gaining muscle mass vs burning fat

This is anecdotal, but I have seen manual laborers in a certain third world country packing a lot of muscle because they lift 50 kg (110 lbs) of rice sacks day in and day out. I can tell you that they can't exactly afford to eat at calorie surplus, yet they are obviously building muscle. My conclusion is that it's possible to gain muscle at a deficit, but it takes much longer time than doing it at a surplus. It takes years for these laborers to get as muscular as they are.

Professional bodybuilders use cut and bulk cycle because they schedule it around competition time. They cut right before they go on stage to increase definition, then they bulk afterward and not worry about a little additional fat that comes with it. They most certainly don't have time for the slow route.

Personally I like the cut and bulk cycle because it's encouraging to see visible results in a short period of time, whether the result sought is less fat or more muscle. It's easier to convince yourself that you're on the right path when you can see some hint of result in as short as 4 weeks.

Disagree. Unless the resistance is progressing, then moving the same amount of weight every day wouldn't result in muscle gain. If that were true, then walking mailmen should have humongous legs. I've seen a few with great calves (they walk in San Francisco) but most walking mailmen I've seen have very average quads and hamstrings.
Now if you're speaking of "muscularity" then that's a depiction of low body fat. Lower the body fat on anyone and they will look more muscular.

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I should have phrased it better. These people started the profession just as big or small as everyone else in the population. Their job is probably the lowest paying one in society, so they can not afford to eat much. Still, over time they are amassing enough muscle to be bigger than the average guy, even though their muscle growth stops at whatever level is necessary to lug 50kg bags around.

Yes you should have phrased it better, as in included the actual information. I can only read what you write.


If there is a good amount of fat to burn, then as stated already by myself and others on this thread, it is possible to build some muscle, at first, and burn fat at the same time. So in the case of a fat laborer, he may gain some muscle. This is the same newbie gains we all get when we start.


The fact still remains, you can't build muscle unless the carbon is there, stored as fat or ingested as food (the other elements are easier to come by).

Also is still true, that you aren't going to be building much muscle beyond your newbie gains unless you eat a calorie surplus, and that this is more pronounced as your body fat gets lower.


A pretty much the answer is still no, lift to preserve muscle while you cut, not to make gains. alternate between cutting and bulking, or 9 times out of ten you will just spin your wheels. As someone who hit this wall not too long ago (5'9" 165 lbs 15% BF), I am not speaking only theoretically. Just a few months ago I was still growing new muscles, quite visibly, but about a month ago it stopped. I did not suddenly drop my intensity. Now if I want to grow, I need to eat above maintenance, and cutting is going to cost me some muscle as well as fat. Considering where I started, it's not upsetting, but it's definitely a reminder that I'm not a special snowflake.

As for using ethnic slurs, I don't care what you do in other languages. You wrote it in English and it's derogatory and most definitely caught my eye. I figured you might not be aware of that, but now you know better. You're welcome.

You paint me as if I'm an ignorant racist, while I'm actually referring to my own people, in a term that we don't find offensive. But that's fine, you have demonstrated that you care for nothing other than your narrow point of view.

I apologise in advance for going off topic, but I am confused by this ethnic slur thing. I read the original post, which wasn't edited and yet didn't find an ethnic slur. As to not offend anyone in the future, could you give me a hint as to what the slur was?

As for using ethnic slurs, I don't care what you do in other languages. You wrote it in English and it's derogatory and most definitely caught my eye. I figured you might not be aware of that, but now you know better. You're welcome.

You paint me as if I'm an ignorant racist, while I'm actually referring to my own people, in a term that we don't find offensive. But that's fine, you have demonstrated that you care for nothing other than your narrow point of view.

I apologise in asvance for going off topic, but I am confused by this ethnic slur thing. I read the original post, which wasn't edited and yet didn't find an ethnic slur. As to not offend anyone in the future, could you give me a hint as to what the slur was?

"coolie".. I was hoping we could drop it since whining annoys me (especially whining about being called racist for using racist terminology in ignorance, in absence of any actual charge of deliberate racism), but since you brought it up, it strike me as rather as less malicious than ignorant and in that sense innocent. It didnt seem he was aware of the offensiveness of the word to me. So I did him the favor of pointing out that it isn't ok.

Sites like Wikipedia will give you a good history of the word "coolie", along with an explanation of why it's not ok to say it casually.

A pretty much the answer is still no, lift to preserve muscle while you cut, not to make gains. alternate between cutting and bulking, or 9 times out of ten you will just spin your wheels. As someone who hit this wall not too long ago (5'9" 165 lbs 15% BF), I am not speaking only theoretically. Just a few months ago I was still growing new muscles, quite visibly, but about a month ago it stopped. I did not suddenly drop my intensity. Now if I want to grow, I need to eat above maintenance, and cutting is going to cost me some muscle as well as fat. Considering where I started, it's not upsetting, but it's definitely a reminder that I'm not a special snowflake.

For bulking and cutting, how long would each require. I've been wondering if I've been doing it unintentionally for the past few months. I wasn't trying to lose any more weight and was just concentrating on fitness. Not gaining muscle specifically, just increasing strength and overall fitness. I was following the Turbo Fire schedule plus other strength building exercises.

I wasn't tracking the whole time and my calories were not consistent. Would this cause muscle gain and fat loss if done inconsistently over a 5 month period?

I dont think there is really any minimum time frame between cycling surplus and deficit. BUT I do think there is a certain amount of time required for the body to transition from a state where it wants to burn fat to a state where it is willing to start adding mass. This could vary person to person depending on length and amount of deficit and surplus. I just dont think it is an on off switch.

What you are talking about is "body recomposition". Basically eating at maintenance and building muscle while in slight surplus and burning fat when under. It was posted already but I will quote it again,

"A lot of the approaches advocated for ‘gaining muscle while losing fat’ aren’t very effective. In fact, I’d tend to argue that most people’s attempts to achieve the above results in them simply spinning their wheels, making no progress towards either goal. Because invariably they set up a situation where neither training nor diet is optimized for either fat loss or muscle gain. Calories are too high for fat loss and too low to support muscle gains and outside of that one overfat beginner situation, the physiology simply isn’t going to readily allow what they want to happen to happen."


http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

start lifting

Yup. And see how your body responds.

Read some of this too.

http://wserver.flc.losrios.edu/~willson/fitns304/handouts/cardio.html

It is very possible. The main thing you need to do is eat healthy. How much you want to gain overall is where you'll make either eat your maintenance caloric requirement or go over it. As long as you are doing the proper things (cardio, clean foods, weight lifting, lots of protein) you will gain lean mass while burning fat.

I am throwing myself into the frying pan for this. No.. You can't gain muscle and lose fat. Its pure science..

What kind of science do you study?

Maybe trying too hard is the killer. I wasn't trying at all and I seemed to have done it.

: ) Its probably just a matter of efficiency. If you are at goal weight/BF% and are not worried about gaining muscle any muscle gain is a bonus and any reduction in BF% as well. Alan Aragon talks about this situation for training people like models and actors that need to maintain a certain look year round. Over a long period of time they can see positive changes.

The fact still remains that muscle is built in the surplus and fat is reduced in the deficit.

I reduced BF% to something I am now happy with (which is actually something of a problem since I now need to lose weight but not reduce BF% much more), but I am not at goal weight by any standard measurement or chart. And when I look in the mirror, while I like the tone and shape of my body, I need to be smaller.