Confused about lifting and weight loss

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  • sweetzoejane
    sweetzoejane Posts: 153 Member
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    As someone who has done SL as a beginner, I really would not recommend it for a beginner. The focus of the program is building strength very quickly. As a beginner, you should be focusing on form and basics first.

    I recommend Nia Shanks' workout programs (Beautiful Badass, for example). Lots of programs within it to try, great instructional videos, and the information about lifting and nutrition is fabulous.

    Second to that would be New Rules of Lifting for Women or Starting Strength.



    This post makes no sense. Strong Lifts and Starting Strength are virtually the same program. You squat every time out on both, you add 30 lbs every two weeks to deadlift on both, and you alternate bench press and overhead press each workout. Thus, your strength gains would be nearly identical, if you start off in the same spot.

    Strong Lifts has you start out with the empty barbell, so that you do learn and practice proper form so that when you start pushing yourself, you know what you're doing.

    StrongLifts is a fine beginner program, if you follow it properly.

    I meant SS, with the information from the book, is far more helpful to a beginner. And, to be honest, with the assumption that OP was the woman in the pic, I wouldn't recommend SL to a woman who is a beginner. That may sound sexist, but I'm not really trying to be. I'm a woman who started out with SL and have my reasons for not recommending it to beginners. Maybe it's different for men. I wouldn't know.
  • Capt_Apollo
    Capt_Apollo Posts: 9,026 Member
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    Makes perfect sense. Thank you very much!

    ETA: I asked in another thread, I will verify here. Is Stronglifts 5X5 a acceptible routine for this?

    i like 5/3/1 (strstd.com) but yeah, 5x5 and starting strength is good.
  • SlvrBluGoddess
    SlvrBluGoddess Posts: 239 Member
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    bump
  • Capt_Apollo
    Capt_Apollo Posts: 9,026 Member
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    I do my 5x5 when on mass-gaining phase, not during my diet phase. During diet I tend to do higher repetitions.

    5x5 is great for someone with a little training behind them who wants to improve their strength and increase mass. You may be better off first doing some 3x10 style training of lower weight...


    This also makes no sense. Higher reps is for hypertrophy - building bigger muscles. You need to be on a Caloric surplus - mass-gaining phase - for that. 5x5 is for strength - neuromuscular adaptation with considerably less muscle growth. And strength gains can definitely be made during Caloric deficits.

    you don't have to be. i was doing a combination of low reps high weight and high reps low weight, and i wasn't eating a surplus. i was eating just shy of maintenance. i built size, strength, and lost weight.
  • lesspaul
    lesspaul Posts: 190 Member
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    There is a well known phenomenon that those of us new to strenuous exercise can lose fat and build muscle at the same time. The gym term for this is "Newbie gains" and it has been proven through research, although I can't find the reference at the moment.
  • phatguerilla
    phatguerilla Posts: 188 Member
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    Body fat is a calorie surplus, even if its not the simplest means of tranforming calories into muscle gains its still possible.
  • Capt_Apollo
    Capt_Apollo Posts: 9,026 Member
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    also, roll tide.
  • bpotts44
    bpotts44 Posts: 1,066 Member
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    Somebody help me out. You cant build muscle without eating at a surplus and you cant lose weight without eating at a deficit. I understand both of these. So what is the physiology of lifting while losing weight. If I am not building muscle, whats the point? I know there is one, I just don't understand.

    Retention on lean muscle mass is the primary reason as well as overall health, calorie burn, etc. However, you can gain muscle in caloric deficit as long as your protein is good especially if you are obese and new to lifting.
  • TR0berts
    TR0berts Posts: 7,739 Member
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    I do my 5x5 when on mass-gaining phase, not during my diet phase. During diet I tend to do higher repetitions.

    5x5 is great for someone with a little training behind them who wants to improve their strength and increase mass. You may be better off first doing some 3x10 style training of lower weight...


    This also makes no sense. Higher reps is for hypertrophy - building bigger muscles. You need to be on a Caloric surplus - mass-gaining phase - for that. 5x5 is for strength - neuromuscular adaptation with considerably less muscle growth. And strength gains can definitely be made during Caloric deficits.

    you don't have to be. i was doing a combination of low reps high weight and high reps low weight, and i wasn't eating a surplus. i was eating just shy of maintenance. i built size, strength, and lost weight.


    "Need" was perhaps a poor choice of wording on my part. But, in regards to what that poster was saying, he's really doing it in a quite inefficient way. He'd be better off reversing what he's doing.
  • SyStEmPhReAk
    SyStEmPhReAk Posts: 330 Member
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    GREAT responses and info!! :smile: :wink:

    Why can't all MFP threads be as accurate with replies to the OP?!? :grumble: :noway:
  • jonnythan
    jonnythan Posts: 10,161 Member
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    Somebody help me out. You cant build muscle without eating at a surplus

    says who?

    Human physiology ;)
  • jonnythan
    jonnythan Posts: 10,161 Member
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    There is a well known phenomenon that those of us new to strenuous exercise can lose fat and build muscle at the same time. The gym term for this is "Newbie gains" and it has been proven through research, although I can't find the reference at the moment.

    I'd be extremely interested in said research. I've never seen any link to any research proving significant muscle gain while on a deficit without steroids, despite reading hundreds of conversations on the topic.
  • Capt_Apollo
    Capt_Apollo Posts: 9,026 Member
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    Somebody help me out. You cant build muscle without eating at a surplus

    says who?

    Human physiology ;)

    i disagree. while you'll never achieve huge size and big numbers on lifts, it is possible to increase size and strength, especially in the beginning, while eating at a deficit.
  • jonnythan
    jonnythan Posts: 10,161 Member
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    Somebody help me out. You cant build muscle without eating at a surplus

    says who?

    Human physiology ;)

    i disagree. while you'll never achieve huge size and big numbers on lifts, it is possible to increase size and strength, especially in the beginning, while eating at a deficit.

    The only place I've ever seen this is in absolute beginners who are very fat, and sometimes not even then.
  • CristinaL1983
    CristinaL1983 Posts: 1,119 Member
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    There is a well known phenomenon that those of us new to strenuous exercise can lose fat and build muscle at the same time. The gym term for this is "Newbie gains" and it has been proven through research, although I can't find the reference at the moment.

    I'd be extremely interested in said research. I've never seen any link to any research proving significant muscle gain while on a deficit without steroids, despite reading hundreds of conversations on the topic.
    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/47/1/19.short
    It was concluded that weight training results in comparable gains in muscle area and strength for DPE and EO. Adding weight training exercise to a caloric restriction program results in maintenance of LBW compared with DO.
    ...
    The increase of 0.43 kg in LBW for the DPE group is comparable to the largest increases reported in other dietplus-exercise studies. Zuti and Golding (5) and Lewis et al (27) report LBW increases of 0.5 and 1. 1 kg over 16and 17 wk, respectively.

    In this article, they put 1 group on weight lifting plus diet, 1 group exercise only, 1 group diet only. In 16 weeks they developed 1/2 a kilo in lean body mass (muscle) (about 1 pound). They also cite a study where people gained up to 1.1 kg muscle in 17 weeks.


    It's not as large a gain as someone who is bulking would be looking for and the studies make no mention of whether the individuals had previous training experience and they were all obese but it is a gain in a deficit.

    Edit: Oh yeah, and EO (exercise only) and DPE (diet plus exercise) had comparable gains. So whether eating at maintenance or deficit made no difference in the studies.
  • jonnythan
    jonnythan Posts: 10,161 Member
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    There is a well known phenomenon that those of us new to strenuous exercise can lose fat and build muscle at the same time. The gym term for this is "Newbie gains" and it has been proven through research, although I can't find the reference at the moment.

    I'd be extremely interested in said research. I've never seen any link to any research proving significant muscle gain while on a deficit without steroids, despite reading hundreds of conversations on the topic.
    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/47/1/19.short
    It was concluded that weight training results in comparable gains in muscle area and strength for DPE and EO. Adding weight training exercise to a caloric restriction program results in maintenance of LBW compared with DO.
    ...
    The increase of 0.43 kg in LBW for the DPE group is comparable to the largest increases reported in other dietplus-exercise studies. Zuti and Golding (5) and Lewis et al (27) report LBW increases of 0.5 and 1. 1 kg over 16and 17 wk, respectively.

    In this article, they put 1 group on weight lifting plus diet, 1 group exercise only, 1 group diet only. In 16 weeks they developed 1/2 a kilo in lean body mass (muscle) (about 1 pound). They also cite a study where people gained up to 1.1 kg muscle in 17 weeks.


    It's not as large a gain as someone who is bulking would be looking for and the studies make no mention of whether the individuals had previous training experience and they were all obese but it is a gain in a deficit.

    Edit: Oh yeah, and EO (exercise only) and DPE (diet plus exercise) had comparable gains. So whether eating at maintenance or deficit made no difference in the studies.

    Heh, thanks for the info. 2 pounds in 17 weeks? Woo! ;)
  • prattiger65
    prattiger65 Posts: 1,657 Member
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    Thanks very much for all the replies. I think the consensus is small "newbie" gains while at a deficit. I can live with that. Not losing lean muscle is the big thing for me. Anyone who wants to add to this, please feel free, I just don't want this to devolve into on of "those" threads. Folks who don't agree, lets just agree to disagree just this one time. I went to the gym and joined on my lunch break, nice folks. $25 per month, no contract and what i believe to be good equipment. I am excited to get started Monday!!
  • albertabeefy
    albertabeefy Posts: 1,169 Member
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    This post makes no sense. Strong Lifts and Starting Strength are virtually the same program. You squat every time out on both, you add 30 lbs every two weeks to deadlift on both, and you alternate bench press and overhead press each workout. Thus, your strength gains would be nearly identical, if you start off in the same spot.

    Strong Lifts has you start out with the empty barbell, so that you do learn and practice proper form so that when you start pushing yourself, you know what you're doing.

    StrongLifts is a fine beginner program, if you follow it properly.
    Keep in mind there are several different programs that call themselves "stronglifts" ... Some are geared toward already advanced lifters. Some for beginners. The one I engage in has squats 3x per week... nobody would consider squatting 3x a week a beginner program.
  • albertabeefy
    albertabeefy Posts: 1,169 Member
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    Somebody help me out. You cant build muscle without eating at a surplus

    says who?

    Human physiology ;)

    i disagree. while you'll never achieve huge size and big numbers on lifts, it is possible to increase size and strength, especially in the beginning, while eating at a deficit.

    The only place I've ever seen this is in absolute beginners who are very fat, and sometimes not even then.
    Or my 17 year old kid who is simply a raging hormone. He lost 20lbs and built mass simultaneously, NOT just strength.
  • jonnythan
    jonnythan Posts: 10,161 Member
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    Thanks very much for all the replies. I think the consensus is small "newbie" gains while at a deficit. I can live with that. Not losing lean muscle is the big thing for me. Anyone who wants to add to this, please feel free, I just don't want this to devolve into on of "those" threads. Folks who don't agree, lets just agree to disagree just this one time. I went to the gym and joined on my lunch break, nice folks. $25 per month, no contract and what i believe to be good equipment. I am excited to get started Monday!!

    If you're going to be doing lifting with a barbell, you need to do a lot of reading, studying, and practice to get the movements down. They are complicated indeed. I strongly recommend that you pick up Starting Strength and treat it like the Bible. Do a hundred squats with minimal weight on the bar and ramp up the weight slowly. Take video, have it analyzed by people who know what they're talking about like Taso and Sidesteel. Join the Eat, Train, Progress group and listen to what those people have to say because they know what they're talking about.

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