working on a new lifting routine - thoughts?

and D by lots of people that are none of those.

well i've been set back by getting sick a couple times, but I would say I was pretty close. should be back where I was in a few more weeks. thanks for your concern.

The 'lots of people who are none of those' don't know what they're talking about. Doing a push, pull, legs split is an extremely viable method for getting very (VERY) strong. There are admittedly some flaws that I can see with Jackson's program, but the premise behind it is sound.

As a fledgeling intermediate lifter, what makes you so sure that your comments are accurate? The tone of your posts has been that yours is the only way to do things, and it's not. Having an open mind to different philosophies in lifting is, in my opinion, tremendously important to future progress once you become more advanced.

I'm familiar with push\pull\legs although I'm not sure if it would ever be THE best method for anyone, and if it is, it would be for a very advanced lifter. The kind that doesn't need to post routines at all, or doesn't post something terrible. It just isn't the same thing as someone with little to no programming knowledge trying to make up a routine. The only thing I really think is "the only way to do things" is for people who can't program for themselves don't for the exact reasons seen is this thread.

and D by lots of people that are none of those.

well i've been set back by getting sick a couple times, but I would say I was pretty close. should be back where I was in a few more weeks. thanks for your concern.

The 'lots of people who are none of those' don't know what they're talking about. Doing a push, pull, legs split is an extremely viable method for getting very (VERY) strong. There are admittedly some flaws that I can see with Jackson's program, but the premise behind it is sound.

As a fledgeling intermediate lifter, what makes you so sure that your comments are accurate? The tone of your posts has been that yours is the only way to do things, and it's not. Having an open mind to different philosophies in lifting is, in my opinion, tremendously important to future progress once you become more advanced.

I'm familiar with push\pull\legs although I'm not sure if it would ever be THE best method for anyone, and if it is, it would be for a very advanced lifter. The kind that doesn't need to post routines at all, or doesn't post something terrible. It just isn't the same thing as someone with little to no programming knowledge trying to make up a routine. The only thing I really think is "the only way to do things" is for people who can't program for themselves don't for the exact reasons seen is this thread.

While I generally agree with your comments and respect your knowledge and opinions, this is where I think you fall off. Your idea of what constitutes being advanced or intermediate is much much too high. Essentially you seem to want people to follow beginner programs until they reach social security.

People are capable of doing split routines and more work a longer than you are giving them credit for. Plus people have other goals besides just adding general overall strength. If you're looking to gain size in specific areas, these 5x5 programs just aren't enough work, imo.

If you want to weight train three days a week, why not experiment with full body workouts? Mon/Wed/Fri on. Tues/Thurs/Sat/Sun off. Unless you plan on purchasing anabolics, abandon the 7 day a week "bro split."

and D by lots of people that are none of those.

well i've been set back by getting sick a couple times, but I would say I was pretty close. should be back where I was in a few more weeks. thanks for your concern.

The 'lots of people who are none of those' don't know what they're talking about. Doing a push, pull, legs split is an extremely viable method for getting very (VERY) strong. There are admittedly some flaws that I can see with Jackson's program, but the premise behind it is sound.

As a fledgeling intermediate lifter, what makes you so sure that your comments are accurate? The tone of your posts has been that yours is the only way to do things, and it's not. Having an open mind to different philosophies in lifting is, in my opinion, tremendously important to future progress once you become more advanced.

I'm familiar with push\pull\legs although I'm not sure if it would ever be THE best method for anyone, and if it is, it would be for a very advanced lifter. The kind that doesn't need to post routines at all, or doesn't post something terrible. It just isn't the same thing as someone with little to no programming knowledge trying to make up a routine. The only thing I really think is "the only way to do things" is for people who can't program for themselves don't for the exact reasons seen is this thread.

While I generally agree with your comments and respect your knowledge and opinions, this is where I think you fall off. Your idea of what constitutes being advanced or intermediate is much much too high. Essentially you seem to want people to follow beginner programs until they reach social security.

People are capable of doing split routines and more work a longer than you are giving them credit for. Plus people have other goals besides just adding general overall strength. If you're looking to gain size in specific areas, these 5x5 programs just aren't enough work, imo.

I think they should do them until they can't make gains on them anymore in a reasonable fashion provided their main goal is fastest strength increase possible. That is also my definition of a "beginner" Not how long they have been lifting or how strong they are, but whether they can make gains with beginner programming. And I know people have other goals, and I don't recommend 5 rep training routines for everyone who comes along. I just don't see much of anyone needing a full 7 days of recovery before working a muscle group again. Are there some people out there in the world that might? Probably so, but I am not sure any of them are around here.

I know you know exactly what it is like to have read and responded to many thousands of posts asking the same stuff. While I do serve up some koolaid, I do have a few more flavors available than many.

and D by lots of people that are none of those.

well i've been set back by getting sick a couple times, but I would say I was pretty close. should be back where I was in a few more weeks. thanks for your concern.

The 'lots of people who are none of those' don't know what they're talking about. Doing a push, pull, legs split is an extremely viable method for getting very (VERY) strong. There are admittedly some flaws that I can see with Jackson's program, but the premise behind it is sound.

As a fledgeling intermediate lifter, what makes you so sure that your comments are accurate? The tone of your posts has been that yours is the only way to do things, and it's not. Having an open mind to different philosophies in lifting is, in my opinion, tremendously important to future progress once you become more advanced.

I'm familiar with push\pull\legs although I'm not sure if it would ever be THE best method for anyone, and if it is, it would be for a very advanced lifter. The kind that doesn't need to post routines at all, or doesn't post something terrible. It just isn't the same thing as someone with little to no programming knowledge trying to make up a routine. The only thing I really think is "the only way to do things" is for people who can't program for themselves don't for the exact reasons seen is this thread.

While I generally agree with your comments and respect your knowledge and opinions, this is where I think you fall off. Your idea of what constitutes being advanced or intermediate is much much too high. Essentially you seem to want people to follow beginner programs until they reach social security.

People are capable of doing split routines and more work a longer than you are giving them credit for. Plus people have other goals besides just adding general overall strength. If you're looking to gain size in specific areas, these 5x5 programs just aren't enough work, imo.

I think they should do them until they can't make gains on them anymore in a reasonable fashion provided their main goal is fastest strength increase possible. That is also my definition of a "beginner" Not how long they have been lifting or how strong they are, but whether they can make gains with beginner programming. And I know people have other goals, and I don't recommend 5 rep training routines for everyone who comes along. I just don't see much of anyone needing a full 7 days of recovery before working a muscle group again. Are there some people out there in the world that might? Probably so, but I am not sure any of them are around here.

I know you know exactly what it is like to have read and responded to many thousands of posts asking the same stuff. While I do serve up some koolaid, I do have a few more flavors available than many.

.

That's the real falloff right there. Your definition of the time to advance is as mythical as unicorns. Advance when they can no longer make gains on 5x5? How does one determine that point? When they add a single extra clip to the bar for a month? Even then they would just do a deload week. Or start wendler.

Starting strength is a beginner strength program. It's right there in the title. START and STRENGTH are right there in the name. Once you're done starting and if your goals change to incorporate asthetic goals then it's time to make adjustments.

Sticking with SS/SL 5x5 for years is similar to continuing C25K after you've starting running half marathons.

I don't think one must wait until their car stalls on the freeway before considering filling up the tank. Once you've learned the basic lifts and developed a solid base of strength, you can move to the next stage if you're willing to try it.

I agree that newbs shouldn't be running around making up their own routines. But this doesn't seem to be one of those cases. And even if it were, once presented we can evaluate the routine based on its own merits as opposed to giving it the auto-reject because the poster doesn't have a 500lb dl on his resume.

If you want to weight train three days a week, why not experiment with full body workouts? Mon/Wed/Fri on. Tues/Thurs/Sat/Sun off. Unless you plan on purchasing anabolics, abandon the 7 day a week "bro split."

Because you can still get strong on splits, with or without anabolics.

I wouldn't do a 3 day bro split.

I would do deadlifts on back day

I would do sldl instead of leg curls

I wouldn't do leg extensions

I wouldn't do lat pulldowns when already doing pullups

I would do chest flies on a cable tower

I would do more shoulders

I would do lunges instead of leg press

I wouldn't try to increase instensity by adding things I don't need

I wouldn't try to program for myself when I don't know how

I'll follow this with the more brutal post from JUSA at bb.com forums

Prologue: I remember years ago when I first started working out and posting here I went out and put together a program all on my own. I thought it through very thoroughly and was very proud of myself when I'd finished. I made a new thread about it and asked for people to critique it in the title. I expected for the most part people would approve of it and might offer tiny suggestions to improve on it.

What I got was people telling me it was awful and I needed to scrap it completely and pick up a pre-made program which was created by someone who was an expert in the weightlifting/strength training or bodybuilding field.

I was upset and annoyed at the time, however it was sound advice. They were right. My program sucked, I did not know what I was doing and if I'd followed it I wouldn't have made any significant long-term gains.

Ask yourself this: Do you know more than Mark Rippetoe, Bill Starr or anyone who has studied strength and hypertrophy training for years and has had countless more years of empirical evidence to refine their knowledge on how to make progress in the gym? (The answer is, of course, "no").

Then why would you use some program you've made over one of theirs?

Why your program is terrible:
1) You've probably designed your program with way too many exercises and way too much volume for a beginner.
- Your program should consist primarily of the following exercises: the squat, the bench press, the deadlift, heavy rows and plenty of core work.
- You do not need endless sets of isolation work right now. You need to focus on compound movements and work on getting a solid base/frame.
- Right now you need to focus on correct form. Master squatting, benching and deadlifting. It's not easy. Odds are you're doing a terrible job on at least two of those exercises. Get a trainer, preferably one who looks like they lift and who has a background in powerlifting, and have them coach you on these essential lifts.

2) You've probably designed your program with way too much emphasis on mirror muscles and not enough on others.
- A good program will have at least as much focus, if not considerably more, on one's back than on one's pecs. Often you see people making programs which have several different benching variations (incline, decline, dumbells, etc), dumbell flies, cable crosses, etc... and then when it's time for back day they do some lat pulldowns and maybe some other fairly useless exercise. This can lead to muscle imbalances which later down the road will mess you and your rotator cuff up. You don't want that. Back in the day when lifters spend tons of time on their back doing rows, pullups, face pulls, deadlifts and other exercises and had strong backs -- nobody had RC problems.
- You're probably neglecting your legs, but this isn't always the case with newbies making programs.

3) You've probably designed your program and left out tons of crucial information.
- What are your goals? Strength? Hypertrophy? General fitness? What is your program supposed to do?
- What is your level of fitness? While it's usually "beginner", often times people don't even bother to say. An advanced lifter will have a drastically different routine than a beginner. Often times beginners don't realize this and they try to emulate a program designed for someone who has been lifting for years. Small muscles, like yours, don't need nearly as much stimulation to shock them into growth. If you overdo it, you'll just burn yourself out and get nowhere.
- Sometimes you see truly awful programs which just toss out a number of exercises and don't bother to elaborate and then they expect someone to critique it. Other times you get a little more. I've yet to see someone incorporate rest times or tempo into their home-made programs, despite it being important stuff. The answer is because you probably don't understand it, which is precisely why you shouldn't be making your own program to begin with.

4) Lastly, we see ****ty programs like yours every day. Often multiple. Frankly, it's tiresome. Please, read the stickies and pick a program which will work from there. There is a saying that "Anything will work... for about 6 weeks", which is probably true. You might see minor progress with whatever terrible program you've made but in time you will stall out and you will not make much, if any, progress. Think long-term, drop your ego and realize there are people out there who dedicate their lives to this and they know more than you. Find a program which suits your level of fitness and your goals. Use it.

5) Here are some excellent programs which I hope you consider looking into:

- Rippetoes aka Starting Strength: I can personally attest to this program being superb. It's designed for any novice or beginner lifter but also for more experienced lifters who might not be used to a program consisting of heavy, compound movements. This will get you strong and if your diet is in order you will get bigger.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224

- Bill Starr 5x5 aka Madcow 5x5: I love this one. It's for an intermediate lifter and the focus of this program is to get you strong as quickly as possible. And it works.
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow...Linear_5x5.htm

- HST (Hypertrophy/Strength Training): I haven't personally lifted in this style but plenty of people swear by it. This should work well for someone looking for gains in both strength and hypertrophy (ie. getting both strong and bigger muscles).
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=280813
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=714401

- German Volume Training: I've ran this and even having lifted for years before I ran it I was sore as a dog after pretty much every workout. DOMS doesn't necessarily mean it's working, but this is a pretty rough ride. GVT is designed to primarily make you bigger (hypertrophy).
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/luis13.htm

- There are PLENTY of other programs. Here is a guide here, one of the stickies you SHOULD have already read...
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=113707701

- You should also venture out into the other sections, the Nutrition and Exercise ones especially (not so much the misc, you're better off not going there). I can promise you that you're going to learn a lot and help your progress if you do.

The gains you will make from 3 full body workouts a week are not even comparable to the gains you will get out of the protocol in question

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZZCPa71gQ0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8brhySqyDw

Also a cool way to run 5/3/1 is to go with BBB and switch the BBB lifts to the opposite day i.e. squat 5/3/1 + deadlift BBB, bench 5/3/1 + OHP BBB and the opposite of these.

Also a cool way to run 5/3/1 is to go with BBB and switch the BBB lifts to the opposite day i.e. squat 5/3/1 + deadlift BBB, bench 5/3/1 + OHP BBB and the opposite of these.

Well neither of us has anything concrete to show for the difference in efficiency, and he does mention the phsycological aspect of training in a way you prefer vs not. But let;s think about it. If you train a muscle 2x per week vs 1x per week, you should at least nearly double the duration of protein synthesis, no?

I imagine you are just picking at me, but 5/3/1 is more of a template to be tweaked to fit the trainee. Take the 3rd hand hearsay as you will, but I have seen people say that they have seen Wendler say that the way I mentioned is the way he trains himself, at least at times.

No it is, he does specifically say people should tweak it to suit them. I was keying off of your previous comments about beginner lifters not messing with programming when they don't know what they're doing.

As for the videos, he has a decent point, and maximizing protein synthesis is a valid concern, but he doesn't mention recovery time at all, or the fact that full body splits 3 times a week, depending on how much time you have, could leave certain muscle groups lacking. Beginners might not have the training capacity to hit bench for 15 sets at full intensity, but they might have the capacity to hit bench, ohp, incline, dips, and close grip. All of those exercises are fantastic for you, and if you're doing a full body workout every session you likely won't have time for them all.

yes i would recommend a true beginner running 5/3/1 should just run one of the templates as written for awhile before tweaking with the exception of swapping the BBB lifts as I mentioned. someone at that level doesn't really know what needs to be tweaked because they haven't made enough progress to have anything lagging anyway.

did you watch the entirety of both vids? i feel like he covered some of that although I haven;t watches the long one in awhile, and I don't think he advocates doing 3dfb forever. if you look at his novice 5x5, it does have accessory stuff thrown in, but the routines do look like they would take awhile to complete for someone who needs decent rest periods. i might have done it myself, but I can't spend that much time in the gym at the time of day I go.

But what makes the change you listed different from other changes is the point I'm getting at. Why do you (a self professed beginner) have the experience to select a viable alternative while someone else does not?

He does go over it, but states that the study which showed no difference between 2x per week and >2x per week probably couldn't see any measurable difference since the athletes were so advanced and gained muscle so slowly. It's a silly copout response. I'm not arguing that his suggestions aren't valid, they could work well (especially for a beginner). Also what makes 7 days such a magic number (besides the conveinence of everything working on a 7 day schedule)? What happens if you hit full body 3 times every 8 days? Every 6 days? Every 3 days? Is it the same magic seven day number for everybody?

My only claim, from the beginning, was that a push pull legs 'bro-split' can be extremely effective, particularly if you're looking to primarily maintain strength while supplementing with other activity (like, I don't know, triathlon training). That's the whole point, is that it's not a garbage split. It can work, and it can work well. Depending on time, your needs, and your current ability, it can work better than a beginner program like StrongLifts or Starting Strength.

As was stated in the article, all that matters in time under tension. Go in, work hard, hit your whole body throughout a designated cycle, and aim to do better than you did the last time. That can be done on an AB-style 5x5 workout, a UL split, a PPL split, a 7 day bodypart split, or on some crazy Russian protocol where you squat 16 times a day. There are good and bad versions of all of those styles of training, but they all have inherent benefits. Disregarding them out of hand because you had success with another protocol is short sighted.

both stronglifts and wendller are programs designed by powerlifters with powerlifting goals in mind. what do i do if i have zero interest in becoming a powerlifter?