing all the excess weight?

Protein is overrated, so no you don't. You'll be fine.

How much is she currently taking, what are her stats and what is her deficit? Or is protein intake completely irrelevant?

Or do you just disregard it entirely?

can't be less than this raw foodist

or this guy, alkalarian diet... 90% green vegetables

Pretty sure they have a facebook page, look them and ask them.

Ryan Marcotte
Anthony Anderson.

Oh and BOTH at deficit

Did you Dexa scan them to measure lbm changes? Did you Dexa yourself? Will you answer my previous questions or are you going to keep moving the goal posts?

The first pic is fake. How it is done

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M957dACQyfU

redraidergirl2009 · December 2012

you don't.

Dawnhasajeep · December 2012

show previous quotes

Once again protein is over rated. I eat about 100g of protein and have a LBM of 196lbs. With reduce protein intake amino acid oxidation goes up. Also carbs are muscle sparing. The guy above said you need protein to recover from workouts. He seemed semi educated he also knows that muscles mostly burn glucose aka carbs.

So save your money.

Are you saying .5 grams of protein per pound of BW, the amount you eat, is equally as sufficient as 1g of protein per pound of BW in terms of muscle sparing/protein synthesis? I don't see how you could substantiate that claim.

Most research agrees there is no correlation between protein synthesis and protein intake. I did not say BW as in Total body weight, I said LBM(Lean Body Mass). More protein won't hurt. If you want to take it go ahead, but it's not necessary.

Here is a study on renal disease and protein intake.

People with renal disease must consume low amounts of protein to delay their disease. They must under 0.3g of protein per pound of body weight. A man of 160lbs would consume 48g of protein. Their disease is highly catabolic(breaks down their muscles). One group lifted weights while the other group did not. Even with ridiculous low amount of protein the group that lifted weights had a slight increase of LBM. The group who didn’t do any resistance training? They lost 7lbs of LBM. This shows how powerful resistance training can be.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11730397

What about these studies then?

The current RDA for protein intake is .8g/kg of bodyweight. The real kicker here is that they claim that there is no benefit to eating more than that. I simply want to arm people with research that disputes this.

So, here we go:

1.4-2g of protein per kg of bodyweight is beneficial for individuals engaged in intense exercise:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20048505
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19278045
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17908291
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18500966

2-3g/kg is beneficial for athletes:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14971434

Older subjects lost lean mass getting the RDA protein recommendations (.8g/kg):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11382798

Double the RDA outperformed the RDA for individuals in a calorie deficit:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/495538
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16046715

Triple the RDA outperformed the RDA for individuals in a calorie deficit: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19927027

Subjects with a 1.5g/kg protein intake lost fat and gained lean mass:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10838463

Of people that don't exercise, high protien intake causes less lean-mass loss:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17299116

Protein intake has no effect?

Do not believe any study with ".gov" in the web address.

SideSteel · December 2012

Do not believe any study with ".gov" in the web address.

You aren't seriously suggesting that pubmed is a faulty source due to the fact that the web address has a .gov in it?

Please, PLEASE tell me you're trolling?

Bobby__Clerici · December 2012

Need?
As some have mentioned, what we "need" is protein, and when we're unable to buck up with whole foods, we supplement with whey, soy or whatever.
I prefer whey powder for a 60 gram boost. And yes..macro's are important. No debate on the obvious...
Whole foods are still optimal, but after several failures on that front, I have become a believer and user of supplements with continued reservations.
Is what I am getting really properly represented by the label claims?
That's my big beef...

Sarauk2sf · December 2012

Do not believe any study with ".gov" in the web address.

I don't think you understand what PubMed is.

Do I need protein shakes?

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