I'm conflicted about "Fat Acceptance" morally.. I find

I say "What gives anyone the right to judge anyone?"

Unfortunately, it also means that costs of healthcare rise and everyone else bears the burden of those that chose not to take care of themselves. We don't live in a perfect world and I understand how people feel but why should anyone "accept" a condition that is curable? The problem is multi-pronged. The easiest solution would be for unhealthy people to pay more for healthcare but that doesn't work either because, in the current system, once you get healthy you are continually penalized for your health history. Also, it doesn't work because some people become unhealthy through no fault of their own. The best possible solution is the promotion and reward of healthier life styles.

"Fat acceptance" is all about not judging bodies that do not belong to you.

There is nothing morally conflicting about that. If you don't like how somebody else looks, don't look. Weight does not equal health. You are not responsible for anyone but yourself. Encouraging people to feel good about themselves no matter what their weight is, is tremendously positive. It's not about preaching "you don't need to lose weight!" It about preaching "You are worthy just as you are".

Then why is there not "Tobacco Acceptance" or "Alcohol Acceptance" as well? Why are all life choices not praised for us being who we want to be? Clearly, there must be other factors into why it is not socially 'acceptable' to be fat. And telling someone they are physically unhealthy does NOT mean they are unworthy as an individual. I think a lot of pro-Acceptance people here are missing that point.

You could make the argument that tobacco acceptance was widely popular for years. Cigarrettes used to be seen as healthy and a way to get greater social status. Heck, watch t.v. and all of the beer commercials that pop up - alcohol use is pretty well accepted too.

In some cultures, being overweight is considered an ideal. Heck, even in our own history society has praised curvy and voluptuous shapes. In cultures where food is scarce, being overweight conveys the notion that the person is higher up on the social ladder and/or has money and power. Perspective is a funny thing.

Times and tastes change, but assuming that someone who is overweight must be unhappy with themselves or unhealthy is a bit presumptive. It could even be seen as a practice in projection of one's own ideas/morals/values onto others. Some people may genuinely feel good about themselves as they are.

I know that the United States (and a handful of other countries) have an obsession with skinniness, and I often daydream about what it would be like to live in a country where being plump-- even fat-- would make me a goddess instead of repulsive.

However, even in these countries, you rarely see anyone topping 4 or 500 pounds the way this woman is. In third world countries, people have to walk farther (probably don't even own a car), work longer hours in more grueling conditions, have more children, and have far less access to specialty foods we take for granted, such as ice cream or Coke. So even if someone is a little pudgy around the middle, that's probably all it will be-- a pudge. That is a far cry from being morbidly obese.

And in this country there is an obsession with thinness because it seems like an impossible ideal as we are surrounded with excesses. But if you're interested, here's a list of countries where fat is seen as attractive, and not all of them are third world.

http://www.futurescopes.com/finding-date/9409/countries-where-being-fat-attractive

Some highlights from this list that aren't in the third world - South Africa, Kuwait, and Tonga.

Thanks for the link, I'm reading it now.

I say "What gives anyone the right to judge anyone?"

No one. However, people judging other people happens every second of every day, and you do it too. People who say "I don't judge" are delusional. Whether we want to or not we are constantly making snap judgements of others. The difference lies in whether we choose to express those judgements or keep them private, and if we do express them, then what methods and tact (or lack thereof) we choose to employ.

This is why no one has invented mind-reading techniques-- because after the first three seconds of giddiness, it would quickly turn into the worst invention ever.

I'm not conflicted about it. There is a lot more to obesity than we understand. It isn't entirely a matter of choice. So I give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I also have a great deal of respect for people who try their very best to overcome difficult conditions to be healthier. I realize that not everyone can have a BMI below 30. Most people can at least improve their BMI and find ways to exercise. So I respect the effort, whether the result is being "thin" or not.

I am really not trying to be mean when I say this, because I appreciate the honesty of your responses, but-- I'm sorry, I cannot get behind the fact that complimenting someone for losing weight is harmful to them emotionally.

Wether or not you "get behind the fact," I know from very personal experience that it happens. But I won't get into that.

To me, weight is directly correlated to health. I realize that you don't have to be thin to be healthy-- far from it. And if I saw an already-thin person in my life continuing to lose, that would concern me. But for me personally? I am a whopping 80 pounds away from my ideal weight. That is the size of an elementary-school child. An entire person. And even if I only had 20 pounds I wanted to lose, that's still fat that you're getting rid of. Less body fat means you're less likely to develop heart health and blood pressure issues.

The problem: health is not directly correlated with happiness. People imply that one will be happier when they lose weight. That doesn't necessarily happen. Also: your personal goals (losing 80 pounds, which, ironically, is also what I have left to lose) are not the personal goals for everybody. Maybe you think a person would look better if they lost weight, but that's your opinion, and they are allowed to do what they want, and shouldn't be shamed for that.

Why is it so offensive to recognize that once we lose weight, we are healthier, and therefore "better" on a purely physical level? Attractiveness has nothing to do with it, really. When I compliment someone for losing weight it is because I am happy for their personal health victory, and appearance is secondary. When someone compliments me for my weight loss efforts (because I have a tendency to brag a bit about fitting into smaller size clothing), I take it as recognition of my hard work. Why should I be offended at that? I AM better now than I was 24 pounds ago. I am better now than I was when I was nearly 300 pounds. Not better as a person, but better physically. I can lift more, run without getting as easily winded, and walk for miles. I am wearing a pants size that I haven't since high school.

Attractiveness has everything to do with it. You literally said you won't compliment a fat person (unless they were dressed up nice) because you would be "lying." I had one commenter on here tell me that, when I reach my goal weight, I'm going to be beating away the guys with a stick. I now have to be skinny to find a man? Losing weight is very often driven by appearance. I associate with the FA movement but as a teenager, I talk to my crush and wonder if we'd already be dating if I were "skinny." I think this because society teaches me to think this. We absolutely correlate weight and appearance, and if a model gained 200 pounds, she would not be pretty anymore. Hell, if a celebrity gains 5 pounds, they don't hear the end of it. Fat shaming infiltrates every aspect of my life, and appearance is one of the biggest.

Of course people are still going to think of me as fat, because they don't realize that I've already lost close to 60 pounds. But that doesn't bother me. Even at my goal weight there will still be people who will make offensive snap judgements of me, even in their heads. But why should that bother me? If you let the opinions of others dominate your life then you're not living your life for the most important person-- you!

See, I do agree with you here. It shouldn't matter what others think! I tell people that all the time, and I tell myself that all the time. But I'm a social person and I've learned that it DOES matter, when making friends and socializing, which rubs off on my behavior and attitudes and beliefs. I wish I could shed that and start "being myself" and not caring, but people fat shame and tell me to lose weight and if I don't care about my weight, and don't let their comments bother me (like you said), I'm lazy and selfish and wait, what? What happened to not letting it bother me?

Of course it bothers me when people tell me to lose weight. Sadly, that's one reason why I'm losing weight. I'm treated better now that I weigh 240 pounds, compared to when I weighed 320. I will be treated better when I weigh 160 pounds compared to now. Of course I want to be treated better. But I wish this weren't the way to make it happen.

Now if this were a thread with a very "fit, muscular" woman and people posting things like "EWWW", The anti- body shaming crowd would be all over this thread. This is a perfect example of how it is still acceptable to some of you to body shame the obese.


I am not for fat acceptance, per se but my sister runs a fabulous fashion blog of plus sized women. She doesn't encourage anyone to be fat, in fact I got her going to the gym with me trying to be healthy. She posts photos of herself (a tall and curvy size 14/16) and other women who are absolutley stunning. And fashionable. My sister is also 17, and posseses more confidence than I ever have in my life and reaches out to many self conscious girls of all sizes. Her blogs states "I do not need to be your idea of beauty to truly be beautiful." I think that is great message to send.

http://thatfatredhead.tumblr.com/

I am not sure what you are actually saying.

Fat Acceptance/health at every size -- is definitely about breaking down stereotypes people have of overweight people. Here's one instance in which Wikipedia does a good job: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement

I am saying that morbid obesity and super morbid obesity are problematic and leading to a potential and probable maasive health crisis in the U.S. and likely the U.K. will follow.

The FA movement has a chilling and narcissistic tendency to try to stifle the discussion of this very important topic by accusing people who discuss the topic of being "fattist". They might not do it all the time and it may not be the only thing they do but they do it enough that it is the only thing I've seen them do.

So these are incredibly limited descriptions that intentionally ignore the issues with FA that have been raised here:

There is nothing that prevents a moderately overweight person from living a totally productive life -- aside from how others treat them. Period. That is what fat acceptance is about.

Fat Acceptance/health at every size -- is definitely about breaking down stereotypes people have of overweight people. Here's one instance in which Wikipedia does a good job: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement

I think everybody here would be fine with both of these mission statements.

I ate a McDonalds yesterday, I ate pizza hut 3 times in the last 2 weeks, but I have maintained my frame because I eat everything in moderation and make smart choices the rest of the time.
I just want to shake people who say they don't like salads, etc. so they can't go on a diet. It's ridiculous.

I'm sorry to say I was one of those people! For years I accepted my ever expanding waistline as a consequence of getting older and thought of dieting as steamed vegetables and fish. No more junk food forever. I thought, what's the point of looking good if I'm going to be miserable?
It wasn't till I found this site and starting reading up about weight loss that I realised I can still eat all the garbage I love as long as I budget for it and keep under my calorie/fat quota for the day.

Attractiveness has everything to do with it. You literally said you won't compliment a fat person (unless they were dressed up nice) because you would be "lying." I had one commenter on here tell me that, when I reach my goal weight, I'm going to be beating away the guys with a stick. I now have to be skinny to find a man? Losing weight is very often driven by appearance. I associate with the FA movement but as a teenager, I talk to my crush and wonder if we'd already be dating if I were "skinny." I think this because society teaches me to think this. We absolutely correlate weight and appearance, and if a model gained 200 pounds, she would not be pretty anymore. Hell, if a celebrity gains 5 pounds, they don't hear the end of it. Fat shaming infiltrates every aspect of my life, and appearance is one of the biggest.

You're still misunderstanding WHY I don't compliment a fat person-- it is NOT because of how they look. Frankly, I thought my boyfriend looked like a weirdo when I first met him, and I'm sure he didn't exactly find me gorgeous. Physical beauty is not only fleeting, but it doesn't matter. If it did, I would be all over this Fat Acceptance thing, because as I said in my first post here-- the model in this picture IS beautiful to me. The reason why I don't compliment fat people is because I don't want them to feel comfortable being fat for health reasons. I don't shame anyone for their looks and I never will, but I'm not going to praise someone who looks like they could drop dead of a heart attack if they don't change their behavior!

Of course it bothers me when people tell me to lose weight. Sadly, that's one reason why I'm losing weight. I'm treated better now that I weigh 240 pounds, compared to when I weighed 320. I will be treated better when I weigh 160 pounds compared to now. Of course I want to be treated better. But I wish this weren't the way to make it happen.

I am absolutely doing this for other people, secondary to myself. I'm doing it for those I love, like my boyfriend and my dad and brother, but I'm also doing it for all the people who have looked at me and not given me a second look because I'm fat. Is that a healthy attitude? Probably not, but you can't say it isn't motivating! If people kept telling me I'm beautiful the way I am, I would never have a reason to lose weight because I would have convinced myself I didn't need to. Then I would still be unhealthy, and continuing to get fatter instead of striving for a healthy lifestyle.

"Fat acceptance" is all about not judging bodies that do not belong to you.

There is nothing morally conflicting about that. If you don't like how somebody else looks, don't look. Weight does not equal health. You are not responsible for anyone but yourself. Encouraging people to feel good about themselves no matter what their weight is, is tremendously positive. It's not about preaching "you don't need to lose weight!" It about preaching "You are worthy just as you are".

Then why is there not "Tobacco Acceptance" or "Alcohol Acceptance" as well? Why are all life choices not praised for us being who we want to be? Clearly, there must be other factors into why it is not socially 'acceptable' to be fat. And telling someone they are physically unhealthy does NOT mean they are unworthy as an individual. I think a lot of pro-Acceptance people here are missing that point.

My boyfriend suffers from major depression. Do I tell him he's worthless? Of course not-- if I thought that, I wouldn't even be with him. But am I going to tell him he's perfectly fine the way he is, and accept him staying in bed all day? Again, of course not. If something is affecting the physical or mental health of someone I love I will speak up about it, BECAUSE I love them. Helping someone face their bad decisions and overcome them is, if anything, the most crucial part of accepting them... because you're willing to support them right now, AND to help motivate them to improve. My boyfriend does the same with me, with my journey to lose weight and overcome anger issues. We accept each other for who we are, but that doesn't mean we have to accept the fact that we can never be better than we are right now!

First all off, not all people who are "fat" are addicted to food. People addicted to alcohol and drugs actually ARE addicts. So please stop using that analogy, it's not as clever as you think.

I'm not 'being clever'. We are not discussing people who are 20 pounds overweight, or even 40. This woman is most likely between 4 and 500 pounds. She did not get to this weight by not being addicted to food in some way, although it's amusing that you seem to find that possible. She didn't wake up one day and go "Oh crap, I put on 300 pounds overnight!" Even if she has some major health issues that left her bedridden in a hospital for months (which doesn't seem likely given that she is apparently healthy enough to pose for softcore porn), that doesn't just excuse a lifetime of poor eating.

Second, weight does not equal health. There are very recent studies (published in the JAMA -- which is about as credible as you can get) the seem to show being "fat" as defined as moderately overweight live longer than their thin counterparts. Here, read: http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1555137

There is nothing that prevents a moderately overweight person from living a totally productive life -- aside from how others treat them. Period. That is what fat acceptance is about. You are, presumably, not a medical doctor. Other people's health is not your concern. You are making lifestyle and health assumptions based on appearance alone. Not cool. Also assuming that thin is "better" also isn't cool.

When did I ever say that being 'thin' was better? Oh, that's right... nowhere. I have been talking about health, and health alone. The definition of a healthy weight varies from person to person, and no one has to stay at a specific number on the scale their entire life to be healthy. Again, we are not talking about "moderately overweight", we are talking about people who are 2-300 pounds overweight. That is not 'moderate' by any stretch of the imagination.

Um, fat acceptance is an entire movement that encompasses many body types not just the one pictured. Also, do you know the woman pictured personally? You have NO idea how or what she eats. You are making a LOT of assumptions. LOTS. You don't know her medical history. You don't know if she eats to maintain this size to have work, therefore money to feed her family. She might just like the taste of food.

And you clearly do seem to think thinness is better because you seem to think thinness = health. It does not. Also, the health of other people is NOT your concern. Your concern is unnecessary and misguided. What is it to YOU what I weigh? Is your life positively affected because you are talking to me and I am a "health" weight. No. Don't think so.

Honey, you are just full of the hangry today. How many times do I have to say that I am not advocating being 'thin'? So what if you have a little tummy pooch. So what if you have a double chin. So what if you have cankles, chubby underarms, a big butt, or "thunder thighs". I may have all these things even at my goal weight! I specifically said that healthy weights vary from person to person. It would behoove you to actually read my posts instead of jumping to create ludicrous scenarios for a stranger (feeding her family? really? how is that not an assumption of your own?) instead of admitting that you are taking this too far.

P.S. "Liking the taste of food", in excess, is an eating disorder. I am making an assumption here but I highly, highly doubt that if this woman was eating less than 3,000 calories a day, that she would be at the weight she is in this picture. It is possible to like the taste of food too much, and that is where the addiction comes in.

It is no fun being fat, not fitting in your clothes, embarassment, not having a boyfriend or finding a job. Not that it is right, but it is the way it is. I am so glad there are sites like this to help people and not criticize people.

I had skinny parents who put me down but never helped me. Helping people, walking, bicycling with them and especially someone who has been fat showing what they did to lose the weight. Teaching someone how to deal with life and not overeat. By not being mean to fat people, but helping them. I really dont care if my friends are fat myself but I know how mean people can be to them and I dont want them to die so fat acceptance is not ok but helping them to a healthy life is where it is at. That is how I would want to be treated and somone at my gym told me about this site when I was discouraged and I hope I can help others to accept they can be healthy.

What I am getting from almost every single one of these posts so far:

"If you're fat, you don't deserve to be happy or loved or confident. You will never be happy until you lose weight. In fact, if you're fat, you don't even deserve to be treated like a human being -- you're just a sack of gooey, yellow sludge who takes up too much room on the sidewalk and is a burden to rest of us taxpayers. I know you're lying about being really happy, because all that fat inhibits your emotions. Are you sure you're not confusing happiness with laziness? Or maybe that swell of pride in your chest is really just an oncoming heart attack. And no offense, but I think you're disgusting, and I can get away with saying this because I was once a fat piece of **** too! Now, I've lost a few pounds, and everything is rainbows and unicorns!! PS: I'm just saying this because I care though. I couldn't care less about your feelings or rights as a human being, but damn I sure do care about your health."

"Fat acceptance" is all about not judging bodies that do not belong to you.

There is nothing morally conflicting about that. If you don't like how somebody else looks, don't look. Weight does not equal health. You are not responsible for anyone but yourself. Encouraging people to feel good about themselves no matter what their weight is, is tremendously positive. It's not about preaching "you don't need to lose weight!" It about preaching "You are worthy just as you are".

Then why is there not "Tobacco Acceptance" or "Alcohol Acceptance" as well? Why are all life choices not praised for us being who we want to be? Clearly, there must be other factors into why it is not socially 'acceptable' to be fat. And telling someone they are physically unhealthy does NOT mean they are unworthy as an individual. I think a lot of pro-Acceptance people here are missing that point.

My boyfriend suffers from major depression. Do I tell him he's worthless? Of course not-- if I thought that, I wouldn't even be with him. But am I going to tell him he's perfectly fine the way he is, and accept him staying in bed all day? Again, of course not. If something is affecting the physical or mental health of someone I love I will speak up about it, BECAUSE I love them. Helping someone face their bad decisions and overcome them is, if anything, the most crucial part of accepting them... because you're willing to support them right now, AND to help motivate them to improve. My boyfriend does the same with me, with my journey to lose weight and overcome anger issues. We accept each other for who we are, but that doesn't mean we have to accept the fact that we can never be better than we are right now!

First all off, not all people who are "fat" are addicted to food. People addicted to alcohol and drugs actually ARE addicts. So please stop using that analogy, it's not as clever as you think.

I'm not 'being clever'. We are not discussing people who are 20 pounds overweight, or even 40. This woman is most likely between 4 and 500 pounds. She did not get to this weight by not being addicted to food in some way, although it's amusing that you seem to find that possible. She didn't wake up one day and go "Oh crap, I put on 300 pounds overnight!" Even if she has some major health issues that left her bedridden in a hospital for months (which doesn't seem likely given that she is apparently healthy enough to pose for softcore porn), that doesn't just excuse a lifetime of poor eating.

Second, weight does not equal health. There are very recent studies (published in the JAMA -- which is about as credible as you can get) the seem to show being "fat" as defined as moderately overweight live longer than their thin counterparts. Here, read: http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1555137

There is nothing that prevents a moderately overweight person from living a totally productive life -- aside from how others treat them. Period. That is what fat acceptance is about. You are, presumably, not a medical doctor. Other people's health is not your concern. You are making lifestyle and health assumptions based on appearance alone. Not cool. Also assuming that thin is "better" also isn't cool.

When did I ever say that being 'thin' was better? Oh, that's right... nowhere. I have been talking about health, and health alone. The definition of a healthy weight varies from person to person, and no one has to stay at a specific number on the scale their entire life to be healthy. Again, we are not talking about "moderately overweight", we are talking about people who are 2-300 pounds overweight. That is not 'moderate' by any stretch of the imagination.

Um, fat acceptance is an entire movement that encompasses many body types not just the one pictured. Also, do you know the woman pictured personally? You have NO idea how or what she eats. You are making a LOT of assumptions. LOTS. You don't know her medical history. You don't know if she eats to maintain this size to have work, therefore money to feed her family. She might just like the taste of food.

And you clearly do seem to think thinness is better because you seem to think thinness = health. It does not. Also, the health of other people is NOT your concern. Your concern is unnecessary and misguided. What is it to YOU what I weigh? Is your life positively affected because you are talking to me and I am a "health" weight. No. Don't think so.

Honey, you are just full of the hangry today. How many times do I have to say that I am not advocating being 'thin'? So what if you have a little tummy pooch. So what if you have a double chin. So what if you have cankles, chubby underarms, a big butt, or "thunder thighs". I may have all these things even at my goal weight! I specifically said that healthy weights vary from person to person. It would behoove you to actually read my posts instead of jumping to create ludicrous scenarios for a stranger (feeding her family? really? how is that not an assumption of your own?) instead of admitting that you are taking this too far.

P.S. "Liking the taste of food", in excess, is an eating disorder. I am making an assumption here but I highly, highly doubt that if this woman was eating less than 3,000 calories a day, that she would be at the weight she is in this picture. It is possible to like the taste of food too much, and that is where the addiction comes in.

You know, this conversation is pointless. Thanks for your time.

What I am getting from almost every single one of these posts so far:

"If you're fat, you don't deserve to be happy or loved or confident. You will never be happy until you lose weight. In fact, if you're fat, you don't even deserve to be treated like a human being -- you're just a sack of gooey, yellow sludge who takes up too much room on the sidewalk and is a burden to rest of us taxpayers. I know you're lying about being really happy, because all that fat inhibits your emotions. Are you sure you're not confusing happiness with laziness? Or maybe that swell of pride in your chest is really just an oncoming heart attack. And no offense, but I think you're disgusting, and I can get away with saying this because I was once a fat piece of **** too! Now, I've lost a few pounds, and everything is rainbows and unicorns!! PS: I'm just saying this because I care though. I couldn't care less about your feelings or rights as a human being, but damn I sure do care about your health."

Mm. Thanks for summing up everyone's posts into a well-thought-out, rational, non-attacking response. You clearly have an understanding of all of us as individuals.