Teen Bodybuilding for Strength not Show - Weight lifting

My teen is an XC runner. He's in kick *kitten* shape and pretty darn fast (youngest kid but 3rd fastest on XC team). The hs football coach noticed he has a "pretty decent" arm on him and catches just about anything (he throws FB all the time with whoever's around) and that he's crazy fast even for short distances (he used to be corner/tight end/receiver). The hs football coach would like him to join hs FB and I've said "No way, Jose, not until you are a little thicker". He needs to be thick enough to take a hit and lately he's lost weight. He's a smart kid and understands why he has to be a little thicker so he's shooting for next year's team.

So my question. What's do you think is the best long term weight lifting program for a teen who's going to tone down the 10 mile runs and move towards 2 - 4 mile runs adding in lifting for strength and flexibility (he does crossfit now and he's comfortable with chin ups, pull ups, light medicine ball, light weights, sit-ups, etc.). Though he'll be running track (track coach would probably have kittens if he quit the 2 mile since he's fastest on the team), he wants to get started now.

Time frame is long runs until November with lifting, then short runs starting in November with more intense lifting.

No supplements so no programs that rely on those. He's still a kid and doc says he's a slow grower so he'll probably keep growing for the next three years at least. He OK'd Muscle Milk and a simple whey protein shake but that is it.
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Replies

  • ChrisLindsay9
    ChrisLindsay9 Posts: 837 Member
    My trainer has had a lot of success in teaching kids 13 and older how to do weight training. Do you have the resources available to hire a personal trainer? Such as at a local gym? I think it would be beneficial and safe.
  • leslisa
    leslisa Posts: 1,350 Member
    We have a gym in our housing complex that my homeowner's fees support but it has no trainer. Between his 4.0 average, xc practice and meets (many out of town), soccer refereeing, surfing and my working 50 hours a week it's hard to find time to get him somewhere else. The gym in the complex is so much easier for both of us and he is self motivated so if I find a program of some sort, he'll do it.
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    Unfortunately Cross Country and Football are probably two sport that physically conflict with each other, especially if you want him to put on some weight. Putting weight on for football, even healthy weight, may hurt him in Cross Country or long distance Track events.

    From a diet standpoint the easiest way to do it is have him cut out as much crap as possible, get a lot of protein (~1gram / lb of bodyweight) and have him drink a half-gallon to 1 gallon of chocolate milk everyday. Whey protein would help too and Creatine is really not the end of the world. Look it up on actual peer reviewed journals and you'll see that it's not this awful supplement that doctors say it is. It's amazing how ignorant even doctors can be.

    Training wise: He needs to learn form on the main lifts, bench press, deadlift, and squat. You will probably need to get him a gym membership or buy him the stuff for a home gym.

    Training method: The following link is probably one of the best methods for training athletes. It focuses not only on getting stronger but also on being more explosive which a much needed trait in both football, sprints, and field events. Many people will look at it and say "oh no, not Westside it's so complicated and this and that..." but most of these people know nothing about Westside or this particular variation. I've trained a couple people with it, couple high school football players, and it's SUPER EASY to learn; the template is completely spelled out for the user.

    http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles/38-articles/65-westside-for-skinny-*kitten*-part3.html

    The first section at the top is a 4-day routine that should be followed in the off-season. Towards the bottom is a two-day routine for in-season athletes. Joe has a lot of good information on his site and within that link. Joe's whole focus is on training athletes, so this is a great site for reading for that purpose.

    Past that you can always try Starting Strength, StrongLifts 5x5, or even 5/3/1. As much as I like 5/3/1 I am partial to Westside for Skinny *kitten* 3 when it comes to training athletes.

    That's my two-cents. :)
  • phjorg1
    phjorg1 Posts: 642 Member
    If this is sports training, westside for skinny *kitten* 3 is the template he wants.
  • leslisa
    leslisa Posts: 1,350 Member
    Thanks folks! I appreciate it. I'm checking into both recommendations. He knows he'll be slower if he gets some weight on, that's why he's not going to start until after XC season :smile: .
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    Thanks folks! I appreciate it. I'm checking into both recommendations. He knows he'll be slower if he gets some weight on, that's why he's not going to start until after XC season :smile: .

    I don't know that he'll get slower but it would have some affect on endurance, maybe. Actually, with the training found in Westside for Skinny *kitten* 3 he may actually gain some speed and explosiveness. Who knows, maybe he'll go from running 800-meters to running the 400 or 200. :)
  • So I had a similar issue in high school. I played soccer, wrestled and rowed with wrestling as my main sport. My issue was that I was 6'2 at 170 lbs which is quite a target for smaller bulkier wrestlers at the 171 class so I went up to 215 for my Junior year and then cut down some bulk and was a really lean 189 (though my body preferred to be 195) my senior year. I proceeded to row for a really competitive college around that weight. I also had good grades if that helps.

    I respect what JNick77 has to say for the most part but I want to stress that hard gainers need to eat A LOT. I'd say try to keep your son eating lots of healthy food but definitely don't restrict him too much. He's going to want to get the calories wherever possible to be honest. He'll definitely need a lot of protein but considering the training that it sounds like he's doing, his body will definitely welcome the carbs. I was running 3+ miles most days, playing my sport and then lifting. I'd eat everything in sight to make up for those calories. Big staples were wheat pasta, chicken breast and egg white sandwiches with mustard.

    I do wish that back then there was as much information available for the actual weightlifting side of things as there is now. I would definitely look into many of the programs that have been talked about here. I personally kept most of my lifting to slow and steady movements since they made sure you activated every fiber in the muscles. I'm talking about taking at least a 2 or 3 count to fully contract a muscle and then a 4-5 count to recover. This meant that you could use lower weights since that speed made things much harder. This is important if your home gym doesn't have especially heavy weights. It will also enforce very strict form. Also if he's still growing, the really heavy stuff might not actually be good for him. The reps and what not will vary but him learning to work to true failure is the biggest lesson in lifting. If he has one more in him, he has to learn to hit that one extra rep. I'd say reaching failure between 6-12 reps is always a good indicator. Pick weights he can do only 6 reps at and do 3-5 sets each of those primary exercises in a full body workout (squat, deadlift, bench press, and shoulder press) until he's getting to the 10-12 rep range. Then increase the weight next workout. Make sure he gives himself at least 48 hours rest between these workouts. He can pick up other important supplementary exercises as he moves on. It sounds like he's smart enough to. Pick him up Arnold Schwarzenegger's Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding and let him experiment. He'll figure out what works for him. Just make sure he has a firm grasp of the most important exercises first. That might require at least one session with a trainer or knowledgeable friend.

    For the explosive workouts, just let him keep running but start adding a day or two of balls to the walls wind sprints, hill sprints or accelerations in place of long runs. If he can do 20 x 50+ yard full sprints while jogging back to the start each round, he'll be more than ready for football. Just make sure he doesn't do those type of workouts if he's too tight from lifting the day before. Otherwise, explosive weight workouts are more oriented for hitting people and it doesn't sound like that's what he's going to be doing. Runners primarily run.

    Some people in these forums really prefer workouts that are extremely strict. Your son's schedule doesn't sound like that'll work well for him. Just start by getting him into the basics and learning the movements. At his experience level, almost any muscle stimulation will cause gains. Once he plateaus (which is unlikely any time soon at his age) then you can look into more tailored workouts, split routines and all that.

    Conclusion, I support full body routines of the basics with really strict form 3 times a week for beginners. This means he won't be stuck at the gym everyday. Add sprint workouts to his running regimen. Eat everything in sight.

    If he doesn't see gains, then try out one of these other specific workouts. At least he'll have the basic exercises down.
  • 3laine75
    3laine75 Posts: 3,069 Member
    get him the book 'starting strength' and stock up on milk :) teenagers don't tend to have a problem eating so you probably won't need to get whey/supplements etc.

    pretty sure this programme was designed for teenagers.
  • I actually really like Starting Strength but I'm not sure you'd want a a teenager with limited knowledge doing only heavy lifts without a coach or workout partner.

    I did leave out Pull Ups in my long drawn out reply. Slow pull ups are great. Weight belt or vest if they start getting too easy.
  • jimmmer
    jimmmer Posts: 3,515 Member
    Just to add +1 to JNick: DeFranco's WS4SB 3 has a template for integrating running (he calls it the Holy Grail.....). Obviously the amount of lifting is cut down slightly to accommodate the extra stress from the running.

    Another way to do it would be to pick a 2 month off-season and just run a pure mass building programme (something like Dan John's Mass Made Simple is designed for the football off-season), sacrificing c-v and endurance for a short period in order to pack on some beef and then strip off any accumulated fat with the increased c-v work after you've finished. If he feels he can't sacrifice his running for 2 months, then DeFranco's is a better option.

    Whatever he chooses to do - he'll have to eat like a horse. And sleep a lot. Eating and sleeping will be key.
  • Alehmer
    Alehmer Posts: 433 Member
    You just can't go wrong with anything from Westside Barbell. Wrestling would also be EXCELLENT as a crosstraining sport.
  • haroon_awan
    haroon_awan Posts: 1,208 Member
    Get him on a strength training program for starters. Something like StrongLifts 5x5 or Starting Strength and begin to track his caloric intake so he can start to gain some weight on a surplus. Nothing too large, eg a 200-300 calorie surplus.

    You might be better off to post this in http://www.myfitnesspal.com/forums/show/10067-eat-train-progress- as there are plenty of experienced folk who are more likely to see and regularly check that forum than the whole community forum.

    There are some great YouTube channels out there that might also be helpful, eg
    http://www.youtube.com/user/CampbellFitnessTV
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Team3DMJ
    http://www.youtube.com/user/bryce126
    http://www.youtube.com/user/overtimeathletes/
    http://www.youtube.com/user/sanfranciscocrossfit
  • leslisa
    leslisa Posts: 1,350 Member
    I don't know that he'll get slower but it would have some affect on endurance, maybe. Actually, with the training found in Westside for Skinny *kitten* 3 he may actually gain some speed and explosiveness. Who knows, maybe he'll go from running 800-meters to running the 400 or 200. :)

    He runs XC and 2 mile right now. 11 min 2 mile and a good 5k is about 18min 20sec.

    He's considering the 400 but realistically he has issues coming out of the blocks so not sure it will work for him...
  • leslisa
    leslisa Posts: 1,350 Member
    Get him on a strength training program for starters. Something like StrongLifts 5x5 or Starting Strength and begin to track his caloric intake so he can start to gain some weight on a surplus. Nothing too large, eg a 200-300 calorie surplus.

    You might be better off to post this in http://www.myfitnesspal.com/forums/show/10067-eat-train-progress- as there are plenty of experienced folk who are more likely to see and regularly check that forum than the whole community forum.

    There are some great YouTube channels out there that might also be helpful, eg
    http://www.youtube.com/user/CampbellFitnessTV
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Team3DMJ
    http://www.youtube.com/user/bryce126
    http://www.youtube.com/user/overtimeathletes/
    http://www.youtube.com/user/sanfranciscocrossfit

    Thank you for the info. I'll check it out. While he's waiting he started the P90X as that seems like it will work out with his XC and get him started. He's counting days as to when he gets to bulk up :). He's definitely going to have to increase his intake. He's already lost 3 lbs this season and he's a skinny guy already.
  • leslisa
    leslisa Posts: 1,350 Member
    You just can't go wrong with anything from Westside Barbell. Wrestling would also be EXCELLENT as a crosstraining sport.

    He won't wrestle because of the uniform. We've asked. The wrestling kids have even tried to talk him into it and no go.
  • leslisa
    leslisa Posts: 1,350 Member
    Just to add +1 to JNick: DeFranco's WS4SB 3 has a template for integrating running (he calls it the Holy Grail.....). Obviously the amount of lifting is cut down slightly to accommodate the extra stress from the running.

    Another way to do it would be to pick a 2 month off-season and just run a pure mass building programme (something like Dan John's Mass Made Simple is designed for the football off-season), sacrificing c-v and endurance for a short period in order to pack on some beef and then strip off any accumulated fat with the increased c-v work after you've finished. If he feels he can't sacrifice his running for 2 months, then DeFranco's is a better option.

    Whatever he chooses to do - he'll have to eat like a horse. And sleep a lot. Eating and sleeping will be key.

    He does take Nov - Dec off. We coach middle school pre-season track at that time. I usually put him with the sprinters as the Rabbit and do the LD kids by myself. But I'm thinking I could put him with the throwers. They do a lot more muscle toning/building and only run 1/2 mile at a time (and slow - most of them are really, really slow).

    Eating like a horse will be hard. He's consuming ~2500 - 3000 cals a day and still losing weight because he's growing again and running so much. Added to that is that he has a super fast metabolism like his dad. I'll check out the program you suggested. We have another month.

    Thank you to everyone. Really appreciate everything. Looks like I have some research to do.
  • _noob_
    _noob_ Posts: 3,306 Member
    Tie him down, and shove food down his throat until he can't breathe and put him on a program like starting strength or stronglifts.
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    Just to add +1 to JNick: DeFranco's WS4SB 3 has a template for integrating running (he calls it the Holy Grail.....). Obviously the amount of lifting is cut down slightly to accommodate the extra stress from the running.

    Another way to do it would be to pick a 2 month off-season and just run a pure mass building programme (something like Dan John's Mass Made Simple is designed for the football off-season), sacrificing c-v and endurance for a short period in order to pack on some beef and then strip off any accumulated fat with the increased c-v work after you've finished. If he feels he can't sacrifice his running for 2 months, then DeFranco's is a better option.

    Whatever he chooses to do - he'll have to eat like a horse. And sleep a lot. Eating and sleeping will be key.

    He does take Nov - Dec off. We coach middle school pre-season track at that time. I usually put him with the sprinters as the Rabbit and do the LD kids by myself. But I'm thinking I could put him with the throwers. They do a lot more muscle toning/building and only run 1/2 mile at a time (and slow - most of them are really, really slow).

    Eating like a horse will be hard. He's consuming ~2500 - 3000 cals a day and still losing weight because he's growing again and running so much. Added to that is that he has a super fast metabolism like his dad. I'll check out the program you suggested. We have another month.

    Thank you to everyone. Really appreciate everything. Looks like I have some research to do.

    If he's eating 3000 cal's a day then it sounds like he's going to need a lot more to put on some mass. It's hard to say what at this point but to take a rough swag at it, have him drink a 1/2 gallon of chocolate milk every day. It's inexpensive and effective and what kid is going to turn down chocolate milk? LOL :)
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    If want to be like say jay Cutler steroids and Hormonas needed

    Ha, that would help. But even with all that **** he needs to eat a ton of food or it doesn't work anyway.
  • scottaworley
    scottaworley Posts: 871 Member
    If want to be like say jay Cutler steroids and Hormonas needed

    Ha, that would help. But even with all that **** he needs to eat a ton of food or it doesn't work anyway.

    i think inject peptides and drink egg will help
  • Huffdogg
    Huffdogg Posts: 1,934 Member
    get him the book 'starting strength' and stock up on milk :) teenagers don't tend to have a problem eating so you probably won't need to get whey/supplements etc.

    pretty sure this programme was designed for teenagers.

    It was most certainly designed with the crossover into practical strength for sports; particularly football.

    I would support this also, as long as the gym he has access to has a power rack he needn't worry about needing a training partner. I have lifted alone ever since I started doing barbell lifts.
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    get him the book 'starting strength' and stock up on milk :) teenagers don't tend to have a problem eating so you probably won't need to get whey/supplements etc.

    pretty sure this programme was designed for teenagers.

    It was most certainly designed with the crossover into practical strength for sports; particularly football.

    I would support this also, as long as the gym he has access to has a power rack he needn't worry about needing a training partner. I have lifted alone ever since I started doing barbell lifts.

    Starting Strength is a fine beginner's program but it's not optimal for athletes; it's still pretty one-dimensional. If he just wanted to get stronger and put on some mass that would be a fine start that I could support. However; he is an athlete first and foremost and something like Westside for Skinny *kitten* 3 is a far more dynamic training system for athletes that is also very very simple to use. Plus, it covers off-season training AND in-season training. Joe DeFranco really knows his **** when it comes to training athletes and he trains athletes of all levels, high school through pro.
  • jimmmer
    jimmmer Posts: 3,515 Member
    get him the book 'starting strength' and stock up on milk :) teenagers don't tend to have a problem eating so you probably won't need to get whey/supplements etc.

    pretty sure this programme was designed for teenagers.

    It was most certainly designed with the crossover into practical strength for sports; particularly football.

    I would support this also, as long as the gym he has access to has a power rack he needn't worry about needing a training partner. I have lifted alone ever since I started doing barbell lifts.

    Starting Strength is a fine beginner's program but it's not optimal for athletes; it's still pretty one-dimensional. If he just wanted to get stronger and put on some mass that would be a fine start that I could support. However; he is an athlete first and foremost and something like Westside for Skinny *kitten* 3 is a far more dynamic training system for athletes that is also very very simple to use. Plus, it covers off-season training AND in-season training. Joe DeFranco really knows his **** when it comes to training athletes and he trains athletes of all levels, high school through pro.

    This is why I would recommend DeFranco or Dan John: both are interested in training athletes and their programmes have been developed through that lens.

    It's trendy around here to trot out starting strength as the answer to all questions lifting related, but I would look to others for this kind of stuff.

    As regards the off-season, for 2 months with minimal to no c-v work, he could put on some mass with less calories. If he's going to keep running, etc., then he's going to need a metric ****-tonne of calories. The chocolate milk's a great suggestion, btw, if he can stomach a gallon of it a day! One of Dan John's suggestions is to make a load of peanut butter and jam sarnies and munch them through the day to get in extra cals here and there between regular meals.....
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    get him the book 'starting strength' and stock up on milk :) teenagers don't tend to have a problem eating so you probably won't need to get whey/supplements etc.

    pretty sure this programme was designed for teenagers.

    It was most certainly designed with the crossover into practical strength for sports; particularly football.

    I would support this also, as long as the gym he has access to has a power rack he needn't worry about needing a training partner. I have lifted alone ever since I started doing barbell lifts.

    Starting Strength is a fine beginner's program but it's not optimal for athletes; it's still pretty one-dimensional. If he just wanted to get stronger and put on some mass that would be a fine start that I could support. However; he is an athlete first and foremost and something like Westside for Skinny *kitten* 3 is a far more dynamic training system for athletes that is also very very simple to use. Plus, it covers off-season training AND in-season training. Joe DeFranco really knows his **** when it comes to training athletes and he trains athletes of all levels, high school through pro.

    This is why I would recommend DeFranco or Dan John: both are interested in training athletes and their programmes have been developed through that lens.

    It's trendy around here to trot out starting strength as the answer to all questions lifting related, but I would look to others for this kind of stuff.

    As regards the off-season, for 2 months with minimal to no c-v work, he could put on some mass with less calories. If he's going to keep running, etc., then he's going to need a metric ****-tonne of calories. The chocolate milk's a great suggestion, btw, if he can stomach a gallon of it a day! One of Dan John's suggestions is to make a load of peanut butter and jam sarnies and munch them through the day to get in extra cals here and there between regular meals.....

    Yeah, training athletes is a little different than just training strength for the general population. Getting stronger will make an athlete better at their sport but there are other components to becoming more athletic, explosiveness, speed development, agility, mobility, and time to practice their sport.Trainers like Joe DeFranco, Dan John, Chad Smith, Louie Smith (he actually works with many NFL and NBA teams too) are all recognized as expert when it comes to training athletes because their methods focus on more than just absolute strength.

    The Peanut Butter and Jelly sounds good, though I'm partial to Almond Butter. LOL! The one thing that I like about the Choc Milk concept is that there is a fair amount of protein consumption with that approach. Unfortunately dairy isn't always well tolerated so the PB&J / AB&J (w00t!) is a great option as well.
  • leslisa
    leslisa Posts: 1,350 Member
    Tie him down, and shove food down his throat until he can't breathe and put him on a program like starting strength or stronglifts.

    I wish I could but he's bigger than me. Course I'm meaner than him. Hmm.......
  • leslisa
    leslisa Posts: 1,350 Member
    get him the book 'starting strength' and stock up on milk :) teenagers don't tend to have a problem eating so you probably won't need to get whey/supplements etc.

    pretty sure this programme was designed for teenagers.

    It was most certainly designed with the crossover into practical strength for sports; particularly football.

    I would support this also, as long as the gym he has access to has a power rack he needn't worry about needing a training partner. I have lifted alone ever since I started doing barbell lifts.

    Was looking at this on Amazon. Do you know if there is any difference worth noting in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd editions? Which edition do you have?
  • leslisa
    leslisa Posts: 1,350 Member
    Thanks folks! I appreciate it. I'm checking into both recommendations. He knows he'll be slower if he gets some weight on, that's why he's not going to start until after XC season :smile: .

    I don't know that he'll get slower but it would have some affect on endurance, maybe. Actually, with the training found in Westside for Skinny *kitten* 3 he may actually gain some speed and explosiveness. Who knows, maybe he'll go from running 800-meters to running the 400 or 200. :)

    Every 5 pounds slows an LD down a certain percent. I've read multiple studies from various universities on the same subject (yeah, I'm a runner :). Even if he remains at speed or even increases speed he won't be as fast as if he still had the XC physique.
  • erickirb
    erickirb Posts: 12,294 Member
    Just to note, you don't have to be big to play, strong helps though. In my first year high school (I started at slot and WR, and was back-up running back) at 5'6" 136lbs.

    I would suggest a program that focuses on the Big compound lifts at a heavy weight. And have him eat at a surplus, this may be 4000 cals or so a day if he is very active.
  • leslisa
    leslisa Posts: 1,350 Member
    If want to be like say jay Cutler steroids and Hormones needed

    :laugh: Nah. No NFL that I see. NFL is kick you in the *kitten* consistent. Wow! Who is that guy? Did you see that? Amazing!

    He's athletic. He's intelligent. He can throw a football down the field with accuracy. He can catch a ball one handed under his leg, in the air twisting, or behind his back (and a bunch of other ways that I'm pretty certain server 0 purpose). I've seen him run down a kid a safety missed and tackle or hold guys three times his size (or better hold three guys his size). Sounds neat, right? Except there are probably twenty thousand kids just like him who can throw and catch and everything else - only better.

    His dad and I encourage him to do what he wants and if he commits to something then to do it the right way, not to screw around and end up getting hurt or letting himself and/or team down. HS should be fun. If lifting and FB make fun, awesome!
  • leslisa
    leslisa Posts: 1,350 Member
    Just to note, you don't have to be big to play, strong helps though. In my first year high school (I started at slot and WR, and was back-up running back) at 5'6" 136lbs.

    I would suggest a program that focuses on the Big compound lifts at a heavy weight. And have him eat at a surplus, this may be 4000 cals or so a day if he is very active.

    He's 5'7" and 120 lbs. Even 16 pounds would help. I'll help him work on the calories.