Why is everyone so afraid of sugar?

Options
1…457910…12

Replies

  • rduhlir
    rduhlir Posts: 3,550 Member
    Options
    tumblr_ljh0puClWT1qfkt17.gif
  • jackielou867
    jackielou867 Posts: 422 Member
    Options
    The natural sugar we find in fruits are not bad. It is the granulated stuff we add to our diet by the bucket full in cakes, cookies, cereal, baked beans, bread, tinned veg, canned soup, soda, sauces, frozen meals, yogurt, ice cream, cordial, fruit juice, the list in endless
    Almost any processed food has added sugar. Even the low fat stuff. It is these added sugars you need to be afraid of, because it all adds up. If you don't believe me go have a look in your pantry. I just did. I randomly selected 10 item's and only one had less than 1g sugar per serve.

    As someone who wants to improve their health, or maybe lose some weight, there are two main varieties of sugar that you should be aware of. They are:
    •Intrinsic Sugars
    •Extrinsic Sugars

    Intrinsic Sugars are those sugars that occur naturally in fruits and vegetables and are called intrinsic because they reside within the cell structures themselves. The good news is that you do not need to cut back on these sugars if you want to lose weight or get healthy because they’re natural. They also come with a variety of wholesome vitamins and minerals plus dietary fibre which are all essential to the body’s normal functioning. Simply put, these are good sugars to include in your diet.

    Extrinsic sugars are those sugars not contained within the cell structures of the above mentioned natural foods. Instead they themselves fall into two main groups. These are:
    •Milk Extrinsic Sugars: these occur naturally in milk products
    •Non Milk Extrinsic Sugars (NME): these are added to foods

    NME sugars are added to foods for a variety of reasons, but are mainly added to sweeten them, to increase their bulk or to preserve them. From a health and weight loss viewpoint, it is these NME sugars which should be avoided. The reason is they contain no useful nutrients for the body, so are metabolized and stored as fat. The problem for dieters when this happens is the body never gets to use its stored up fat because we never get hungry, so it just keeps piling it on.

    That’s the main reason you gain weight when you eat large amounts of NME sugars. However, if you cut down hard on these sugars and exercise regularly, your body will have no choice but to use up the stored fat and then you will start to lose weight.



    Negative Health Aspects of Consuming Refined Sugar






    What are the negative health aspects of eating refined sugar and why you should avoid sugar for better health?

    Sucrose in its refined form, when consumed is broken down by the body into glucose and other simpler sugars that are used by the body for producing energy. When this is done in small quantities, there is no real problem, but when sucrose is taken in and broken down into large amounts of simpler sugars, the blood gets a rush of these sugars which causes an imbalance in blood sugar levels.

    As a general rule of thumb, the more refined the sugar you eat is, the more likely your body will react negatively way to it. In this sense, blood sugar levels are constantly rising and falling sharply when you ingest too great a volume of NME sugars. This is countered to some extent by the body’s own regulatory system in the form of insulin. Insulin is a hormone manufactured by the islets of Langerhans within the pancreas. Its main job is to regulate blood sugar levels. So when those levels get too high too quickly, insulin is released in large quantities to break those sugars down fast and return the blood sugar levels to equilibrium.

    What happens is that you get a fast rush of energy from the sugar as it’s processed and released into the bloodstream. This is rapidly followed by a rapid drop in energy as the insulin does its work. You then eat more food or drink more liquids that contain high levels of NME sugars and the process begins again.

    What this does is put a terrible strain on your pancreas in the constant creation and release of insulin. Eventually, the strain becomes too much and insulin production becomes erratic, meaning that blood sugar levels can no longer be effectively regulated. This leads to the onset of type II diabetes, which if not diagnosed and is allowed to degenerate further can lead to type I diabetes, which means having to manually injecting insulin to stay alive.
  • wild_wild_life
    wild_wild_life Posts: 1,334 Member
    Options
    Ah, this thread. What if we did this:

    1. Share opinions, conclusions, etc. based on experience, reading and research (with refs if you are making broad claims so everyone can see where you are coming from)
    2. Don't belittle people who have a different opinion or experience than you do
    3. Dont make fun of people who base their conclusions on sources you find unreliable -- point them to other sources instead

    Then we might actually be able to share ideas and learn from each other.

    There have been many sensible posts in this thread but they are ignored in favor of squabbling/teasing.

    On second thought, this radical idea could shut down the entire Internet...
  • AstroRocket
    AstroRocket Posts: 119 Member
    Options
    People should just ignore MFP limit on sugar, I ate one orange and it went over their limit. How stupid huh?
  • brit__2006
    brit__2006 Posts: 201 Member
    Options
    Ah, this thread. What if we did this:

    1. Share opinions, conclusions, etc. based on experience, reading and research (with refs if you are making broad claims so everyone can see where you are coming from)
    2. Don't belittle people who have a different opinion or experience than you do
    3. Dont make fun of people who base their conclusions on sources you find unreliable -- point them to other sources instead

    Then we might actually be able to share ideas and learn from each other.

    There have been many sensible posts in this thread but they are ignored in favor of squabbling/teasing.

    On second thought, this radical idea could shut down the entire Internet...

    I agree 100%.
    Makes me tired of posting my personal opinion or my experience just to have someone tell you you aren't right about your own weight loss and your own body. It's kind of ignorant. Not everyone has the same experience, so I think if someone asks a question and gets 100 answers due to personal experiences then that leaves it open to decide what's best for them rather than all the bashing.
  • floareaciprian
    floareaciprian Posts: 46 Member
    Options
    Please tell me more about ice cream and plateaus. I'm truly curious as to your experience, as I've never had one of these famed plateaus. Sure, I've eaten at maintenance calories for periods of time, but I have never failed to lose weight for any period of time in a calorie deficit, regardless of ice cream or beer.

    I find it interesting that in one post you are promising failure, and in another you're saying that you're just different. Which is it? Are there scientific principles that are applicable to the general population or is everyone so different that science is a waste of time?

    So i am going to achieve 10% body fat eating ice cream? Is that what you're implying? Gonna buy me some ice cream right now, see you later.
  • eric_sg61
    eric_sg61 Posts: 2,925 Member
    Options
    Please tell me more about ice cream and plateaus. I'm truly curious as to your experience, as I've never had one of these famed plateaus. Sure, I've eaten at maintenance calories for periods of time, but I have never failed to lose weight for any period of time in a calorie deficit, regardless of ice cream or beer.

    I find it interesting that in one post you are promising failure, and in another you're saying that you're just different. Which is it? Are there scientific principles that are applicable to the general population or is everyone so different that science is a waste of time?

    So i am going to achieve 10% body fat eating ice cream? Is that what you're implying? Gonna buy me some ice cream right now, see you later.
    Some have gotten lower than 10% by eating ice cream along with other sugary delights like kids cereal, pancakes slathered in syrup etc
  • markink81
    markink81 Posts: 73 Member
    Options
    Afraid of sugar? ... no not exactly, since I am reversing diabetes, sugar (or more specifically ANY carbohydrate more than 45g per meal) is not my friend. Fruit in moderation as a part of my whole food, veggie rich diet, hits the spot nicely.

    This....I was diagnosed with Type ll Diabetes 5 years ago. I control it with diet and exercise, if I omit one of the two from my lifestyle then my glucose numbers won't be stable. So by watching my exercise and what I eat I can control it. So staying away from refined sugars and White Flour are KEY for me. We get enough hidden sugars in our foods without me looking to add more.

    I don't particular have issues with Carbohydrates as long as they are complex carbs .The exercise component is key to me controlling this disease. Everything in moderation as far as I'm concerned is fine as long as you have no underlying health risks.
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    Options
    http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319
  • markink81
    markink81 Posts: 73 Member
    Options
    Please tell me more about ice cream and plateaus. I'm truly curious as to your experience, as I've never had one of these famed plateaus. Sure, I've eaten at maintenance calories for periods of time, but I have never failed to lose weight for any period of time in a calorie deficit, regardless of ice cream or beer.

    I find it interesting that in one post you are promising failure, and in another you're saying that you're just different. Which is it? Are there scientific principles that are applicable to the general population or is everyone so different that science is a waste of time?

    So i am going to achieve 10% body fat eating ice cream? Is that what you're implying? Gonna buy me some ice cream right now, see you later.
    Some have gotten lower than 10% by eating ice cream along with other sugary delights like kids cereal, pancakes slathered in syrup etc


    Oh to be young again...remember when I could get away with a crap diet and still make gains...Let me know how that works for you when your say about 50:wink:
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    Options
    Please tell me more about ice cream and plateaus. I'm truly curious as to your experience, as I've never had one of these famed plateaus. Sure, I've eaten at maintenance calories for periods of time, but I have never failed to lose weight for any period of time in a calorie deficit, regardless of ice cream or beer.

    I find it interesting that in one post you are promising failure, and in another you're saying that you're just different. Which is it? Are there scientific principles that are applicable to the general population or is everyone so different that science is a waste of time?

    So i am going to achieve 10% body fat eating ice cream? Is that what you're implying? Gonna buy me some ice cream right now, see you later.
    Some have gotten lower than 10% by eating ice cream along with other sugary delights like kids cereal, pancakes slathered in syrup etc


    Oh to be young again...remember when I could get away with a crap diet and still make gains...Let me know how that works for you when your say about 50:wink:

    You can still have ice cream or snacks at any age, you just may have a lower discretionary calorie intake due to energy expenditures not being as high as they are when you're younger. This changes overall quantity but it's not like you hit a certain age and suddenly specific food items become lipogenic. And obviously being diabetic you'd have even tighter restrictions but that part isn't necessarily age dependent.
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    Options
    This age card thing is ridiculous as is the black and white thinking that a diet must be either "entirely junk" or "no junk".

    There exists a massive grey area in between the two endpoints of "I eat a diet of exclusively ice cream" and "I eat exclusively whole foods without any added sugar" and quite frankly most people can and probably should lie somewhere in between those endpoints. But when we have discussions like this where people just exclude the middle and only talk about the endpoints they don't tend to get anywhere meaningful because now we're just setting up strawmen and knocking them down again.

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/excluding-the-middle.html

    I'm pretty sure nobody here is suggesting that anyone eat a diet that is predominantly ice cream.

    I will claim that everyone here, including diabetics at any age, can eat a diet that contains some quantity of ice cream and lose weight successfully provided the diet is tightly controlled. Young active males with no metabolic conditions will be allowed more ice cream than middle-aged diabetics, just as an example. Because energy output.

    Am I saying you all should eat ice cream? No, because for various reasons you may choose not to. Maybe you can only fit in half a scoop and that's just enough to piss you off and make you want to eat the whole container. That's a perfectly fine reason to choose not to. Maybe you don't like ice cream. Maybe you feel better eating a diet that is entirely composed of whole foods. All that's fine and dandy. But if you're going to claim that it, or sugar, will make you fat or shut down your immune system or give you cancer at any quantity that's when I'd say you're doing people a disservice by spreading your misinformation.
  • floareaciprian
    floareaciprian Posts: 46 Member
    Options
    This age card thing is ridiculous as is the black and white thinking that a diet must be either "entirely junk" or "no junk".

    There exists a massive grey area in between the two endpoints of "I eat a diet of exclusively ice cream" and "I eat exclusively whole foods without any added sugar" and quite frankly most people can and probably should lie somewhere in between those endpoints. But when we have discussions like this where people just exclude the middle and only talk about the endpoints they don't tend to get anywhere meaningful because now we're just setting up strawmen and knocking them down again.

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/excluding-the-middle.html

    I'm pretty sure nobody here is suggesting that anyone eat a diet that is predominantly ice cream.

    I will claim that everyone here, including diabetics at any age, can eat a diet that contains some quantity of ice cream and lose weight successfully provided the diet is tightly controlled. Young active males with no metabolic conditions will be allowed more ice cream than middle-aged diabetics, just as an example. Because energy output.

    Am I saying you all should eat ice cream? No, because for various reasons you may choose not to. Maybe you can only fit in half a scoop and that's just enough to piss you off and make you want to eat the whole container. That's a perfectly fine reason to choose not to. Maybe you don't like ice cream. Maybe you feel better eating a diet that is entirely composed of whole foods. All that's fine and dandy. But if you're going to claim that it, or sugar, will make you fat or shut down your immune system or give you cancer at any quantity that's when I'd say you're doing people a disservice by spreading your misinformation.

    It's easy to say all this when you're an ectomorph. C'mon man, spare me the lessons, no one eats just an ice cream or just a cup, they eat half a pound or more...sugar is bad for 99% of the population, just leave it at that. Btw, if anybody is an ectomorph and reads my message, please eat 3 kg of ice cream, it doesn't matter for you.

    Somebody is fooling themselves if they think that eating ice cream but in the same time staying at a caloric deficit will do the job. First of all, it won't and second...you'll be so dried out, have no energy and be hungry all the time because you cannot eat anything anymore, because you ate ice cream this morning and have no calories left to get in :))
  • markink81
    markink81 Posts: 73 Member
    Options
    This age card thing is ridiculous as is the black and white thinking that a diet must be either "entirely junk" or "no junk".

    There exists a massive grey area in between the two endpoints of "I eat a diet of exclusively ice cream" and "I eat exclusively whole foods without any added sugar" and quite frankly most people can and probably should lie somewhere in between those endpoints. But when we have discussions like this where people just exclude the middle and only talk about the endpoints they don't tend to get anywhere meaningful because now we're just setting up strawmen and knocking them down again.

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/excluding-the-middle.html

    I'm pretty sure nobody here is suggesting that anyone eat a diet that is predominantly ice cream.

    I will claim that everyone here, including diabetics at any age, can eat a diet that contains some quantity of ice cream and lose weight successfully provided the diet is tightly controlled. Young active males with no metabolic conditions will be allowed more ice cream than middle-aged diabetics, just as an example. Because energy output.

    Am I saying you all should eat ice cream? No, because for various reasons you may choose not to. Maybe you can only fit in half a scoop and that's just enough to piss you off and make you want to eat the whole container. That's a perfectly fine reason to choose not to. Maybe you don't like ice cream. Maybe you feel better eating a diet that is entirely composed of whole foods. All that's fine and dandy. But if you're going to claim that it, or sugar, will make you fat or shut down your immune system or give you cancer at any quantity that's when I'd say you're doing people a disservice by spreading your misinformation.

    Agree....You can lose weight eating Twinkes all day long if you wanted to and NO sugar won't make you fat or cause you to be fat...Amount of calories in and the amount of calories out will determine this regardless of your age.
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    Options
    This age card thing is ridiculous as is the black and white thinking that a diet must be either "entirely junk" or "no junk".

    There exists a massive grey area in between the two endpoints of "I eat a diet of exclusively ice cream" and "I eat exclusively whole foods without any added sugar" and quite frankly most people can and probably should lie somewhere in between those endpoints. But when we have discussions like this where people just exclude the middle and only talk about the endpoints they don't tend to get anywhere meaningful because now we're just setting up strawmen and knocking them down again.

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/excluding-the-middle.html

    I'm pretty sure nobody here is suggesting that anyone eat a diet that is predominantly ice cream.

    I will claim that everyone here, including diabetics at any age, can eat a diet that contains some quantity of ice cream and lose weight successfully provided the diet is tightly controlled. Young active males with no metabolic conditions will be allowed more ice cream than middle-aged diabetics, just as an example. Because energy output.

    Am I saying you all should eat ice cream? No, because for various reasons you may choose not to. Maybe you can only fit in half a scoop and that's just enough to piss you off and make you want to eat the whole container. That's a perfectly fine reason to choose not to. Maybe you don't like ice cream. Maybe you feel better eating a diet that is entirely composed of whole foods. All that's fine and dandy. But if you're going to claim that it, or sugar, will make you fat or shut down your immune system or give you cancer at any quantity that's when I'd say you're doing people a disservice by spreading your misinformation.

    It's easy to say all this when you're an ectomorph. C'mon man, spare me the lessons, no one eats just an ice cream or just a cup, they eat half a pound or more...sugar is bad for 99% of the population, just leave it at that. Btw, if anybody is an ectomorph and reads my message, please eat 3 kg of ice cream, it doesn't matter for you.

    Somebody is fooling themselves if they think that eating ice cream but in the same time staying at a caloric deficit will do the job. First of all, it won't and second...you'll be so dried out, have no energy and be hungry all the time because you cannot eat anything anymore, because you ate ice cream this morning and have no calories left to get in :))


    I'm convinced you are trolling at this point.
  • scottaworley
    scottaworley Posts: 871 Member
    Options
    This age card thing is ridiculous as is the black and white thinking that a diet must be either "entirely junk" or "no junk".

    There exists a massive grey area in between the two endpoints of "I eat a diet of exclusively ice cream" and "I eat exclusively whole foods without any added sugar" and quite frankly most people can and probably should lie somewhere in between those endpoints. But when we have discussions like this where people just exclude the middle and only talk about the endpoints they don't tend to get anywhere meaningful because now we're just setting up strawmen and knocking them down again.

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/excluding-the-middle.html

    I'm pretty sure nobody here is suggesting that anyone eat a diet that is predominantly ice cream.

    I will claim that everyone here, including diabetics at any age, can eat a diet that contains some quantity of ice cream and lose weight successfully provided the diet is tightly controlled. Young active males with no metabolic conditions will be allowed more ice cream than middle-aged diabetics, just as an example. Because energy output.

    Am I saying you all should eat ice cream? No, because for various reasons you may choose not to. Maybe you can only fit in half a scoop and that's just enough to piss you off and make you want to eat the whole container. That's a perfectly fine reason to choose not to. Maybe you don't like ice cream. Maybe you feel better eating a diet that is entirely composed of whole foods. All that's fine and dandy. But if you're going to claim that it, or sugar, will make you fat or shut down your immune system or give you cancer at any quantity that's when I'd say you're doing people a disservice by spreading your misinformation.

    It's easy to say all this when you're an ectomorph. C'mon man, spare me the lessons, no one eats just an ice cream or just a cup, they eat half a pound or more...sugar is bad for 99% of the population, just leave it at that. Btw, if anybody is an ectomorph and reads my message, please eat 3 kg of ice cream, it doesn't matter for you.

    Somebody is fooling themselves if they think that eating ice cream but in the same time staying at a caloric deficit will do the job. First of all, it won't and second...you'll be so dried out, have no energy and be hungry all the time because you cannot eat anything anymore, because you ate ice cream this morning and have no calories left to get in :))
    I ate half a cup of ice cream yesterday... Am I superhuman?
  • Achrya
    Achrya Posts: 16,913 Member
    Options
    This age card thing is ridiculous as is the black and white thinking that a diet must be either "entirely junk" or "no junk".

    There exists a massive grey area in between the two endpoints of "I eat a diet of exclusively ice cream" and "I eat exclusively whole foods without any added sugar" and quite frankly most people can and probably should lie somewhere in between those endpoints. But when we have discussions like this where people just exclude the middle and only talk about the endpoints they don't tend to get anywhere meaningful because now we're just setting up strawmen and knocking them down again.

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/excluding-the-middle.html

    I'm pretty sure nobody here is suggesting that anyone eat a diet that is predominantly ice cream.

    I will claim that everyone here, including diabetics at any age, can eat a diet that contains some quantity of ice cream and lose weight successfully provided the diet is tightly controlled. Young active males with no metabolic conditions will be allowed more ice cream than middle-aged diabetics, just as an example. Because energy output.

    Am I saying you all should eat ice cream? No, because for various reasons you may choose not to. Maybe you can only fit in half a scoop and that's just enough to piss you off and make you want to eat the whole container. That's a perfectly fine reason to choose not to. Maybe you don't like ice cream. Maybe you feel better eating a diet that is entirely composed of whole foods. All that's fine and dandy. But if you're going to claim that it, or sugar, will make you fat or shut down your immune system or give you cancer at any quantity that's when I'd say you're doing people a disservice by spreading your misinformation.

    It's easy to say all this when you're an ectomorph. C'mon man, spare me the lessons, no one eats just an ice cream or just a cup, they eat half a pound or more...sugar is bad for 99% of the population, just leave it at that. Btw, if anybody is an ectomorph and reads my message, please eat 3 kg of ice cream, it doesn't matter for you.

    Somebody is fooling themselves if they think that eating ice cream but in the same time staying at a caloric deficit will do the job. First of all, it won't and second...you'll be so dried out, have no energy and be hungry all the time because you cannot eat anything anymore, because you ate ice cream this morning and have no calories left to get in :))


    I'm convinced you are trolling at this point.

    Well duh.
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    Options
    This age card thing is ridiculous as is the black and white thinking that a diet must be either "entirely junk" or "no junk".

    There exists a massive grey area in between the two endpoints of "I eat a diet of exclusively ice cream" and "I eat exclusively whole foods without any added sugar" and quite frankly most people can and probably should lie somewhere in between those endpoints. But when we have discussions like this where people just exclude the middle and only talk about the endpoints they don't tend to get anywhere meaningful because now we're just setting up strawmen and knocking them down again.

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/excluding-the-middle.html

    I'm pretty sure nobody here is suggesting that anyone eat a diet that is predominantly ice cream.

    I will claim that everyone here, including diabetics at any age, can eat a diet that contains some quantity of ice cream and lose weight successfully provided the diet is tightly controlled. Young active males with no metabolic conditions will be allowed more ice cream than middle-aged diabetics, just as an example. Because energy output.

    Am I saying you all should eat ice cream? No, because for various reasons you may choose not to. Maybe you can only fit in half a scoop and that's just enough to piss you off and make you want to eat the whole container. That's a perfectly fine reason to choose not to. Maybe you don't like ice cream. Maybe you feel better eating a diet that is entirely composed of whole foods. All that's fine and dandy. But if you're going to claim that it, or sugar, will make you fat or shut down your immune system or give you cancer at any quantity that's when I'd say you're doing people a disservice by spreading your misinformation.

    It's easy to say all this when you're an ectomorph. C'mon man, spare me the lessons, no one eats just an ice cream or just a cup, they eat half a pound or more...sugar is bad for 99% of the population, just leave it at that. Btw, if anybody is an ectomorph and reads my message, please eat 3 kg of ice cream, it doesn't matter for you.

    Somebody is fooling themselves if they think that eating ice cream but in the same time staying at a caloric deficit will do the job. First of all, it won't and second...you'll be so dried out, have no energy and be hungry all the time because you cannot eat anything anymore, because you ate ice cream this morning and have no calories left to get in :))


    I'm convinced you are trolling at this point.

    Well duh.

    I'm a bit slow on the troll detection typically.
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,618 Member
    Options
    It's easy to say all this when you're an ectomorph. C'mon man, spare me the lessons, no one eats just an ice cream or just a cup, they eat half a pound or more...sugar is bad for 99% of the population, just leave it at that. Btw, if anybody is an ectomorph and reads my message, please eat 3 kg of ice cream, it doesn't matter for you.

    Somebody is fooling themselves if they think that eating ice cream but in the same time staying at a caloric deficit will do the job. First of all, it won't and second...you'll be so dried out, have no energy and be hungry all the time because you cannot eat anything anymore, because you ate ice cream this morning and have no calories left to get in :))
    Fascinating, broscience is strong is this one.

    You've been influenced by too much of it. Somatotypes don't exist (since everyone can really "convert" from one to the other) and the laws of thermodynamics are consistent. Disbelieving in science doesn't negate that it exists.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • eric_sg61
    eric_sg61 Posts: 2,925 Member
    Options
    Please tell me more about ice cream and plateaus. I'm truly curious as to your experience, as I've never had one of these famed plateaus. Sure, I've eaten at maintenance calories for periods of time, but I have never failed to lose weight for any period of time in a calorie deficit, regardless of ice cream or beer.

    I find it interesting that in one post you are promising failure, and in another you're saying that you're just different. Which is it? Are there scientific principles that are applicable to the general population or is everyone so different that science is a waste of time?

    So i am going to achieve 10% body fat eating ice cream? Is that what you're implying? Gonna buy me some ice cream right now, see you later.
    Some have gotten lower than 10% by eating ice cream along with other sugary delights like kids cereal, pancakes slathered in syrup etc


    Oh to be young again...remember when I could get away with a crap diet and still make gains...Let me know how that works for you when your say about 50:wink:
    It works for my father and grandfather who is 90....according to the "experts" in this thread he should have exploded from diabetes over 50 years ago by the amount if sugar he eats

Categories