Heavy Lifting Always the Best?

Options
2

Replies

  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    Options
    I guess I don't see any point to spending a lot of time doing 20 reps to finally overload my muscle fibers, when I can simply do it in 3-6 reps.

    But if I just wanted to burn the most calories per hour, I'd pick up a jump rope or hop on my bike.

    Pretty sure his point was that context must be considered when making programming recommendations. It certainly seems reasonable.
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    Options
    There is more to "afterburn" than EPOC. Why would you expect exercise that uses mostly anaerobic energy systems to start burning oxygen after the workout? That doesn't make sense.

    It is virtually impossible to quantify in any meaningful way, but the calorie cost of strength training recovery is very real and quite significant. (Repairing damaged tissue certainly isn't calorie free, which is why if your cals are too low and you are fairly lean your recovery absolutely tanks, though recovery is a high priority process for the body (muscle building is not), the body will spend the cals on it in a deficit, to a point).

    It is hard to quantify because it really depends on how hard you are working/type of routine and how strong you are (in absolute terms and relative terms). But a 10-15% rise in resting metabolic rate is not out of the norm.

    People start lifting heavy, eating more, and start having magical transformations. There isn't some sort of mindless herd mentaility to suggest this to beginners; just have a gander at the success stories forum; you will be hard pressed to find some wow transformations that DIDN'T include meaningful strength training (not cardio with weights).

    Though its definitely fine to start with a high rep easy program to ease into it; after a few weeks of it though it is time to move on.

    It's a good thing that the someone wrote this:
    And, make no mistake, there are many benefits to lifting heavier weights.

    and this:
    I am NOT saying this is the "best" approach for "everyone" and I am not dismissing anyone's successful personal anecdote.

    and THIS:
    Again, I am not trying to say this is the "best" way to lift. But heavy lifting is not for everyone, and may not be the best choice for anyone just starting out. Given today's fitness climate, it could be easy for someone starting out to get the impression that doing anything other than heavy lifting is pointless. That is not true.

    before someone tried to hijack the thread and turn it into another pointless "my lifting is the BEST" debat
    oops, too late.

    PS: if you can't quantify the calorie cost in any meaningful way, how do you know it is "significant?" The Force?
  • myofibril
    myofibril Posts: 4,500 Member
    Options
    7K8vCxZ.jpg
  • azmiz
    azmiz Posts: 128 Member
    Options
    Thanks Azdak.
  • gaterbear
    gaterbear Posts: 68
    Options
    One of the best advice comments I have read. I appreciate the sane and logical approach and information. Thanks
  • Hezzietiger1
    Hezzietiger1 Posts: 1,256 Member
    Options
    Good post.. I when very overweight tried to jump into heavy weights and did not use proper form.. resulting in a back injury. Now, as a trainer, I start clients with form over weight. No injuries on my watch.
  • waldo56
    waldo56 Posts: 1,861 Member
    Options
    PS: if you can't quantify the calorie cost in any meaningful way, how do you know it is "significant?" The Force?

    The only way to calculate it is to reverse engineer what your metabolism was from weigh-in data and calorie/exercise data. To the best of my knoweldge no lab based study has ever done this. There really isn't any other way to measure it. But lab based studies have found that burn vicitms have a significantly increased resting metabolism (large portion of the body is actively recovering, just like from strength training).

    But plenty of data nerd OCD types have done this in n=1 experiements (including myself); the metabolic rise is very real. I calculate it to be about 15% for myself.

    Why do you think so many people with firsthand experience believe building muscle raises metabolism significantly? Some of the numbers thrown out there are massive numbers. Those numbers came from somewhere, not just out of thin air. People started lifted, saw a dramatic rise in metabolism, measured a little muscle gain, and had some numbers. In reality the metabolic raise from increased muscle mass borders on insignificant, but the rise from constantly recovering from hard strength training IS significant (but it really doesn't go up anymore as muscle mass increases)

    Anybody that is OCD enough to track their metabolism knows they maintain at a different level depending on whether they strength train or not in the recent past. Try to apply those numbers to the time spent strength training and you get nonsensical values like 1500-2000 cal/hr burned, decreasing as frequency increases (thus there clearly is an all the time burn, indepenent of the energy burn while actually performing it, in other words a rise in resting metabolism).
  • Fruit4dessert
    Fruit4dessert Posts: 150 Member
    Options
    Thanks for posting this!

    As someone who tends to get injured lifting heavy, I have learned over the years that my version of "lifting heavy" involves 12-15 reps to failure. Works for me!
  • MisterDerpington
    MisterDerpington Posts: 604 Member
    Options
    This is a very good post OP and I love that you actually cite sources for your information. However some things I'd disagree with.

    1. They don't need to increase muscle mass. The idea that "lifting heavy increases muscles that burn more fat at rest" is one of the most common mantras repeated on MFP.

    However, someone who is significantly overweight (i.e. BMI >34, 35%+ BF for men, 40%+ for women), often has a lot of muscle mass already. They don't need more. They might gain more as a result of training, or they might lose some muscle mass as their bodies "resize" themselves over time. In either case, pushing overweight beginners to "increase muscle mass" is usually not a productive goal--at first.

    A lot of people actually say it is to help maintain their current muscle mass due to limited gains on a calorie deficit. Being someone who lost a lot of weight using very little resistance training and came back to being obese, I can attest that you can lose a considerable amount of muscle if it is not maintained with resistance training. I know you weren't arguing this, but I wanted to reiterate it.
    5. Psychological reinforcement and increased confidence. Which workout do you think is going to encourage someone to come back: a heavy workout that leaves someone feeling discouraged and sore, or one that leaves them feeling energized and with a feeling of success?

    I believe that it is important for beginners to finish each workout with a feeling of success and accomplishment; to see incremental gains each day.

    The only time I've felt discouraged after lifting "heavy" is when my form was poor or I had to go down in weight on the bar due to skipping training days. When I am consistently training, I don't "discouraged." And I've found high rep sets to not produce soreness, so I'm not sure how that came into this.


    So what are the specifics:

    1. First of all, whether you lift light or heavy or in-between, it is important to work to momentary "exhaustion", regardless of # of reps or time of set.

    2. By "lighter", I am referring to an intensity of 50%-55% of 1 RM. This means about 15-20 reps per set. Work up to 3 sets per exercise.

    3. The movements should be controlled--not "super slow", but not super fast, either. The set should last at least 45 seconds.

    4. As usual, work large muscle groups. Leg press, squat, chest, lats, shoulders. Don't bother with small-muscle isolation exercises right now.

    I think even those in the "heavy lifting camp" would agree with most of these. In fact 15-20 rep sets of some accessory exercises are utilized by many intermediate lifters looking to get stronger. And once again in #4 I think everyone agrees that compound movements are superior.
  • holothuroidea
    holothuroidea Posts: 772 Member
    Options
    I don't understand why "lifting heavy" has been misinterpreted as focusing on weight over form, not easing into a training program, or never doing high rep sets.

    I've been weightlifting for about 3 months now. Yes, the goal is to lift progressively heavier things, but my first couple weeks I lifted nothing but PVC pipes and 35lb bars. I've done sets that are 15x3, 10x5, 5x5, 3x7, 3x5. I spend half my work out time doing stretches and mobility exercises. "Lift heavy," does not mean start your training program lifting as much as you can for as few reps as possible and do nothing else.
  • contingencyplan
    contingencyplan Posts: 3,639 Member
    Options
    In my personal opinion, circuit training > heavy lifting for overall fitness gains and body fat loss. But understand there's a very big difference between actual circuit training and what's marketed to the public as circuit training.
  • crista_b
    crista_b Posts: 1,192 Member
    Options
    I don't understand why "lifting heavy" has been misinterpreted as focusing on weight over form, not easing into a training program, or never doing high rep sets.

    I've been weightlifting for about 3 months now. Yes, the goal is to lift progressively heavier things, but my first couple weeks I lifted nothing but PVC pipes and 35lb bars. I've done sets that are 15x3, 10x5, 5x5, 3x7, 3x5. I spend half my work out time doing stretches and mobility exercises. "Lift heavy," does not mean start your training program lifting as much as you can for as few reps as possible and do nothing else.
    This is a good point.
  • kitka82
    kitka82 Posts: 350 Member
    Options
    7K8vCxZ.jpg

    omg LOL. #dead
  • kitka82
    kitka82 Posts: 350 Member
    Options
    I don't understand why "lifting heavy" has been misinterpreted as focusing on weight over form, not easing into a training program, or never doing high rep sets.

    I've been weightlifting for about 3 months now. Yes, the goal is to lift progressively heavier things, but my first couple weeks I lifted nothing but PVC pipes and 35lb bars. I've done sets that are 15x3, 10x5, 5x5, 3x7, 3x5. I spend half my work out time doing stretches and mobility exercises. "Lift heavy," does not mean start your training program lifting as much as you can for as few reps as possible and do nothing else.

    THIS. It's not all about rep ranges... I don't even know why it's called "lifting heavy." Why even pick up a dumbbell if you're not going to challenge yourself?
  • tracieangeletti
    tracieangeletti Posts: 432 Member
    Options
    I have MS and when I started my journey I was seriously having a hard time lifting a gallon of milk. Needless to say I started lifting light. VERY light. What this did for me was it helped me to learn the basic exercises with good form, it helped me gain strength in a way that allowed me to keep going without too much pain, and most importantly it taught me that I was capable of lifting weights which is something I thought was impossible for me. I'm now doing compound lifts and lifting much heavier weights. Today I did my first barbell deadlift!! I'm not sure how successful I would have been if I started too heavy too fast. Maybe I'd be further along or possibly it would've been too much for me and I would've quit. My thoughts are you need to do what you need to do to keep going, and if that means starting off slower and working up, well, that's what needs to happen. Baby steps are better than no steps. :-)
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
    Options
    Thanks! This is EXACTLY what I've been looking for. I used the links and made copies of the sample workout used by Lyle. I've felt like I was supposed to lift like everyone else, but I'm heavy and I don't feel physically capable of following a lot of the recommendations. This was kind of a relief to me - I'm not wasting my time! I want to start lifting, but I'm too embarrassed about what I'm not capable of. I will use this information as "validation" that is ok to start lighter and work my way up.

    I just skimmed for now - will come back to read properly, but ^^this is the most beneficial take away from this thread for people imo.

    While I am a fan of lower rep strength training for myself as it suits my goals and my preferences, the push that you have to lift heavy or it is a waste of time is very off putting to people and quite frankly a pile of crap. Any resistance training is better then nothing and I find it a shame that people get put off doing it as they do not have the time, inclination or resources to do it. Plus, it may not even be optimal in the first place for that persons goals and situation.

    Context needs to be applied before insisting someone do back squats or deadlifts in a low rep range.
  • craigmandu
    craigmandu Posts: 976 Member
    Options
    To be fair to the community at large, the people here simply give the best recommendations that they can based on their experiences and what they consider would apply to the "majority" of people that are trying to transform their physiques.

    If you think for one second that everyone on here is a professional, is going to diligently research a specific person's situation (especially since people post broken or very little information in their questions), or custom tailor a routine for a starter that will adhere to all their hopes and dreams, be super easy and work for 110% of people, you'd be asking for a bit much.

    People will recommend what they perceive is working. Most people right now perceive that going with a lifting routine that focus on relatively low reps in a progressively increasing weight load is what works for the majority of people.

    Of course, do what works for you. No one has said not to. Any exercise is better than none at all. The best exercise routine is one you will do, not one you will simply question at every turn.
  • deksgrl
    deksgrl Posts: 7,237 Member
    Options
    7K8vCxZ.jpg

    73695588.33qwiKAN.Wolf1178APCS.jpg
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,584 Member
    Options
    And I agree.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,874 Member
    Options
    I don't understand why "lifting heavy" has been misinterpreted as focusing on weight over form, not easing into a training program, or never doing high rep sets.

    I've been weightlifting for about 3 months now. Yes, the goal is to lift progressively heavier things, but my first couple weeks I lifted nothing but PVC pipes and 35lb bars. I've done sets that are 15x3, 10x5, 5x5, 3x7, 3x5. I spend half my work out time doing stretches and mobility exercises. "Lift heavy," does not mean start your training program lifting as much as you can for as few reps as possible and do nothing else.

    I agree with the OP overall, but this is a very good point. When you do something like SS or SL, you don't start off dead-lifting "heavy" or squatting "heavy" really. You start small and add weight each time so that in a few months, you're actually getting "heavy". I mean really, it took a couple of months of SS before I really felt like I was getting an actual workout in.

    But yes, different goals mean different ways of working out. I no longer do SS because I pretty much lost my legs squatting heavy 3x weekly...really couldn't run or do anything else without majorly hindering my recovery. I do 5/3/1 now and get in my big lifts in a split..I like it because I'm training for a Goruck and Tough Mudder and I can still get those big, heavy compound lifts in but I can do military style PT as my "assistance" work basically...a lot of conditioning and running as well. I wouldn't be able to do any of that doing SS or SL. So yes, it does depend on your goals.

Categories