Bench press issues
Replies
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Seriously everyone 8-12 reps is not "high rep" and is generally considered to be the hypertrophy range. He should be able to make gains in that range if everything else lines up. People on this site are way too in love with 5x5.
I think the real thing here is calorie deficit. You have reached the maximum you will be able to lift with the current amount of muscle you have. If you want to get stronger/build more muscle, you will probably have to bulk than cut again.
I go for exactly 8 reps on most of my lifts, bench included, and I make steady gains at that target. I do think 12 is too much, for me 8 is the right target.0 -
Thanks for all your responses. Nice to hear everyone's advice.
In regards to some peoples dumbbell comments, yes I can do bench press much easier with dumbbells. I can comfortably do 8-12 reps with 24kg in each hand, which is why I was expecting to be able to do a 50kg barbell bench.
What I think I'll do is myy 8-12 with dumbbells but my 4-6 rep range with the barbell to increase my strength. Sound good?0 -
Seriously everyone 8-12 reps is not "high rep" and is generally considered to be the hypertrophy range. He should be able to make gains in that range if everything else lines up. People on this site are way too in love with 5x5.
I think the real thing here is calorie deficit. You have reached the maximum you will be able to lift with the current amount of muscle you have. If you want to get stronger/build more muscle, you will probably have to bulk than cut again.
We're talking about strength here and there isn't isn't a direct carry over between size and strength to be honest... There isn't a "maximum amount you can lift given the amount of muscle".0 -
In regards to some peoples dumbbell comments, yes I can do bench press much easier with dumbbells. I can comfortably do 8-12 reps with 24kg in each hand, which is why I was expecting to be able to do a 50kg barbell bench.
Are you counting the bar weight?0 -
In regards to some peoples dumbbell comments, yes I can do bench press much easier with dumbbells. I can comfortably do 8-12 reps with 24kg in each hand, which is why I was expecting to be able to do a 50kg barbell bench.
Are you counting the bar weight?
Yes0 -
In regards to some peoples dumbbell comments, yes I can do bench press much easier with dumbbells. I can comfortably do 8-12 reps with 24kg in each hand, which is why I was expecting to be able to do a 50kg barbell bench.
Are you counting the bar weight?
Yes
Then there's likely some range-of-motion or form issues differentiating the movements. You should be able to do +4kg/10lb on the bench without a problem.0 -
In regards to some peoples dumbbell comments, yes I can do bench press much easier with dumbbells. I can comfortably do 8-12 reps with 24kg in each hand, which is why I was expecting to be able to do a 50kg barbell bench.
Are you counting the bar weight?
Yes
Then there's likely some range-of-motion or form issues differentiating the movements. You should be able to do +4kg/10lb on the bench without a problem.
That's what I thought it could be. I guess I should really record myself..0 -
I suspect form is an issue here too. Benching is not just laying down and pressing weight up, there's a lot to do and execute on. How you position yourself and how you move are very important.
For example, flaring your arms out too far (elbows out) will use your shoulders too much and not engage your chest. So instead of doing a bench press its more like doing a horizontal shoulder press. Worse yet this is a fast track to a shoulder or rotator cuff injury.0 -
An untrained, grown man should be able to bench more than 35 kg for 8 reps. But it's taken you over 4 months. I strongly suspect form issues. You're going to have to fix that.0
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Seriously everyone 8-12 reps is not "high rep" and is generally considered to be the hypertrophy range. He should be able to make gains in that range if everything else lines up. People on this site are way too in love with 5x5.
I think the real thing here is calorie deficit. You have reached the maximum you will be able to lift with the current amount of muscle you have. If you want to get stronger/build more muscle, you will probably have to bulk than cut again.
We're talking about strength here and there isn't isn't a direct carry over between size and strength to be honest... There isn't a "maximum amount you can lift given the amount of muscle".
Physics would beg to differ. And any argument for 5 vs 8 reps is at best based on averages. Switching to 5 reps is not going to solve this problem and it is ridiculous how many people on here think that doing 3 fewer reps per set makes them a "real lifter" or something.0 -
Up the weight with lower reps.
I agree0 -
I never liked flat barbell bench, I started with it and transitioned over to using dumbbells for my power days after about a month. I can handle 155 pounders per hand now, 3-5 reps when I'm bulking. In my opinion dumbbells are far superior for growth and making rapid gains, there's less fear involved with not having a spotter and you can push much harder. I'd say to ditch the barbell and pick up some DBs, but that's just me.
Work on your triceps, the stronger they get the better your bench will get, weighted dips are great for helping your bench.0 -
Seriously everyone 8-12 reps is not "high rep" and is generally considered to be the hypertrophy range. He should be able to make gains in that range if everything else lines up. People on this site are way too in love with 5x5.
I think the real thing here is calorie deficit. You have reached the maximum you will be able to lift with the current amount of muscle you have. If you want to get stronger/build more muscle, you will probably have to bulk than cut again.
We're talking about strength here and there isn't isn't a direct carry over between size and strength to be honest... There isn't a "maximum amount you can lift given the amount of muscle".
Physics would beg to differ. And any argument for 5 vs 8 reps is at best based on averages. Switching to 5 reps is not going to solve this problem and it is ridiculous how many people on here think that doing 3 fewer reps per set makes them a "real lifter" or something.
He is running a deficit, why work in a "hypertrophy" range on the main movement? Would he not benefit more from working both ranges? Specifically a higher rep range on his assistance work as what most programs call for?0 -
You don't really mention the rest of your workout except bench. Are you doing a formal program? Everyone here likes stronglifts. I recently switched to the All Pro beginner workout as described on the bodybuilding.com forum. It is supposedly better when you are on a deficit.
Summary of the program:
A Simple beginner's Routine
You will do 3 work outs per week on non consecutive days. The first work out is your heavy work out. The second work out is your medium work out, use 10% less weight for your work sets. The final work out for the week is your lite work out, use 20% less weight.
Do a lite warm up with 1/4 of your work sets weight. Do a medium warm up with 1/2 of your work sets weight. Do 2 work sets with the same weight. Choose a starting weight and start light.
These are the seven exercises you will be starting with.
Squats
Bench Presses
Bent-Over Rows
Overhead Barbell Presses
Stiff-Legged Deadlifts
Barbell Curls
Calf Raises
You will be running this program on a five week cycle as follows:
The first week do all 4 sets for 8 reps.
The second week do all 4 sets for 9 reps.
The third week do all 4 sets for 10 reps.
The fourth week do all 4 sets for 11 reps.
The fifth week do all 4 sets for 12 reps.
If you got all of the required reps on the fifth week then increase the weight by 10% and
repeat the cycle. If you didn't get all of the reps on the fifth week then repeat the cycle with the same weight. You shouldn't need more than one minute rest between the warm up sets and you shouldn't need more than one minute thirty seconds between the work sets.
Do some cardio and abs work on non weight training days.
Go to the forum and read the first 10 pages or so of the post. There is one that describes how to figure out where to start as far as the weight goes.
I agree that a form check also might be in order,
Mike0 -
He is running a deficit, why work in a "hypertrophy" range on the main movement? Would he not benefit more from working both ranges? Specifically a higher rep range on his assistance work as what most programs call for?
I am not an expert and I don't know exactly which range is best for what he's aiming for. Is the "strength" range really more ideal for deficit training? If his goal is to gain as much strength as possible, he shouldn't eat at a deficit.
Anyway my point was that switching from 8 to 5 reps is probably not going to solve world hunger or whatever his problem was. It's a strangely unpopular opinion around these parts.0 -
Working on a lower rep range allows for nearer to maximal effort on each individual repitition, taxing the muscle more and leading to recruitment of more fast/slow twitch fibers in future, increasing strength.
He is running a deficit, why work in a "hypertrophy" range on the main movement? Would he not benefit more from working both ranges? Specifically a higher rep range on his assistance work as what most programs call for?
I am not an expert and I don't know exactly which range is best for what he's aiming for. Is the "strength" range really more ideal for deficit training? If his goal is to gain as much strength as possible, he shouldn't eat at a deficit.
Anyway my point was that switching from 8 to 5 reps is probably not going to solve world hunger or whatever his problem was. It's a strangely unpopular opinion around these parts.
Most untrained people gain a lot of strength relatively easily because for most of their lives, these fibers are there, but inactive. It's only when you're really pushing the boundaries of development do you actually need the muscle to become larger to gain strength. Neuromuscular adaptation is a slow process.0 -
There are a lot of references to SL5x5 and Starting Strength and that's probably not a bad place to start for you. Aside from the rep range being more supportive of improving overall strength for all lifts involved and as somebody else mentioned above, the barbell row and overhead press do very much compliment the bench press. As I've read from various experts on strength (Wendler, Tate, Lily, Simmons) the bench press is actually a full body movement and not as much a pectoral movement, the triceps probably have more to do with bench strength than anything. If I recall the muscles recruited for the bench and in order of importance it was something like, Triceps, Lats, Deltoids, Pecs. I don't have the book in-front of me but it was along those lines. You can see why having a strong back and shoulders will help improve your bench.0
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Working on a lower rep range allows for nearer to maximal effort on each individual repitition, taxing the muscle more and leading to recruitment of more fast/slow twitch fibers in future, increasing strength.
He is running a deficit, why work in a "hypertrophy" range on the main movement? Would he not benefit more from working both ranges? Specifically a higher rep range on his assistance work as what most programs call for?
I am not an expert and I don't know exactly which range is best for what he's aiming for. Is the "strength" range really more ideal for deficit training? If his goal is to gain as much strength as possible, he shouldn't eat at a deficit.
Anyway my point was that switching from 8 to 5 reps is probably not going to solve world hunger or whatever his problem was. It's a strangely unpopular opinion around these parts.
Most untrained people gain a lot of strength relatively easily because for most of their lives, these fibers are there, but inactive. It's only when you're really pushing the boundaries of development do you actually need the muscle to become larger to gain strength. Neuromuscular adaptation is a slow process.
This is a good explanation.0 -
Working on a lower rep range allows for nearer to maximal effort on each individual repitition, taxing the muscle more and leading to recruitment of more fast/slow twitch fibers in future, increasing strength.
He is running a deficit, why work in a "hypertrophy" range on the main movement? Would he not benefit more from working both ranges? Specifically a higher rep range on his assistance work as what most programs call for?
I am not an expert and I don't know exactly which range is best for what he's aiming for. Is the "strength" range really more ideal for deficit training? If his goal is to gain as much strength as possible, he shouldn't eat at a deficit.
Anyway my point was that switching from 8 to 5 reps is probably not going to solve world hunger or whatever his problem was. It's a strangely unpopular opinion around these parts.
Most untrained people gain a lot of strength relatively easily because for most of their lives, these fibers are there, but inactive. It's only when you're really pushing the boundaries of development do you actually need the muscle to become larger to gain strength. Neuromuscular adaptation is a slow process.
8 versus 5. Pull me a study that shows all these benefits from 5 and proves unquestionably that you can't get them at 8.
If you can, I would also like to see why they didn't just do 1 rep. Because by this logic, that would be the best way to go.0 -
Working on a lower rep range allows for nearer to maximal effort on each individual repitition, taxing the muscle more and leading to recruitment of more fast/slow twitch fibers in future, increasing strength.
He is running a deficit, why work in a "hypertrophy" range on the main movement? Would he not benefit more from working both ranges? Specifically a higher rep range on his assistance work as what most programs call for?
I am not an expert and I don't know exactly which range is best for what he's aiming for. Is the "strength" range really more ideal for deficit training? If his goal is to gain as much strength as possible, he shouldn't eat at a deficit.
Anyway my point was that switching from 8 to 5 reps is probably not going to solve world hunger or whatever his problem was. It's a strangely unpopular opinion around these parts.
Most untrained people gain a lot of strength relatively easily because for most of their lives, these fibers are there, but inactive. It's only when you're really pushing the boundaries of development do you actually need the muscle to become larger to gain strength. Neuromuscular adaptation is a slow process.
8 versus 5. Pull me a study that shows all these benefits from 5 and proves unquestionably that you can't get them at 8.
If you can, I would also like to see why they didn't just do 1 rep. Because by this logic, that would be the best way to go.
There's a little more context behind the concept of doing 4x8 versus 5x5. Neither SL5x5, nor SS have you lifting near maximal weight loads for many many weeks.
Now, if you want to talk about true maximal effort training methods then yes they will absolutely train your body to better handle heavier loads and will have more positive impact in improving your 1RM. Speaking about compound lifts really, not overly effective for arm curls. LOL.
Here's a pretty good study that was re-printed, but I'm not sure if it's everything.
http://www.salisbury.edu/campusrec/Strength/Articles/S & C Article/INTENSITY OF STRENGTH TRAINING FACTS AND FALLACIES - ZATZIORSKY.pdf0 -
Working on a lower rep range allows for nearer to maximal effort on each individual repitition, taxing the muscle more and leading to recruitment of more fast/slow twitch fibers in future, increasing strength.
He is running a deficit, why work in a "hypertrophy" range on the main movement? Would he not benefit more from working both ranges? Specifically a higher rep range on his assistance work as what most programs call for?
I am not an expert and I don't know exactly which range is best for what he's aiming for. Is the "strength" range really more ideal for deficit training? If his goal is to gain as much strength as possible, he shouldn't eat at a deficit.
Anyway my point was that switching from 8 to 5 reps is probably not going to solve world hunger or whatever his problem was. It's a strangely unpopular opinion around these parts.
Most untrained people gain a lot of strength relatively easily because for most of their lives, these fibers are there, but inactive. It's only when you're really pushing the boundaries of development do you actually need the muscle to become larger to gain strength. Neuromuscular adaptation is a slow process.
8 versus 5. Pull me a study that shows all these benefits from 5 and proves unquestionably that you can't get them at 8.
If you can, I would also like to see why they didn't just do 1 rep. Because by this logic, that would be the best way to go.
There's a little more context behind the concept of doing 4x8 versus 5x5. Neither SL5x5, nor SS have you lifting near maximal weight loads for many many weeks.
Now, if you want to talk about true maximal effort training methods then yes they will absolutely train your body to better handle heavier loads and will have more positive impact in improving your 1RM. Speaking about compound lifts really, not overly effective for arm curls. LOL.
Here's a pretty good study that was re-printed, but I'm not sure if it's everything.
http://www.salisbury.edu/campusrec/Strength/Articles/S & C Article/INTENSITY OF STRENGTH TRAINING FACTS AND FALLACIES - ZATZIORSKY.pdf
^nice0 -
3-6 reps builds power but not so much size. Bodybuilding is about strict from, getting as much as you can out of each muscle. The rep range you are using is perfect for building muscle mass. Strength training is a whole different game. Many people bench with the weight too close to the neck. The bar should drop just below the nipples. Shoulders should be back and down. Chest stuck out but not in an unnatural way. Personally i have made much better gains using dumbbells not to mention less stress on the shoulders. Remember the amount of weight doesn't mean anything if its not right. If you want the best workout ever try this once at least. either bench or dumbbell. set up to do 4-5 sets. 8-12 reps. Make sure the weight is set so you can drop 20lbs off of each set really fast. Or if u really like pain only 10lbs off. Now what you do is you take the weight you normally use for your set. Do your first set. Without rest or any time wasted at all. Drop the 10-20lbs and do your second set. Repeat dropping the weight and doing the sets. Tell me how your chest feels after that. Btw if you dont feel it in your chest and instead feel it in your shoulders. Your doing improper form for the exercise. Perfect form reps is the key to Bodybuilding, shame i only learned this after 25+ years of lifting.
Also known as "Burnouts" They are killer as said above. If you have some buddies, get one on each side to pull the weights off as you finish the last rep to get to the next set quicker. It's funny at the end when you try to push just the bar up and you feel and look as if you're lifting something really heavy.
I agree, perfect form is key.0 -
Here's a pretty good study that was re-printed, but I'm not sure if it's everything.
http://www.salisbury.edu/campusrec/Strength/Articles/S & C Article/INTENSITY OF STRENGTH TRAINING FACTS AND FALLACIES - ZATZIORSKY.pdf
This is an opinion piece, not a peer reviewed research article.0 -
Here's a pretty good study that was re-printed, but I'm not sure if it's everything.
http://www.salisbury.edu/campusrec/Strength/Articles/S & C Article/INTENSITY OF STRENGTH TRAINING FACTS AND FALLACIES - ZATZIORSKY.pdf
This is an opinion piece, not a peer reviewed research article.
The research was done in Russia and I don't know how this transcript of the original research, this isn't the original, was transcribed but the work done on Maximal Effort training is by no means opinion, it's very much factual research. Look through some of these books if you want more proof.
A Program of Multi-Year Training in Weightlifting by AS Medvedyev
A System of Multi-Year Training in Weightlifting by AS Medvedyev
Adaptation in Sports Training by Atko Viro
Basic Physics by Karl F. Kuhn
Beyond Stretching Russian Flexibility Breakthroughs by Pavel Tsatsouline
Circuit Training for All Sports by Manfred Scholich, PhD
European Perspectives on Exercise and Sport Psychology by Stuart J. H. Biddle
Explosive Power & Strength by Donald A. Chu, PhD
Explosive Power and Jumping Ability by Tadeusz Starzynski/Henry K Sozanski, PhD
Facts and Fallacies of Fitness by Dr. Mel Siff
Fitness and Strength Training for All Sports by Jurgen Hartmann, PhD
Fundamentals of Special Strength Training in Sports by YV Verkhoshansky
Manage the Training of Weightlifters by Nikolai Petrovich Laputin/Valentin Grigoryevich
Oleshko
Periodization Theory and Methodology of Training by Tudor O. Bompa
Periodization Training for Sports by Tudor O. Bompa
Power Training for Sport by Tudor O. Bompa
Programming and Organization of Training by YV Verkhoshansky
Science and Practice of Strength Training by Vladimir Zatsiorsky
Science of Sports Training by Thomas Kurz
Secrets of Soviet Sports Fitness and Training by Michael Yessis, PhD
Serious Strength Training by Tudor O. Bompa
Soviet Training and Recovery Methods by Rick Brunner/Ben Tabachnik
Sports Conditioning and Weight Training by WM J Stone/WM A Kroll
Sports Restoration and Massage by Dr. Mel Siff/Michael Yessis, PhD
Strength and Power in Sport by PV Komi
Strength Speed and Endurance for Athletes Jurgen Hartmann, PhD
Strong Together by Walter Gain/Jurgen Hartmann, PhD
Supertraining by Dr. Mel
The Naked Warrior by Pavel Tsatsouline
The Training of the Weightlifter by RA Roman
The World Atlas of Exercises for Track and Field by Andrzej
Theory and Methodology of Training by Tudor O. Bompa
Training for Warriors by Martin Rooney
Warm-Up and Preparation for Athletes of All Sports by Zoltan TEnke/Andy Higgins
Weightlifting and Age by LS Dvorkin
Weightlifting Year Book, 1980, 83, 85, Fizkultura I Sport Publishers
Weightlifting Year Book, 1981, Fizkultura I Sport Publishers
In the 1900's when countries started competing in the Olympics the Russians basically dominated the Olympics. Google their medal counts for the Winter Games between 1956 and 1988 and Summery Games between 1952 and 1988, they basically took 1st place every year but a couple in which they were 2nd. Why is that? Their athletes were simply better trained and their training methods centered around max effort lifting. This has been proven time and time again, which is why American athletes and trainers have adopted and improved upon their methods. Louie Simmons, Joe DeFranco, Chad Smith and many others that train college, olympic, and professional athletes employ these methods.0 -
The research was done in Russia and I don't know how this transcript of the original research, this isn't the original, was transcribed but the work done on Maximal Effort training is by no means opinion, it's very much factual research. Look through some of these books if you want more proof.
A Program of Multi-Year Training in Weightlifting by AS Medvedyev
A System of Multi-Year Training in Weightlifting by AS Medvedyev
Adaptation in Sports Training by Atko Viro
Basic Physics by Karl F. Kuhn
Beyond Stretching Russian Flexibility Breakthroughs by Pavel Tsatsouline
Circuit Training for All Sports by Manfred Scholich, PhD
European Perspectives on Exercise and Sport Psychology by Stuart J. H. Biddle
Explosive Power & Strength by Donald A. Chu, PhD
Explosive Power and Jumping Ability by Tadeusz Starzynski/Henry K Sozanski, PhD
Facts and Fallacies of Fitness by Dr. Mel Siff
Fitness and Strength Training for All Sports by Jurgen Hartmann, PhD
Fundamentals of Special Strength Training in Sports by YV Verkhoshansky
Manage the Training of Weightlifters by Nikolai Petrovich Laputin/Valentin Grigoryevich
Oleshko
Periodization Theory and Methodology of Training by Tudor O. Bompa
Periodization Training for Sports by Tudor O. Bompa
Power Training for Sport by Tudor O. Bompa
Programming and Organization of Training by YV Verkhoshansky
Science and Practice of Strength Training by Vladimir Zatsiorsky
Science of Sports Training by Thomas Kurz
Secrets of Soviet Sports Fitness and Training by Michael Yessis, PhD
Serious Strength Training by Tudor O. Bompa
Soviet Training and Recovery Methods by Rick Brunner/Ben Tabachnik
Sports Conditioning and Weight Training by WM J Stone/WM A Kroll
Sports Restoration and Massage by Dr. Mel Siff/Michael Yessis, PhD
Strength and Power in Sport by PV Komi
Strength Speed and Endurance for Athletes Jurgen Hartmann, PhD
Strong Together by Walter Gain/Jurgen Hartmann, PhD
Supertraining by Dr. Mel
The Naked Warrior by Pavel Tsatsouline
The Training of the Weightlifter by RA Roman
The World Atlas of Exercises for Track and Field by Andrzej
Theory and Methodology of Training by Tudor O. Bompa
Training for Warriors by Martin Rooney
Warm-Up and Preparation for Athletes of All Sports by Zoltan TEnke/Andy Higgins
Weightlifting and Age by LS Dvorkin
Weightlifting Year Book, 1980, 83, 85, Fizkultura I Sport Publishers
Weightlifting Year Book, 1981, Fizkultura I Sport Publishers
Strong post. I don't know how anyone can argue against anything Vladimir Zatsiorsky states but I'm sure someone will....He knows 1,000,000x more than anyone on this forum (no offense to anyone...)0 -
Alternate between flat bench barbell and using dumbbells. Once I started incorporating dumbbells more often, my strength and chest size and fullness went through the roof.0
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Although bench press appears to be a very simple exercise, there are a lot of form mistakes that people make which will reduce amount you can lift and place your shoulder joint in a position where injury can occur. I would not come here for advice about how to increase your benchpress. Find someone with some powerlifting background to show you how to do this movement.
As far as rep ranges stick with lower volume low rep ranges if your goal is becoming stronger at least initially. This is not to say that you can't get stronger using an 8-12 rep range. 3 to 5 is better for training your nervous system to recruit a greater percentage of muscle fibers.0 -
Following the advice of a professional is important for both form and results.
I have found this pro-body builder to offer quality advice and inspiration.
Check out: http://www.epicmusclemass.com
Go get gains!0
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