Cardio vs. Heavy Lifting-Timing during weight loss

britzzie
britzzie Posts: 338 Member
in Fitness and Exercise
I know there are tons of threads out there, but I'd like some folks to weigh in on my specific situation. Thanks in advance!!

I've lost about 75lbs and have around 35 to go. I weigh around 202 lbs at 5' 9" and want to be at 168ish. I already have a pretty muscular build.

Right now I'm eating 1400-1500 calories/day and doing Insanity. I've heard a lot about heavy lifting and eating at TDEE -15-20% for a long time and am wondering if I should change it up at this point. I know building muscle takes eating at a surplus, and I really don't think I want to do that. But I want to get solid muscle. Can you do that without building/eating at a surplus? I know I will get a lot of people telling me to eat more. I'm open to that.

I guess my real question is: Is it the right time for me to move to heavy lifting even though I still want to eat at a deficit to lose fat? Or should I get closer to my goal first?

Sorry if my post is confusing and my questions are all over the place!
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Replies

  • chub89
    chub89 Posts: 4
    By "get solid muscle" are u referring to retaining your current muscle while on a deficit. If so just lift heavy.
  • britzzie
    britzzie Posts: 338 Member
    I think so. I don't think I need more of it. I think I would like to be stronger and more solid. Is that the same as building?
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    I think you need to define "more solid".

    I think that if you keep losing fat while maintaining/retaining the muscle you currently have, you will achieve this "more solid" look that you're referring to, but that's as close as I can get to understanding your definition of solid.

    You lift weights to attempt to retain muscle while dieting so that the weight you do lose comes mostly from fat stores.

    You can build some muscle in a deficit under specific conditions and being a new lifter chances of this are reasonably good. You just won't build as much as someone in a surplus, and you won't experience these gains for extended time while in a deficit.

    This topic (muscle building in a deficit) usually results in a pissing match with people taking an all or nothing stance and excluding the middle and ignoring context entirely and it becomes quite comical.

    Food for thought:

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/excluding-the-middle.html
  • weightsoverdates
    weightsoverdates Posts: 9
    If by building you mean something along the lines of lean bulking (putting on muscle and not too much fat) for that you need to eat at roughly 15 - 20% extra calories (from maintenance) if you want to do just normal bulking you'd probably be looking at eating close to an extra 1000 - 1500 calories but weight gain (fat) will be high than lean bulking, but as the idea suggests you won't put on as much muscle.

    Eating at a deficit will always cause some muscle loss however research has shown that if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle while in a deficit.

    tl;dr

    Eating at a deficit will always cause some sort of muscle loss, if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle
    Eating in excess will always cause some sort of fat gain, if you lift heavy you will put on some muscle and some fat

    If you want to get stronger you will need to eat in surplus to see proper strength gains, and you will need to change your program to something along the lines of a 5 x 5 or 3 x 5 as that is generally said to encourage strength gains where as 8 - 12 reps generally encourages hypertrophy (muscle size growth, so basically you can have big muscles without maximum lifting ability)
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    Eating at a deficit will always cause some sort of muscle loss, if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle

    This isn't necessarily true as it depends on context and duration (among other factors).
  • britzzie
    britzzie Posts: 338 Member
    Thanks for the heads up. Yea, the forums get a little craaaazy at times.

    Sorry if I'm not being clear.

    So to me, more solid = more defined & harder.

    Sounds like it's important for me to start introducing lifting, to make sure I am losing fat rather than muscle regardless of what the result will be.

    Thanks for the help!
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    Thanks for the heads up. Yea, the forums get a little craaaazy at times.

    Sorry if I'm not being clear.

    So to me, more solid = more defined & harder.

    Sounds like it's important for me to start introducing lifting, to make sure I am losing fat rather than muscle regardless of what the result will be.

    Thanks for the help!

    Based on your definition your goal is fat loss.
    I would recommend some form of resistance training ~3 times/week or so to help maintain muscle mass as you lose weight.
  • KatLifter
    KatLifter Posts: 1,314 Member
    I think so. I don't think I need more of it. I think I would like to be stronger and more solid. Is that the same as building?

    If you're eating at a deficit, you won't gain any more muscle. What will happen is you'll keep (more of) the muscle you have. When you lose bodyfat you'll look more solid. I think this is what you mean?

    So yup, eat at a deficit and lift all the heavy things! I love Nia Shanks and her approach, www.niashanks.com.
  • britzzie
    britzzie Posts: 338 Member
    If by building you mean something along the lines of lean bulking (putting on muscle and not too much fat) for that you need to eat at roughly 15 - 20% extra calories (from maintenance) if you want to do just normal bulking you'd probably be looking at eating close to an extra 1000 - 1500 calories but weight gain (fat) will be high than lean bulking, but as the idea suggests you won't put on as much muscle.

    Eating at a deficit will always cause some muscle loss however research has shown that if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle while in a deficit.

    tl;dr

    Eating at a deficit will always cause some sort of muscle loss, if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle
    Eating in excess will always cause some sort of fat gain, if you lift heavy you will put on some muscle and some fat

    If you want to get stronger you will need to eat in surplus to see proper strength gains, and you will need to change your program to something along the lines of a 5 x 5 or 3 x 5 as that is generally said to encourage strength gains where as 8 - 12 reps generally encourages hypertrophy (muscle size growth, so basically you can have big muscles without maximum lifting ability)

    I don't want to gain weight. (I know this can be part of it, but in the end I need to be lighter.) Also, I can't get stronger while eating at a deficit? So getting stronger (being able to lift more) = building? You can't increase strength without building, therefore, you can't get stronger without eating at a surplus? Is that right?

    Not being snarky. But I'm a logical person trying to understand.
  • britzzie
    britzzie Posts: 338 Member
    Thanks for the heads up. Yea, the forums get a little craaaazy at times.

    Sorry if I'm not being clear.

    So to me, more solid = more defined & harder.

    Sounds like it's important for me to start introducing lifting, to make sure I am losing fat rather than muscle regardless of what the result will be.

    Thanks for the help!

    Based on your definition your goal is fat loss.
    I would recommend some form of resistance training ~3 times/week or so to help maintain muscle mass as you lose weight.

    Very helpful. You rock! Enjoy the weekend! :drinker:
  • kavanaghev
    kavanaghev Posts: 75 Member
    I feel like genetics must play a big role in this as well because I don't think I build muscle very quickly at all, but I have had a relatively easy time retaining it while losing fat, and I have always been pretty strong underneath my fluff. Some people may struggle or have to tweak their diets/exercise a lot more to have the same result. I will say though that I never had a "just cardio and caloric deficit" time period in my weight loss calendar... I have always incorporated strength training (although the type of training has evolved), and I am sure that has contributed to any muscle retention.
  • weightsoverdates
    weightsoverdates Posts: 9
    Eating at a deficit will always cause some sort of muscle loss, if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle

    This isn't necessarily true as it depends on context and duration (among other factors).

    What do you mean by context?

    If you aren't eating at maintenance or at a surplus (after exercising) your body will be in a catabolic state unless you are also taking an anti-catabolic but even that has limiting factors. If you keep lifting you will retain you strength gains but you are most certainly going to lose some muscle, even if it's a small percentage.

    "Physiologically, the key to gaining muscle mass is to consume more energy than you expend while focusing on high-intensity resistance training (Lambert, Frank & Evans et al. 2004). Nutritionists and other health professionals have long understood the importance of tipping the energy scales in favor of excess kcal consumption for muscle gain. Although this view may be criticized for being overly simplistic (and the method may sometimes be ineffective), energy intake is usually considered a critical strategy for muscle gain."

    - http://www.ideafit.com/fitness-library/tailoring-nutrient-intake-exercise-goals-0

    If OP wants to tone up her best option is to balance out the cardio and weights and increase her calories slightly (depending how long you have been on 1400 - 1500, that last thing you want to do is ruin your metabolism because of low calorie eating while doing high intensity cardio in excess), however studies have found that doing cardio or weights separately is more effective at raising you after burn than doing cardio then weights (however that's even better than doing weights than cardio)
  • weightsoverdates
    weightsoverdates Posts: 9
    It all has to do with the ratio of fast twitch and slow twitch muscles (plus high can sometimes be a factor) if you notice a lot of stronglift guys are pretty short.
  • sullus
    sullus Posts: 2,839 Member
    There shouldnt be a problem lifting heavy and eating at a deficit. I'm doing this right now.

    So here's my little anecdote on this. This isn't science. This is just my observation of me.

    I work with a trainer 3 days a week, and we change up what I'm doing every 6-8 weeks. When I went from lifting heavy (which I'm defining as 6-8 reps to failure) to doing more cardio based workouts (rope slams, burpees, ladders, some lighter weights (10-15 reps), etc) I found I still continued to lose, but I felt (and got) a little flabbier. I gained about an inch on my waist (non-scientifically measured by where I was comfortably buckling my belt), my stomach jiggled a little more, and that vein I was seeing on my arms went away.

    For the last 3 weeks, we've been back to lifting heavy. The jiggle went away, the belt's back down to notch #4, and I have my vein back, I'm seeing a little more definition, I feel a little bigger in the chest and arms, and I'm still losing.

    Additionally, I run 2.5-3.5 miles 3x a week. This has not changed.

    So anyway .. that's me. I like lifting heavy and eating at a deficit. It seems to work splendidly.
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    Eating at a deficit will always cause some sort of muscle loss, if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle

    This isn't necessarily true as it depends on context and duration (among other factors).

    What do you mean by context?

    If you aren't eating at maintenance or at a surplus (after exercising) your body will be in a catabolic state unless you are also taking an anti-catabolic but even that has limiting factors. If you keep lifting you will retain you strength gains but you are most certainly going to lose some muscle, even if it's a small percentage.

    "Physiologically, the key to gaining muscle mass is to consume more energy than you expend while focusing on high-intensity resistance training (Lambert, Frank & Evans et al. 2004). Nutritionists and other health professionals have long understood the importance of tipping the energy scales in favor of excess kcal consumption for muscle gain. Although this view may be criticized for being overly simplistic (and the method may sometimes be ineffective), energy intake is usually considered a critical strategy for muscle gain."

    - http://www.ideafit.com/fitness-library/tailoring-nutrient-intake-exercise-goals-0

    If OP wants to tone up her best option is to balance out the cardio and weights and increase her calories slightly (depending how long you have been on 1400 - 1500, that last thing you want to do is ruin your metabolism because of low calorie eating while doing high intensity cardio in excess), however studies have found that doing cardio or weights separately is more effective at raising you after burn than doing cardio then weights (however that's even better than doing weights than cardio)

    Please read this:
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html
  • Capt_Apollo
    Capt_Apollo Posts: 9,026 Member
    everything sidesteel said.
  • RGv2
    RGv2 Posts: 5,789 Member
    If by building you mean something along the lines of lean bulking (putting on muscle and not too much fat) for that you need to eat at roughly 15 - 20% extra calories (from maintenance) if you want to do just normal bulking you'd probably be looking at eating close to an extra 1000 - 1500 calories but weight gain (fat) will be high than lean bulking, but as the idea suggests you won't put on as much muscle.

    Eating at a deficit will always cause some muscle loss however research has shown that if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle while in a deficit.

    tl;dr

    Eating at a deficit will always cause some sort of muscle loss, if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle
    Eating in excess will always cause some sort of fat gain, if you lift heavy you will put on some muscle and some fat

    If you want to get stronger you will need to eat in surplus to see proper strength gains, and you will need to change your program to something along the lines of a 5 x 5 or 3 x 5 as that is generally said to encourage strength gains where as 8 - 12 reps generally encourages hypertrophy (muscle size growth, so basically you can have big muscles without maximum lifting ability)

    I don't want to gain weight. (I know this can be part of it, but in the end I need to be lighter.) Also, I can't get stronger while eating at a deficit? So getting stronger (being able to lift more) = building? You can't increase strength without building, therefore, you can't get stronger without eating at a surplus? Is that right?

    Not being snarky. But I'm a logical person trying to understand.

    Yes, you can increase strength while on a deficit. Gaining strength =/= Muscle Gain.
  • nessa2BFit
    nessa2BFit Posts: 155 Member


    I've lost about 75lbs and have around 35 to go. I weigh around 202 lbs at 5' 9" and want to be at 168ish. I already have a pretty muscular build.

    Right now I'm eating 1400-1500 calories/day and doing Insanity. I've heard a lot about heavy lifting and eating at TDEE -15-20% for a long time and am wondering if I should change it up at this point. I know building muscle takes eating at a surplus, and I really don't think I want to do that. But I want to get solid muscle. Can you do that without building/eating at a surplus? I know I will get a lot of people telling me to eat more. I'm open to that. "


    thanks for the thread... this could have been my post except i am at 209! i have been lifting heavy using New rules of lifting for woman. for me i want to lose fat and see the muscle i have underneath. i definatly don't want to lose muscle and if i gain any along the way that is great. I am going to eat at a deficit til i reach my goal then will eat at a surplus and want to gain back with muscle. it is hard for me to get my brain to understand alot of this. since lifting i have maintained my weight.
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
    Eating at a deficit will always cause some sort of muscle loss, if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle

    This isn't necessarily true as it depends on context and duration (among other factors).

    What do you mean by context?

    If you aren't eating at maintenance or at a surplus (after exercising) your body will be in a catabolic state unless you are also taking an anti-catabolic but even that has limiting factors. If you keep lifting you will retain you strength gains but you are most certainly going to lose some muscle, even if it's a small percentage.

    "Physiologically, the key to gaining muscle mass is to consume more energy than you expend while focusing on high-intensity resistance training (Lambert, Frank & Evans et al. 2004). Nutritionists and other health professionals have long understood the importance of tipping the energy scales in favor of excess kcal consumption for muscle gain. Although this view may be criticized for being overly simplistic (and the method may sometimes be ineffective), energy intake is usually considered a critical strategy for muscle gain."

    - http://www.ideafit.com/fitness-library/tailoring-nutrient-intake-exercise-goals-0

    If OP wants to tone up her best option is to balance out the cardio and weights and increase her calories slightly (depending how long you have been on 1400 - 1500, that last thing you want to do is ruin your metabolism because of low calorie eating while doing high intensity cardio in excess), however studies have found that doing cardio or weights separately is more effective at raising you after burn than doing cardio then weights (however that's even better than doing weights than cardio)

    Not necessarily. Context is relevant. How new someone is to training, how large the deficit, their diet, how lean someone is, training intensity, genetics, gender and age all some into play. But you do not necessarily lose muscle.
  • weightsoverdates
    weightsoverdates Posts: 9
    You can get stronger but your muscles won't grow in size as much.

    Reading that article it seems more related to newbie gains and/or utilizing existing body fat as an energy source over caloric intake and affects beginners rather than intermediate lifters. So while she has 15kg to go this is only going to work for a short period of time. She will make and retain strength gains but after some time as the article states it will be harder to encourage the muscle growth.

    From what I've learnt as a PT muscle hypertrophy only occurs during a surplus of calories and trying to create an anabolic environment on a deficit is near impossible even with anti-catabolics.
  • IronPlayground
    IronPlayground Posts: 1,594 Member
    If you want to get stronger you will need to eat in surplus to see proper strength gains, and you will need to change your program to something along the lines of a 5 x 5 or 3 x 5 as that is generally said to encourage strength gains where as 8 - 12 reps generally encourages hypertrophy (muscle size growth, so basically you can have big muscles without maximum lifting ability)

    This isn't accurate. You can have neurological adaptations to increase resistance training. You would be training your central nervous system to accept heavy weight. Which results in gaining strength while eating at a moderate deficit.
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    I should clarify my position on this:

    If your GOAL is to gain muscle you should be in an energy surplus. My rebuttal was that it is not impossible to gain muscle in a deficit and you should consider context.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21558571

    Full text attached in reply #6 by Wonderpug here:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=141780961&page=1

    You'll note that they show muscle gain and fat loss concurrently while in an energy deficit.

    The claim that it cannot happen is just silly, and these weren't even obese beginners.

    There are other studies that show the same thing occurring in overweight and untrained folks, and it's relatively normal for something like this to happen under that specific context.
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    You can get stronger but your muscles won't grow in size as much.

    Reading that article it seems more related to newbie gains and/or utilizing existing body fat as an energy source over caloric intake and affects beginners rather than intermediate lifters. So while she has 15kg to go this is only going to work for a short period of time. She will make and retain strength gains but after some time as the article states it will be harder to encourage the muscle growth.

    From what I've learnt as a PT muscle hypertrophy only occurs during a surplus of calories and trying to create an anabolic environment on a deficit is near impossible even with anti-catabolics.

    This is called context.

    You are correct, it will happen in beginners but your original statement was this:
    Eating at a deficit will always cause some muscle loss

    which is incorrect.



    Also to note, and this is with absolutely no disrespect to the OP:

    1) She is overweight. I do not say that judgmentally, just an observation of her stats.
    2) She is new to heavy lifting.

    In other words, she fits the context.
  • britzzie
    britzzie Posts: 338 Member
    Thanks, all! Here's my plan:

    I will increase cals to TDEE-20%. I will do cardio 3x/week and heavy lifting 3x/week on separate days. Anything else I should be doing.

    And no offense taken. I'm overweight now, but I'm working on it : )
  • jenluvsushi
    jenluvsushi Posts: 933 Member
    Believe it or not, you probably have a ton of muscle already. If you start heavy lifting now, as you lose weight you will look muscular because heavy lifting helps you maintain your muscle mass as you lose. It isn't about growing muscle when you are cutting fat in a caloric deficit....it's about maintaining what you already have. I suggest to EVERYONE.....start lifting now, not when you are close to goal. People who lose a ton of weight are often very disappointed by what they see after weight loss alone. I didn't want to just lose weight but look the same...I wanted to change my shape. Heavy lifting is where it is at!
  • DreamOfSunshine
    DreamOfSunshine Posts: 911 Member
    bump to read later as I'm close to your situation right now. Thanks for the topic!!
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    Thanks, all! Here's my plan:

    I will increase cals to TDEE-20%. I will do cardio 3x/week and heavy lifting 3x/week on separate days. Anything else I should be doing.

    And no offense taken. I'm overweight now, but I'm working on it : )

    You are doing great and you're getting results. Thank you for not taking offense to my comment as I was simply trying to point out that you fit the context I was referring to.
  • timbrom
    timbrom Posts: 303 Member
    If by building you mean something along the lines of lean bulking (putting on muscle and not too much fat) for that you need to eat at roughly 15 - 20% extra calories (from maintenance) if you want to do just normal bulking you'd probably be looking at eating close to an extra 1000 - 1500 calories but weight gain (fat) will be high than lean bulking, but as the idea suggests you won't put on as much muscle.

    Eating at a deficit will always cause some muscle loss however research has shown that if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle while in a deficit.

    tl;dr

    Eating at a deficit will always cause some sort of muscle loss, if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle
    Eating in excess will always cause some sort of fat gain, if you lift heavy you will put on some muscle and some fat

    If you want to get stronger you will need to eat in surplus to see proper strength gains, and you will need to change your program to something along the lines of a 5 x 5 or 3 x 5 as that is generally said to encourage strength gains where as 8 - 12 reps generally encourages hypertrophy (muscle size growth, so basically you can have big muscles without maximum lifting ability)

    I don't want to gain weight. (I know this can be part of it, but in the end I need to be lighter.) Also, I can't get stronger while eating at a deficit? So getting stronger (being able to lift more) = building? You can't increase strength without building, therefore, you can't get stronger without eating at a surplus? Is that right?

    Not being snarky. But I'm a logical person trying to understand.

    I'm going to try to get this thread back on track before it completely devolves into the rather tiresome "You can't gain muscle mass on a deficit." "Nuh-uh! Yes you can" thread.

    Strength is not completely related to muscle size. Part of strength is training your brain and your neural pathways to lift heavier things. When your brain sends a signal to a muscle to contract, your brain only signals enough of your muscle fibers to contract to lift the thing you are trying to lift. This is why when you go to lift a bucket that you think is full, but is actually empty you end up throwing the bucket through the roof, or vice versa you don't even budge the bucket, but once you realize it's actually full you can lift it with ease.

    Strength training will train your neural pathways to utilize more of your existing muscle fibers at a time, which leads to strength gains. So you most certainly can get significantly stronger on a deficit, without growing larger muscles, because you're teaching your brain how to lift heavier things.
  • britzzie
    britzzie Posts: 338 Member
    If by building you mean something along the lines of lean bulking (putting on muscle and not too much fat) for that you need to eat at roughly 15 - 20% extra calories (from maintenance) if you want to do just normal bulking you'd probably be looking at eating close to an extra 1000 - 1500 calories but weight gain (fat) will be high than lean bulking, but as the idea suggests you won't put on as much muscle.

    Eating at a deficit will always cause some muscle loss however research has shown that if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle while in a deficit.

    tl;dr

    Eating at a deficit will always cause some sort of muscle loss, if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle
    Eating in excess will always cause some sort of fat gain, if you lift heavy you will put on some muscle and some fat

    If you want to get stronger you will need to eat in surplus to see proper strength gains, and you will need to change your program to something along the lines of a 5 x 5 or 3 x 5 as that is generally said to encourage strength gains where as 8 - 12 reps generally encourages hypertrophy (muscle size growth, so basically you can have big muscles without maximum lifting ability)

    I don't want to gain weight. (I know this can be part of it, but in the end I need to be lighter.) Also, I can't get stronger while eating at a deficit? So getting stronger (being able to lift more) = building? You can't increase strength without building, therefore, you can't get stronger without eating at a surplus? Is that right?

    Not being snarky. But I'm a logical person trying to understand.

    I'm going to try to get this thread back on track before it completely devolves into the rather tiresome "You can't gain muscle mass on a deficit." "Nuh-uh! Yes you can" thread.

    Strength is not completely related to muscle size. Part of strength is training your brain and your neural pathways to lift heavier things. When your brain sends a signal to a muscle to contract, your brain only signals enough of your muscle fibers to contract to lift the thing you are trying to lift. This is why when you go to lift a bucket that you think is full, but is actually empty you end up throwing the bucket through the roof, or vice versa you don't even budge the bucket, but once you realize it's actually full you can lift it with ease.

    Strength training will train your neural pathways to utilize more of your existing muscle fibers at a time, which leads to strength gains. So you most certainly can get significantly stronger on a deficit, without growing larger muscles, because you're teaching your brain how to lift heavier things.

    Thanks for clearing this up. It didn't make sense... Because I've been eating at a deficit but that I can lift heavier things than I could before. You make sense! :bigsmile:
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
    Thanks, all! Here's my plan:

    I will increase cals to TDEE-20%. I will do cardio 3x/week and heavy lifting 3x/week on separate days. Anything else I should be doing.

    And no offense taken. I'm overweight now, but I'm working on it : )

    Solid plan.

    Irrespective of whether you gain, lose or maintain LBM, you will be doing everything you can to maintain it, gain strength and improve bone density - all of which are good things.

    I would just add, make sure your are as accurate as possible with logging your food. Weigh as much as possible and measure what you cannot. It can make a big difference.

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