Cant gain muscle while at a deficit?

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  • 3dogsrunning
    3dogsrunning Posts: 27,167 Member
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    I have a year of weight loss and increased muscles that disagree with having to eat at a deficit to gain muscles. Perhaps it is a difference in the definition of muscles?

    The difference is not in the definition if muscles. It's in the definition of gains or increase in muscles. If you been in a deficit, you didn't gain new muscle tissue as defined by hypertrophy. (with the exception of newbie gains) You developed and enlarged the muscles you already had that were underdeveloped or atrophied.

    Got it, this makes sense, I haven't increased my muscle mass I just developed the muscle that was already in my body. At least I think that is what you are saying? Thanks that helps me understand when people talk about not gaining muscle on a deficit.

    And you've lost some of the fat over the top of the muscles, so they are easier to see, i.e. defined.


    ETA - great explanation by neadermagnon.
  • liftingbro
    liftingbro Posts: 2,029 Member
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    Also forgot to mention that as you become "trained" (meaning you've been lifting for long enough to build up some endurance) you increase the amount of glycogen you are capable of storing and with that comes more potential water weight. After a month or so you should level off and it shouldn't be as much of an issue. Trained muscle stores more glycogen and this is also the reason people see quick strength/endurance gaines when they first start out. Glycogen is the energy source for muscle during exercise so the more you are able to store the more weight and more reps you will be able to do.
  • BflSaberfan
    BflSaberfan Posts: 1,272
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    increases in the amount of glycogen your muscles store, and water retention in the muscle repair process, leads to water weight gain (this is good and healthy) - that goes on at the same time as you lose fat... you lose inches but your weight stays the same, as the weight of the fat you lost, is offset by the weight of the water you gained.

    This goes on for a while, but if you carry on the way you are, the water weight gains stop and you carry on losing fat, and your scale weight goes down.

    Additionally, as someone said above (the poster who asked her sister) - if you go from sedentary to active, your muscles may actually grow a little (because they were a little wasted before due to being sedentary), and your bones also will be getting denser. Everyone forgets about bone density, but if you go from sedentary to doing weight bearing exercises, providing you're eating well enough to feed your body (i.e. a sensible deficit, plus in this case enough calcium) your bones get denser. Denser = heavier for its volume, i.e. your bones stay the same size but get heavier.

    In order to gain muscle mass, i.e. grow new muscle fibres, you need to be eating at a calorie surplus, and eating plenty of protein, otherwise your body does not have the energy or protein to grow the new fibres.

    There are occasional exceptions to this.... i.e. newbie gains (when someone goes from sedentary to working out a lot), and muscle memory - this is where someone had more muscle before, but lost it, e.g. due to being sedentary or due to loss of lean mass from crash dieting - in these cases you may see some gain in actual muscle mass in spite of eating at a deficit... these things are short lived though, i.e. the gains will stop after a while.

    Interesting you mention this, I was going to ask about muscle memory. I was working out 5 days a week about a year ago (doing insanity and the gym like I am now) I got lazy for a year, but within a month of starting back up again I am seeing those muscles pop back out again in a shorter time than it took me to see them when I started over two years ago. I didn't think "muscle memory" existed but I felt like I had jump started my body again once I started working out again, I felt it and saw it - I also did not feel like I was "starting over" but picking up where I left off. I am sure I lost some LBM over the course of the year but perhaps not much.....very interesting.


    To a previous poster, I dont think I'm miscalculating my calories or over eating because I am smaller and have lost inches so I know its "working" just not on the scale.
  • monty619
    monty619 Posts: 1,308 Member
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    because more contributes to weight besides muscle and fat... such as glycogen (water weight), food volume intake, and even bone density..

    for beginners, or the obese you can gain skeletal muscle while in a deficit but for most people who have been training its near impossible.. you can get STRONGER because that is an adaptation of the nervous system but as for actual muscle tissue its not gonna happen.
  • cappri
    cappri Posts: 1,089 Member
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    To a previous poster, I dont think I'm miscalculating my calories or over eating because I am smaller and have lost inches so I know its "working" just not on the scale.

    Pretty much the whole month of February and really most of January, I didn't lose any weight, but I did lose 2 inches off my waist and 1.25 off my hips. Perhaps I wasn't increasing my ab muscles, but I was certainly developing and uncovering them. In March I began consciously increasing my protein intake, I didn't change my calorie goal, and the scale has started moving downward once again.
  • liftingbro
    liftingbro Posts: 2,029 Member
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    because more contributes to weight besides muscle and fat... such as glycogen (water weight), food volume intake, and even bone density..

    for beginners, or the obese you can gain skeletal muscle while in a deficit but for most people who have been training its near impossible.. you can get STRONGER because that is an adaptation of the nervous system but as for actual muscle tissue its not gonna happen.

    Yes, don;'t confuse strength gains with gains in muscle mass. When you first start lifting you are not very efficient at recruiting fast twitch muscl fibers (those most respnsible for strength). As you train you become much more efficient at recruiting fat twitch fibers. So basically, without gaining any muscle mass, you simply become stronger because you are able to use more of the fast twitch fibers that you already had.
  • mamasmaltz3
    mamasmaltz3 Posts: 1,111 Member
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    Great article that was posted in the forums that finally made the light bulb go off for me. Thanks for posting it SideSteel.

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html
  • BflSaberfan
    BflSaberfan Posts: 1,272
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    Great article that was posted in the forums that finally made the light bulb go off for me. Thanks for posting it SideSteel.

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

    That article was awesome! Thank you so much!
  • jennifeffer
    jennifeffer Posts: 98 Member
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    I've been watching the Biggest Loser this season and one of the girls, Danni, had lost 95 pounds by last week but she had gained 19 pounds of muscle. They said they had never seen this before on the show and the Dr. checked the results three times. I'm no expert in this field either but I believe you can build muscle while losing fat. I see it in my own body, but I really don't have a way to quantify it on myself..........:)
  • sullus
    sullus Posts: 2,839 Member
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    ...
    To gain muscle(esp for a female) you need to be eating at a surplus of calories, and lifting heavy. You can't build muscle(IE new muscle tissue) if there is no extra calories to help stimulate that growth. If your eating 1700 calories, burn off 500, your body only has 1200 calories left to make your brain/heart function, help with digestion, repair muscles etc. You can't expect it to use those calories for muscle building, when basic bodily functions are not being supported.
    ...

    I don't agree with this. Way Oversimplified: To build muscle it takes 2 things - energy and protein. As long as your protein is up, it's possible to build muscle while eating a deficit and losing fat. In the food example above, your food calories are not going to provide the energy for the muscles to use the protein to repair themselves. However, your stored fat calories can provide that energy. If there's not enough caloric energy in your body to run any process, your body will go break down fat in order to obtain energy.

    The point here is - you dont need to eat a surplus of calories, since you've stored surplus calories in body fat over time. This is a totally valid source of energy to run the muscle building process - just lift and add protein.

    "You can't build muscle on a caloric deficit" may be true for people at or near optimal body fat percentage, but for guys like me who started at 300+ and 35% body fat well there's plenty of fat to go to for energy .. The more weight you lose, the more true "You can't build muscle on a caloric deficit" becomes.
  • 3dogsrunning
    3dogsrunning Posts: 27,167 Member
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    I've been watching the Biggest Loser this season and one of the girls, Danni, had lost 95 pounds by last week but she had gained 19 pounds of muscle. They said they had never seen this before on the show and the Dr. checked the results three times. I'm no expert in this field either but I believe you can build muscle while losing fat. I see it in my own body, but I really don't have a way to quantify it on myself..........:)

    There are exceptions to the rule, like people with a lot of weight to lose, however, Danni is being hotly debated. I won't derail the thread with that debate, there are several topics on it already but what she did is pretty unbelievable and some people say impossible. A lot question the methods used to measure her.
  • Spartan_Maker
    Spartan_Maker Posts: 683 Member
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    Great article that was posted in the forums that finally made the light bulb go off for me. Thanks for posting it SideSteel.

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

    Yes, it's a good article. I was one of those people who was able to do it, to a significant degree, because it developed like a perfect storm: athletic and lean for most of my life, followed by a period of morbid obesity, insulin resistance, and detrained condition.

    I'd even take it one step further: for people who are especially athletic, recomp is easy at maintenance.
  • BflSaberfan
    BflSaberfan Posts: 1,272
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    Great article that was posted in the forums that finally made the light bulb go off for me. Thanks for posting it SideSteel.

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

    Yes, it's a good article. I was one of those people who was able to do it, to a significant degree, because it developed like a perfect storm: athletic and lean for most of my life, followed by a period of morbid obesity, insulin resistance, and detrained condition.

    I'd even take it one step further: for people who are especially athletic, recomp is easy at maintenance.

    I've been amazed at the inches I've lost and muscles reappearing after only about 5 weeks back into it, (after 1 year off) I'm pleasantly surprised - it took me a very long time to have these results the first time I started working out a few years ago.
  • Spartan_Maker
    Spartan_Maker Posts: 683 Member
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    Great article that was posted in the forums that finally made the light bulb go off for me. Thanks for posting it SideSteel.

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

    Yes, it's a good article. I was one of those people who was able to do it, to a significant degree, because it developed like a perfect storm: athletic and lean for most of my life, followed by a period of morbid obesity, insulin resistance, and detrained condition.

    I'd even take it one step further: for people who are especially athletic, recomp is easy at maintenance.

    I've been amazed at the inches I've lost and muscles reappearing after only about 5 weeks back into it, (after 1 year off) I'm pleasantly surprised - it took me a very long time to have these results the first time I started working out a few years ago.

    Yes: my data showed it happening most during the first 8 months. I've lost some connective tissue along the way because my body (I suppose), just doesn't need it like it did 128 lbs. ago. At leaner levels, you may find yourself losing some muscle mass -- the process is dynamic.
  • wareagle8706
    wareagle8706 Posts: 1,090 Member
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    I'm so confused about this, if you cannot gain muscle at a deficit how come when the scale doesn't move we are told to take measurements instead?

    I haven't lost anything in almost 2 weeks but I am losing inches, especially in my stomach. How is this possible to be smaller without losing anything on the scale, if you cant gain muscle while at a deficit

    I am lifting 3 days a week and doing insanity 3 days a week. Eating between 1500-1700 calories.

    I :heart: you. Finally someone asking intelligent questions of the people who claim to know everything.
  • ncl1313
    ncl1313 Posts: 237 Member
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    I definitely think it comes down to your starting shape and where you want to be. I'm obese. By eating at a deficit and weight training, I know I'm building up my muscles (because I can see and feel it happening) and am losing fat (both in inches and on the scale) because I have plenty of fat stores to lose. I know that once I've lost even 10% of my body weight, I likely won't see those results continue, especially not at the same rate. This is why it's recommended to reassess your plan every so often to make sure you are meeting your current goals. My current goal is simply not to be so fat and flabby. Later my goal may be to have Linda Hamilton Terminator 2 arms. If, in the meantime, I can go from only being able to bench 50 pounds to being able to bench 80 pounds, AWESOME.
  • wareagle8706
    wareagle8706 Posts: 1,090 Member
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    I eat at a deficit all the time. ALL the time. And I gain new muscle ALL the time. I get adequate protein to support my bodily functions as well as my muscle growth. Is it slower muscle gains than someone who is bulking? Yes. But is it gain nonetheless? Yes.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    I have a year of weight loss and increased muscles that disagree with having to eat at a deficit to gain muscles. Perhaps it is a difference in the definition of muscles?

    The difference is not in the definition if muscles. It's in the definition of gains or increase in muscles. If you been in a deficit, you didn't gain new muscle tissue as defined by hypertrophy. (with the exception of newbie gains) You developed and enlarged the muscles you already had that were underdeveloped or atrophied.

    Got it, this makes sense, I haven't increased my muscle mass I just developed the muscle that was already in my body. At least I think that is what you are saying? Thanks that helps me understand when people talk about not gaining muscle on a deficit.

    Yup, that is it! And as Ironplayground pointed out, people can increase thier lean mass with strength training because it increases things like bone density and connective tissue, Also, the retaining of intramusclar fluid/ glycogen stores can give the appearance of larger muscles.
  • EricCowperthwaite
    EricCowperthwaite Posts: 450
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    sullus said:
    To build muscle it takes 2 things - energy and protein. As long as your protein is up, it's possible to build muscle while eating a deficit and losing fat. In the food example above, your food calories are not going to provide the energy for the muscles to use the protein to repair themselves. However, your stored fat calories can provide that energy. If there's not enough caloric energy in your body to run any process, your body will go break down fat in order to obtain energy.
    This is true ... entirely true. It's also why low carb, high fat diets work. And frankly, I'm doing it right now. I eat at a deficit, I eat very low carbs, moderate protein and high fat. I drop inches off my abdomen and waist, and add inches on my neck and biceps. I am clearly adding muscle, not just retraining my fast twitch muscles, and burning fat. I take measurements every two weeks, same day, same time, and the day after my Day 3 cardio, not after resistance training.

    Bottom line, it is entirely possible to eat at a caloric deficit and use resistance training to build muscle. As long as you have adequate body fat to provide you with the energy needed by depleting your body fat storage and converting the fat to ketones that can be used for energy.

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