"The problem with sugar is your problem with sugar"

I want to know what this intracranial self stimulation thing is all about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_stimulation_reward

Yeah, I looked it up too. Doesn't sound as fun if they have to put in electrodes first.

Yep. It pretty much looks like a science fiction movie. I'm a little afraid to Google 'forced swim'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioural_despair_test

It's actually kind of interesting. I see a correlate in posting on the boards. How long does it take to realize it's hopeless?

About a year, in my experience.

And yet here we are, still swimming...

But

cmeirun,

I've seen a lot of topics posted lately regarding sugar, and thought I'd share this article I just read. It's long, but it's a very good read and provides a science- and evidence-based discussion of the carbohydrate that causes such consternation:

http://www.fitnessbaddies.com/your-problem-with-sugar-is-the-problem-with-sugar/

Enjoy, fellow sweet-toothers!

Thank you for posting.
With all due respect, I didn't see much in the way of evidence in the blog post. The following might provide some balance:

http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/sugar/

kind regards,

Ben

Did you read either article? The one you provided had some nice facts in it that no one here nor the original article would refute but was also lacking in any real substance. It doesn't address the original post at all. Here it is in its entirety.

Sugar consumption alone does not appear to cause hyperactivity in children, although it obviously is not good for kids’ teeth and has been tied to the risk of diabetes. In fact, 17% of calories in the American diet come from added sugars. The gratuitous inclusion of sugar in the USDA Dietary Guidelines may be due to corporate influence (see here, here, here, here, here). Sugar and high fructose corn syrup are about equal in terms of nutritional value (which is about zero). However, high fructose corn syrup may contain mercury so sugar may be a relatively safer option. There actually are two sweeteners that have some nutrition (see also here).

The sugar in dark chocolate means cocoa powder is a better choice to reduce bad cholesterol and boost good cholesterol. Similarly, commercial cranberry juice and Cheerios have added sugar which detracts from their value as health-promoting foods. The addition of cinnamon to meats may actually blunt the blood sugar spike caused by sugary foods.

However, the bolded line was hilarious.


The sugar in dark chocolate means cocoa powder is a better choice? What does this even mean? What does the sugar in dark chocolate have to do with the cocoa powder? Were they trying to say that dark chocolate is better than milk chocolate because it has less sugar and more cocoa powder? It's hard to take an article seriously when it has such indecipherable statements like that one in it.

In closing, this added nothing to OPs article. It neither refuted it nor supported it. It was just a bunch of loosely related facts.

Not all chocolate is created equal. Cocoa has a ton of flavonoids in it that are great for your health (and heart!). In fact, cocoa powder ranks higher than nearly all of the super fruits when it comes to antioxidants and polyphenols. However, the addition of milk breaks down those flavonoids, and the negative effects of sugar start diminishing the positives of the cocoa. Therefore dark chocolate is better than milk chocolate, and cocoa powder (which has neither milk nor sugar) is better than even dark chocolate.

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20110207/is-chocolate-the-next-super-food

Also, the processed sources of sugar, such as Oreos, are actually engineered to cause a physiological addictive response (these are known as "highly palatable foods").

*kitten*!! I can never find my tinfoil hat when I need it!

Yes, because pointing out that food manufacturers would and do do things to influence people's purchase decisions (which is pretty much business 101, by the way - do what you can to get people to buy more) is clearly grounds for tinfoil hatting. Because, you know, it's not like there's precedence from other consumer products industries or anything...

http://www.drugfree.org/join-together/addiction/philip-morris-admits-making
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Healthday/story?id=4508170&page=1

Oh, wait...

Also, the processed sources of sugar, such as Oreos, are actually engineered to cause a physiological addictive response (these are known as "highly palatable foods").

I can never find my tinfoil hat when I need it!

Yes, because pointing out that food manufacturers would and do do things to influence people's purchase decisions (which is pretty much business 101, by the way - do what you can to get people to buy more) is clearly grounds for tinfoil hatting. Because, you know, it's not like there's precedence from other consumer products industries or anything...

http://www.drugfree.org/join-together/addiction/philip-morris-admits-making
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Healthday/story?id=4508170&page=1

Oh, wait...

[/quote]

so you're saying cigarettes are food???

are you by any chance a big fan of The X-Files?

Dragonwolf: Cigarettes are not food.

Just want to come back and say that I'm doing a several day carb depletion as part of a pre-marathon nutrition plan (come Thursday I eat ALL THE CARBS). I have a slight headache and am a little bit foggy and irritable.

Anyone who compares this feeling to actual drug withdrawl is a f*cking moron.

Irritable? You don't say...

( :flowerforyou: )

I'mover on my sugar according to MFP by midday almost every single day. Boo.

Yeah, just checked Reports myself. Out of the last 90 days I was under exactly 5 times. MFP has my limit pegged at 43 g (out of a total of 293 g carbs... ). My breakfast banana and lunchtime apple are 43 g sugar right there.

What i got from the article was...... Sugar is not the problem... so just sayinf i'm going to not eat sugar and expect weightloss won't work. Learngin and understanding how things truely play a roll in nutrition and being educated will help in the long run. Sugar is not the devil excess is the devil. end of story. and moderation will help people who try and go cold turkey and fail because they get consumed by the fact that they are eliminating an ingredient and then dissaspointed when they slip when in the long run having sugar won't ruin your goal for healthier life or weightoss. The point is that the thought process that eliminating sugar from your life is some magical cure is false and misleading and a setup for failure,.

I wish I would have just read your message instead of the many many many minutes I spend trying to get through her article. Can we say less is more! I kept getting lost on what the hell her message was supposed to be saying. You were succinct (briefly and clearly expressed) and I believe hit the nail on the head. However, I still think you have to ultimately do what works for you and finding that "works for me" can take some practice and is different for different people. Love these threads though, they make me laugh so hard.

Dragonwolf: Cigarettes are not food.

Where did I ever say they were? They are, however, a consumer product, and one that people consume. In the case of cigarettes, one burns them and inhales the smoke. That's still consumption, and it still has an effect on the body and causes a dopamine response, driving people to want more after they come down from the high. Some people have a stronger drive than others.

Additionally, a company doesn't have to learn tactics solely from its own industry. In fact, a smart executive will look for successes in other industries and see if/how they can apply it to their own. Therefore, it's not much of a stretch, let alone tinfoil hat territory, to think that a company like Nestle, Nabisco, or Frito-Lay would look at the fact that Phillip Morris toys with their ingredients in order to get more people to buy their product and get the people who are buying to buy more/more often, and start experimenting with their own, based on the fact that humans have evolved to go after things that taste sweet, salty, and fatty. Get some combination of all three that makes it very hard to resist, because it triggers a dopamine response far beyond what can be found in nature (where sweet, salty, and fatty are rarely found together in a single food item), and you can increase revenue. Like I said, business 101. It's not tinfoil hat, it's smart business.

Just want to come back and say that I'm doing a several day carb depletion as part of a pre-marathon nutrition plan (come Thursday I eat ALL THE CARBS). I have a slight headache and am a little bit foggy and irritable.

Anyone who compares this feeling to actual drug withdrawl is a f*cking moron.

Not all drugs are black tar heroine or crack cocaine and come with got-hit-by-a-train withdrawal symptoms. Alcohol and prescription medications are still drugs, and they can still cause withdrawal symptoms. The withdrawal symptoms vary depending on the specific substance due to how it interacts with a given individual, how much of a tolerance they have, and how much (and for how long) they've been consuming the substance. Even for the same substance, the withdrawal symptoms can vary from person to person. Even things like Tylenol and Ibuprofen can cause what is known as "rebound," or a returning of the symptoms they were taken to relieve, as an effect of stopping them, if you take them too often or for too long.

Additionally, just because you only felt "a little bit foggy and irritable," it doesn't mean those are the only symptoms felt by people, or that the severity with which you've felt it is the only severity level (nor does it mean that they aren't withdrawal symptoms). It's known as "carb flu" for a reason - many of the symptoms include chills, shakiness, nausea, fatigue, irritability, and brain fog - flu-like symptoms. And like anything else, the number and severity of the symptoms depends on the individual.

Dragonwolf: Cigarettes are not food.

Where did I ever say they were? They are, however, a consumer product, and one that people consume. In the case of cigarettes, one burns them and inhales the smoke. That's still consumption, and it still has an effect on the body and causes a dopamine response, driving people to want more after they come down from the high. Some people have a stronger drive than others.

Additionally, a company doesn't have to learn tactics solely from its own industry. In fact, a smart executive will look for successes in other industries and see if/how they can apply it to their own. Therefore, it's not much of a stretch, let alone tinfoil hat territory, to think that a company like Nestle, Nabisco, or Frito-Lay would look at the fact that Phillip Morris toys with their ingredients in order to get more people to buy their product and get the people who are buying to buy more/more often, and start experimenting with their own, based on the fact that humans have evolved to go after things that taste sweet, salty, and fatty. Get some combination of all three that makes it very hard to resist, because it triggers a dopamine response far beyond what can be found in nature (where sweet, salty, and fatty are rarely found together in a single food item), and you can increase revenue. Like I said, business 101. It's not tinfoil hat, it's smart business.

Just want to come back and say that I'm doing a several day carb depletion as part of a pre-marathon nutrition plan (come Thursday I eat ALL THE CARBS). I have a slight headache and am a little bit foggy and irritable.

Anyone who compares this feeling to actual drug withdrawl is a f*cking moron.

Not all drugs are black tar heroine or crack cocaine and come with got-hit-by-a-train withdrawal symptoms. Alcohol and prescription medications are still drugs, and they can still cause withdrawal symptoms. The withdrawal symptoms vary depending on the specific substance due to how it interacts with a given individual, how much of a tolerance they have, and how much (and for how long) they've been consuming the substance. Even for the same substance, the withdrawal symptoms can vary from person to person. Even things like Tylenol and Ibuprofen can cause what is known as "rebound," or a returning of the symptoms they were taken to relieve, as an effect of stopping them, if you take them too often or for too long.

Additionally, just because you only felt "a little bit foggy and irritable," it doesn't mean those are the only symptoms felt by people, or that the severity with which you've felt it is the only severity level (nor does it mean that they aren't withdrawal symptoms). It's known as "carb flu" for a reason - many of the symptoms include chills, shakiness, nausea, fatigue, irritability, and brain fog - flu-like symptoms. And like anything else, the number and severity of the symptoms depends on the individual.

LOL at thinking alcohol detox tremors or oxy withdrawl are like going without carbs for a few days.

Just WOW!

Like I said earlier in the thread, nicotine is the reason I know the difference between an addiction and a bad habit. Name *any* food that is part of your wild claim and I can promise you that I can eat one serving of it then put it down. It's *not* addictive. Nicotine is.

You seem to have missed the part where I stated that the effects depend on how long a person has been consuming the substance in question, and how it affects their body to begin with. One also doesn't need to be "addicted" in the traditional sense to experience withdrawal symptoms (for example, I've dealt with the withdrawal symptoms of Celexa, which is one of the worst SSRIs to suddenly withdraw from in terms of withdrawal symptoms, even though I was never addicted to it).

That said, any highly palatable food has the potential to cause withdrawal symptoms, though many people probably don't recognize it as such, because it generally comes in the form of a depressive state that a) may or may not be enough to warrant concern (ie - be the aforementioned "slightly irritable") or b) may not even be connected by the layman observers. The drive to eat another potato chip or cookie or whatever is the drive to remove oneself from that depressive state, regardless of whether the suffer is consciously aware of it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22854309

And, to reiterate, just because it can cause withdrawal symptoms, it doesn't mean it always will for every single person, or to the same degree (the same can be said for all potentially addictive substances). So, just because you, personally, don't feel the need to keep eating the box of Twinkies, it doesn't mean everyone else has the same reaction.

Dragonwolf: Cigarettes are not food.

Where did I ever say they were? They are, however, a consumer product, and one that people consume. In the case of cigarettes, one burns them and inhales the smoke. That's still consumption, and it still has an effect on the body and causes a dopamine response, driving people to want more after they come down from the high. Some people have a stronger drive than others.

Additionally, a company doesn't have to learn tactics solely from its own industry. In fact, a smart executive will look for successes in other industries and see if/how they can apply it to their own. Therefore, it's not much of a stretch, let alone tinfoil hat territory, to think that a company like Nestle, Nabisco, or Frito-Lay would look at the fact that Phillip Morris toys with their ingredients in order to get more people to buy their product and get the people who are buying to buy more/more often, and start experimenting with their own, based on the fact that humans have evolved to go after things that taste sweet, salty, and fatty. Get some combination of all three that makes it very hard to resist, because it triggers a dopamine response far beyond what can be found in nature (where sweet, salty, and fatty are rarely found together in a single food item), and you can increase revenue. Like I said, business 101. It's not tinfoil hat, it's smart business.

Just want to come back and say that I'm doing a several day carb depletion as part of a pre-marathon nutrition plan (come Thursday I eat ALL THE CARBS). I have a slight headache and am a little bit foggy and irritable.

Anyone who compares this feeling to actual drug withdrawl is a f*cking moron.

Not all drugs are black tar heroine or crack cocaine and come with got-hit-by-a-train withdrawal symptoms. Alcohol and prescription medications are still drugs, and they can still cause withdrawal symptoms. The withdrawal symptoms vary depending on the specific substance due to how it interacts with a given individual, how much of a tolerance they have, and how much (and for how long) they've been consuming the substance. Even for the same substance, the withdrawal symptoms can vary from person to person. Even things like Tylenol and Ibuprofen can cause what is known as "rebound," or a returning of the symptoms they were taken to relieve, as an effect of stopping them, if you take them too often or for too long.

Additionally, just because you only felt "a little bit foggy and irritable," it doesn't mean those are the only symptoms felt by people, or that the severity with which you've felt it is the only severity level (nor does it mean that they aren't withdrawal symptoms). It's known as "carb flu" for a reason - many of the symptoms include chills, shakiness, nausea, fatigue, irritability, and brain fog - flu-like symptoms. And like anything else, the number and severity of the symptoms depends on the individual.

LOL at thinking alcohol detox tremors or oxy withdrawl are like going without carbs for a few days.

LOL at reading comprehension fail.

I never once said that. In fact, I very specifically said that not all substances have the same withdrawal symptoms as the hard drugs that everyone thinks about when they see the term "withdrawal."

so, let's see if i have this correct...

- processed food is bad.
- food companies purposely make processed food addictive.
- you eat "primal".

here's my conclusion...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/c/confirmation_bias.htm

Dragonwolf: Cigarettes are not food.

Where did I ever say they were? They are, however, a consumer product, and one that people consume. In the case of cigarettes, one burns them and inhales the smoke. That's still consumption, and it still has an effect on the body and causes a dopamine response, driving people to want more after they come down from the high. Some people have a stronger drive than others.

Additionally, a company doesn't have to learn tactics solely from its own industry. In fact, a smart executive will look for successes in other industries and see if/how they can apply it to their own. Therefore, it's not much of a stretch, let alone tinfoil hat territory, to think that a company like Nestle, Nabisco, or Frito-Lay would look at the fact that Phillip Morris toys with their ingredients in order to get more people to buy their product and get the people who are buying to buy more/more often, and start experimenting with their own, based on the fact that humans have evolved to go after things that taste sweet, salty, and fatty. Get some combination of all three that makes it very hard to resist, because it triggers a dopamine response far beyond what can be found in nature (where sweet, salty, and fatty are rarely found together in a single food item), and you can increase revenue. Like I said, business 101. It's not tinfoil hat, it's smart business.

Just want to come back and say that I'm doing a several day carb depletion as part of a pre-marathon nutrition plan (come Thursday I eat ALL THE CARBS). I have a slight headache and am a little bit foggy and irritable.

Anyone who compares this feeling to actual drug withdrawl is a f*cking moron.

Not all drugs are black tar heroine or crack cocaine and come with got-hit-by-a-train withdrawal symptoms. Alcohol and prescription medications are still drugs, and they can still cause withdrawal symptoms. The withdrawal symptoms vary depending on the specific substance due to how it interacts with a given individual, how much of a tolerance they have, and how much (and for how long) they've been consuming the substance. Even for the same substance, the withdrawal symptoms can vary from person to person. Even things like Tylenol and Ibuprofen can cause what is known as "rebound," or a returning of the symptoms they were taken to relieve, as an effect of stopping them, if you take them too often or for too long.

Additionally, just because you only felt "a little bit foggy and irritable," it doesn't mean those are the only symptoms felt by people, or that the severity with which you've felt it is the only severity level (nor does it mean that they aren't withdrawal symptoms). It's known as "carb flu" for a reason - many of the symptoms include chills, shakiness, nausea, fatigue, irritability, and brain fog - flu-like symptoms. And like anything else, the number and severity of the symptoms depends on the individual.

LOL at thinking alcohol detox tremors or oxy withdrawl are like going without carbs for a few days.

LOL at reading comprehension fail.

I never once said that. In fact, I very specifically said that not all substances have the same withdrawal symptoms as the hard drugs that everyone thinks about when they see the term "withdrawal."

just gonna bold the part where you say that alcohol and pill don't have bad withdrawl symptoms.

also I think you would be happier if you had some toast.

but how many calories are in that black tar heroine? thats the big question...

Dragonwolf: Cigarettes are not food.

Where did I ever say they were? They are, however, a consumer product, and one that people consume. In the case of cigarettes, one burns them and inhales the smoke. That's still consumption, and it still has an effect on the body and causes a dopamine response, driving people to want more after they come down from the high. Some people have a stronger drive than others.

Additionally, a company doesn't have to learn tactics solely from its own industry. In fact, a smart executive will look for successes in other industries and see if/how they can apply it to their own. Therefore, it's not much of a stretch, let alone tinfoil hat territory, to think that a company like Nestle, Nabisco, or Frito-Lay would look at the fact that Phillip Morris toys with their ingredients in order to get more people to buy their product and get the people who are buying to buy more/more often, and start experimenting with their own, based on the fact that humans have evolved to go after things that taste sweet, salty, and fatty. Get some combination of all three that makes it very hard to resist, because it triggers a dopamine response far beyond what can be found in nature (where sweet, salty, and fatty are rarely found together in a single food item), and you can increase revenue. Like I said, business 101. It's not tinfoil hat, it's smart business.

Just want to come back and say that I'm doing a several day carb depletion as part of a pre-marathon nutrition plan (come Thursday I eat ALL THE CARBS). I have a slight headache and am a little bit foggy and irritable.

Anyone who compares this feeling to actual drug withdrawl is a f*cking moron.

Not all drugs are black tar heroine or crack cocaine and come with got-hit-by-a-train withdrawal symptoms. Alcohol and prescription medications are still drugs, and they can still cause withdrawal symptoms. The withdrawal symptoms vary depending on the specific substance due to how it interacts with a given individual, how much of a tolerance they have, and how much (and for how long) they've been consuming the substance. Even for the same substance, the withdrawal symptoms can vary from person to person. Even things like Tylenol and Ibuprofen can cause what is known as "rebound," or a returning of the symptoms they were taken to relieve, as an effect of stopping them, if you take them too often or for too long.

Additionally, just because you only felt "a little bit foggy and irritable," it doesn't mean those are the only symptoms felt by people, or that the severity with which you've felt it is the only severity level (nor does it mean that they aren't withdrawal symptoms). It's known as "carb flu" for a reason - many of the symptoms include chills, shakiness, nausea, fatigue, irritability, and brain fog - flu-like symptoms. And like anything else, the number and severity of the symptoms depends on the individual.

LOL at thinking alcohol detox tremors or oxy withdrawl are like going without carbs for a few days.

LOL at reading comprehension fail.

I never once said that. In fact, I very specifically said that not all substances have the same withdrawal symptoms as the hard drugs that everyone thinks about when they see the term "withdrawal."

just gonna bold the part where you say that alcohol and pill don't have bad withdrawl symptoms.

also I think you would be happier if you had some toast.

but how many calories are in that black tar heroine? thats the big question...

I only eat poppy. Its natural. Heroin is too processed.

i hear the poppy has the "good" sugar, if you know what i mean...

Not all drugs are black tar heroine or crack cocaine and come with got-hit-by-a-train withdrawal symptoms. Alcohol and prescription medications are still drugs, and they can still cause withdrawal symptoms. The withdrawal symptoms vary depending on the specific substance due to how it interacts with a given individual, how much of a tolerance they have, and how much (and for how long) they've been consuming the substance. Even for the same substance, the withdrawal symptoms can vary from person to person. Even things like Tylenol and Ibuprofen can cause what is known as "rebound," or a returning of the symptoms they were taken to relieve, as an effect of stopping them, if you take them too often or for too long.

LOL at thinking alcohol detox tremors or oxy withdrawl are like going without carbs for a few days.

LOL at reading comprehension fail.

I never once said that. In fact, I very specifically said that not all substances have the same withdrawal symptoms as the hard drugs that everyone thinks about when they see the term "withdrawal."

just gonna bold the part where you say that alcohol and pill don't have bad withdrawl symptoms.

also I think you would be happier if you had some toast.

a) I'm quite happy, actually. Though I'd prefer people actually address the links I provided instead of resorting to logical fallacies. I'll also gladly pass on the toast, I prefer having skin clear of both eczema and acne.

b) I never said that alcohol and pills don't have bad withdrawal symptoms. Even the part you bolded does not say that. In fact, my point was the complete opposite - one does not need to consume illegal drugs to experience addiction and/or withdrawal symptoms. Often, when people think of withdrawal, they think of the dramatic "I feel like I got hit by a freight train" type of withdrawal that may include vomiting, shaking, migraines, etc, regardless of the substance being withdrawn from (and said substance can be something even as common and legal as alcohol or even over the counter meds). My point was that withdrawal from any substance may not be that extreme, but that doesn't mean it's not still withdrawal.