Knees barely past toes with squats - is it really that bad?

I have seen a lot of threads on this topic at bodybuilding.com and it seems that this is the least of the concerns when it comes to squat form. The important thing is that you are spreading the floor with the heel to middle portion of your feet. Other than that if your form is solid then so be it. If the other form is causing you pain then it is probably not right, and definitely not right for you. As long as the right muscles are firing and you're not having abnormal pains then I would say you're doing something right.

I don't have any science to back it up but I doubt that at 30lbs max you'll really need to worry too much about form unless you either get so far out of whack that you lose the correct muscle tension or you decide to go heavy.

If you are doing standard back squats, then you knees have no choice but to move forwards.

I don't think mine go past the ends of my toes though so I'll give a couple of things that I do that helps me keep good form.


First, is on the way down I don't start to 'squat' right from the top. The first part of the motion it's as if I'm just sitting down on a chair that's behind me. Me lower legs stay dead straight up and it's just my *kitten* that rotates down. You'll get to a point where you can't go any further like that without losing balance and that's the point at which to allow your knees to drift forwards.

Second, is perhaps you have your legs too close together or too feet too straight forwards. A good squat has you sort of sitting between your legs, rather than behind them if that makes sense. It's difficult to explain I think, but you get there by as you drop having your knees go slightly more out to the side. Try, without weights, going down to the bottom of your squat. Now put your elbows in between your knees. Then push your knees outwards with your elbows and try to feel how your butt will probably shift position slightly so that it is more forwards, more between your legs, and you should see your knees will also be less far forward.

Also - if you decide you want to start working on your form - I would start with bodyweight squats until you're comfortable and confident you've got it right.

Those 2 things though, I've found, really help to get a good form, deep squat.

Perhaps you already have it right, but it's all about how much you are leaning/how far your toes go.

You will lean forwards a bit (there's no way you're gonna keep your back dead vertical)
You will have your knees move forwards.

It's just if you're leaning too far forwards with your knees overhanging your feet that it's clearly bad form.

From your description of what the guy was telling you though, I got the impression that his instructions would be more for the smith machine...

Personally, I wouldn't take advice from a man that squats on the smith machine.

THIS.

If you are doing standard back squats, then you knees have no choice but to move forwards.

I don't think mine go past the ends of my toes though so I'll give a couple of things that I do that helps me keep good form.


First, is on the way down I don't start to 'squat' right from the top. The first part of the motion it's as if I'm just sitting down on a chair that's behind me. Me lower legs stay dead straight up and it's just my *kitten* that rotates down. You'll get to a point where you can't go any further like that without losing balance and that's the point at which to allow your knees to drift forwards.

Second, is perhaps you have your legs too close together or too feet too straight forwards. A good squat has you sort of sitting between your legs, rather than behind them if that makes sense. It's difficult to explain I think, but you get there by as you drop having your knees go slightly more out to the side. Try, without weights, going down to the bottom of your squat. Now put your elbows in between your knees. Then push your knees outwards with your elbows and try to feel how your butt will probably shift position slightly so that it is more forwards, more between your legs, and you should see your knees will also be less far forward.

Also - if you decide you want to start working on your form - I would start with bodyweight squats until you're comfortable and confident you've got it right.

Those 2 things though, I've found, really help to get a good form, deep squat.

Perhaps you already have it right, but it's all about how much you are leaning/how far your toes go.

You will lean forwards a bit (there's no way you're gonna keep your back dead vertical)
You will have your knees move forwards.

It's just if you're leaning too far forwards with your knees overhanging your feet that it's clearly bad form.

From your description of what the guy was telling you though, I got the impression that his instructions would be more for the smith machine...

Yes--the "knees can't go over the toes" direction is outdated and often misguided. It's more important that you have the weight centered over your mid foot and that the angle of the back is parallel to the angle of the tibia (shins).

My knees pass my toes, they haven't broken yet.

I squat with my feet angled 30ish degrees, under my shoulders. Knees go _out_ over the foot, which means my legs, if you look down at them, form a V shape. My knees are not going straight forward but out over those angled feet, keeping the knees out and wide. I also have a forward lean as I rack the bar low, but I do not have a relaxed spinal position (curved back). This is all Starting Strength/Rippetoe style back squatting. I find this really engages the hammies as well as quads. It should not cause knee pain as your knees are staying in alignment with the feet this way. No back pain, either.

It sounds like you might not flexible enough in the achilles area. When you squat down, your heels should not come up at all. When you come up, you should be pushing with your entire foot...with a lot of power being generated by the heel. Knees coming forward can be a sign that your heels are coming up, and the lack of balance could be due to the weight pushing the heels back down. My advice would be to keep the weights light until you develop the flexibility to squat properly.

He lost all credibility when he said smith machine. If you're having problems with form ask a trainer to watch you.

I'd be interested in the answers to some of these questions. I've always been told, and read that knees over toes is bad, but recently someone here (someone who is generally knowledgable about fitness) said that's not always correct.

I also read somewhere else on here that "a*s to grass" squats are bad for the knees, however I've always done *kitten* to grass squats, and not had any knee problems. I'd be interested to know if that's correct, seeing as so many books, instructional videos etc include atg squats. I prefer atg squats, and the maximum range of motion generally for any exercise.

Regards keeping your balance - I have this problem if I do squats with my feet too close together. For bodyweight squats I can *just about* balance in a squat position (a*s to grass) with my feet shoulder width apart, if I stretch my arms out in front of me, even then I'm only just balanced, and have never tried a barbell squat with my feet this close together, even if I hold my hands by my shoulders as if holding an imaginary barbell I fall backwards. So no point even attempting it with a barbell. However i if I keep my stance wide, a bit further than shoulder width apart (but not as wide as an actual wide stance squat), I can maintain my balance just fine and I'm currently doing 80lb+ for reps without any problems balancing. I'm sure body proportions have a lot to do with this, I'm 5'1" with short legs and a large frame, I actually have very good balance, I can do one leg deadlifts with no balance difficulties and I used to play ice hockey, and I don't have joint mobility problems either, just that I have short legs and a large frame and my centre of gravity is too far back to balance in a squat position with my feet in front of my body (as opposed to either side of it, as in a wider stance squat). I can't do pistol squats for the same reason.